Historic manufactuer bringing hundreds of jobs to State of Mississippi

[SomeGuynTexas]

Kudos to Olin...Mississippi needs good factory jobs.

http://www.thetelegraph.com/news/operations-46767-east-alton.html

EAST ALTON -- Olin Corp. announced today that it is moving its Winchester Centerfire operations and approximately 1,000 jobs from East Alton to Oxford, Miss.

The announcement came just one day after the second of two failed ratification votes by members of the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers, in which employees rejected a union proposal that would have allowed Centerfire Operations to remain in East Alton.

[blm]

1. And East Alton didn't because their workers wanted fair wages?

.

[PavePusher]

You know for a fact that they aren't getting fair wages?

Remember that company that can't stay competitive can't stay in business... and then there are no wages at all. Not enough info in the article to make a call here.

As a side note, on strictly Civil Rights grounds, there's no reason anyone even vaguely connected to the firearms industry should do business within pissing distance of Illinois.

Edit: for spelling.

[blm]

8. hahah....and RevMoon is a leading patriot and statesman, right?

His gun manufacturing makes him a patriot, right?

Some are so easily played politically over RHETORIC. Your right to a gun has NEVER been threatened....unless, of course, you're a convicted felon or mentally disabled. You all just like to PLAY the role scripted for you by the same people who play the pro-life crowd. HAHAHAH....they are masters of filling the empty vessels they need.

[PavePusher]

10. What are you on about? n/t

[AtheistCrusader]

21. From 1994 to 2004 I couldn't buy a rifle with the following safety features.

A flash suppressor that wasn't welded on (safety issue for the shooter in low light conditions)
A collapsing stock (so my wife and I can use the same rifle comfortably, and safely despite differences in arm length)
A pistol grip (ergonomically friendly)
A bayonet lug (light mounting point, again, low light safety feature)

etc.

I couldn't afford any of the inflated prices for pre-ban rifles with these features. Now I can (and have) purchased one.

That ban was BS, and the proposed re-instatement of it in our platform is BS.


By the way, Moon is related to Kahr arms, not Winchester. So I have no idea what you meant by that.

[blm]

36. I know exactly what Moon is involved with....and used his name to point out the absurd standards

gunnies have for what they consider good v evil.

[AtheistCrusader]

38. You made no sense whatever.

Please elaborate.

Or by 'gunnies' do you mean only Republicans that care about firearms? Because quite a lot of Democrats and Progressives have firearms, and think nothing positive of Moon. Some may even own Kahr firearms, which are excellent quality, and design. (I do not, but not for any particular reason)

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

44. A bayonet lug? Really?

I believe by context I understand what a bayonet lug is, a place to put a bayonet.

I'm assuming it's because it makes a gun into an assault weapon.

But a bayonet is a knife.

Why would the addition of a knife make a shooting weapon that can cover hundreds of yards suddenly more dangerous?

[AtheistCrusader]

45. It was part of the AWB. It made no sense to me either.

A list of weapons by name, and any generic or unnamed weapon thus:

Semi-automatic rifles able to accept detachable magazines and two or more of the following:
Folding or telescoping stock
Pistol grip
Bayonet mount
Flash suppressor, or threaded barrel designed to accommodate one
Grenade launcher (more precisely, a muzzle device which enables the launching or firing of rifle grenades)

Semi-automatic pistols with detachable magazines and two or more of the following:
Magazine that attaches outside the pistol grip
Threaded barrel to attach barrel extender, flash suppressor, handgrip, or suppressor
Barrel shroud that can be used as a hand-hold
Unloaded weight of 50 oz (1.4 kg) or more

A semi-automatic version of an automatic firearm

Semi-automatic shotguns with two or more of the following:
Folding or telescoping stock
Pistol grip
Fixed capacity of more than 5 rounds
Detachable magazine

[oneshooter]

58. Don't you relise how many drive by bayonetting it stoped! n/t

[SteveM]

52. Punking. It's what's for dinner. (You can tell by all the 'HAHAHA' stuff.)

5CR/3RD?

[Donnachaidh]

29. so they move to a right to work state and pay less to jump their profit margin

Competitive my great granny's ass - it was to take advantage of the backwards labor regulations in the Deep South. It's all about the profits, babee....

[shadowrider]

30. I will ask this question a second time. (First time was to a different poster)

Where have you seen the wage scale between what is currently being paid and what will be paid, or are you just simply jumping to conclusions?

[Donnachaidh]

32. As someone who lives in the Deep South

I'm very MUCH aware of the differences in pay scales between north and south. And I'm sure that company looking for almost-serf workers does too.

[shadowrider]

35. You ignored the question. Where did you see the wage scale for this company

and what they paid in Illinois and what they're going to pay in Mississippi? Or are you just guessing?

[Donnachaidh]

33. different poster -- really? Two screen names?

Yeah, some folks want to argue with themselves, right?

[shadowrider]

34. Unless you're the poster in #11, yes, I posed the question to two different posters. n/t

[SteveM]

54. Question still pending. Do you have the answer? nt

[RSillsbee]

15. Speaking as a former machinist

This "fair wages" crap is what's sending most manufacturing jobs to India. I've never worked in a union shop and I never will

[tularetom]

2. Sorry but this sucks

The only reason they want to move their operations is to hire cheaper employees.

Well, you get what you pay for. Their quality control is going to take a big dump. And then in ten years they'll shut down their shiny new plant and move the whole shitaroo to Singapore or some goddamn place where they can pay people even less than they do in MIssissippi.

I own several Winchester centerfire rifles including a 94 that I've had since I was 16 years old. I'll think twice before I buy another one.

[PavePusher]

5. The article also mentioned consolidation...

of operations for better efficiency. But they didn't mention any detail.

[shadowrider]

7. You don't know they're going to pay "cheaper wages"

Not enough info to make that determination, but I can tell you, from living in the South, many non-union companies pay comparable wages simply to keep unions out.

I wouldn't doubt what they pay in Mississippi is within 10% of what they pay in Illinois and the cost of living is less expensive.

[tularetom]

11. Not buying that

Why else would they do something as expensive as shutting down an operation, buy a new site, build new facilities and spend a fortune training a new work force if they weren't gonna pay them less?

They sure as shit aren't doing it to improve the quality of their product if they're laying off experienced workers.

[PavePusher]

12. The article distinctly mentions consolidation of some of their processes...

which will save large amounts in operating costs over the years.

Edit: Gawd I can't spell today... sheesh.

[Katya Mullethov]

14. They voted on it .

""" Some of the concessions employees were asked to make included wage freezes for seven years, elimination of vacation bonuses and a fifth week of vacation, reduction of shift premiums and no matching contributions from the company to employees' 401(k) plans . "

Eliminating my fifth week of vacation would really piss me off too . If I ever got a whole week off in the first place .

[Tejas]

60. FIVE weeks vacation?

yikes!

[oneshooter]

13. The taxes are lower in Ol Miss, and they got tired of anti-gun Ill. n/t

[PavePusher]

16. Heck, the second reason has been more than good enough for several manufacturers. n/t

[DonP]

41. Yup, thanks to Blago/Daley and friends

We already lost Les Baer IIRC and Springfield Armory is looking at land in Iowa too.

With bans for the manufacture and possession of the "assault weapons worded so crudely and poorly that even contractors making components for the military would be felons, some big name specialty producers just said "to hell with it" and moved.

Springfield Armory is seriously looking to get out too.

Sadly Quinn is a big supporter of gun control too, along with Madigan and Cullerton that run the legislature, so even with Daley's retirement there is no reason to be encouraged.

Cullerton was asked about the jobs being lost when they moved, and his response was; "We'll get more people that will move to Illinois to get away from gun violence once we ban these".

I'm sure that flocks are on their way to move into gun free Chicago any minute now.

[one-eyed fat man]

46. You know, it's probably a good thing

they don't make politicians piss in a bottle like pilots and aircraft mechanics.

[AtheistCrusader]

22. Local taxes?

Local road infrastructure for employees to get to work?
State incentives? Tax or land?

etc.

[shadowrider]

23. And you saw the wage info where in order to make your determination? n/t

[slackmaster]

17. You think workers in Mississippi will produce work inferior to that produced by Illinois workers?

Is that what you're saying?

[tularetom]

19. I think unskilled untrained workers making $10 per hour

Will produce work inferior to those earning twice that amount.

I don't care whether they're in Illinois, Mississippi, or Bumfuck Egypt.

But thanks for making it about geography.

[RSillsbee]

25. Synthes USA

Hires mostly unskilled workers. Known as button pushers they are trained to load the machine and check parts using simple GO/NO GO gages. Most of the employees make around 12.00$ an hour plus (excellent) benefits. They make far more than their skill level deserves and for the most part they remain at Synthes for their entire working life.

Synthes is the world's leading manufacturer of trauma implant hardware with a bigger market share than all of their competition combined.

I've seen union wages cost too many real jobs to support them. Americans won't pay what union companies have to charge for their products to make a profit, forcing the companies to outsource the jobs overseas to remain competitive.

[slackmaster]

37. So then, you think Olin is going to hire unskilled, untrained people to make firearms?

They'll hire unskilled people to operate industrial equipment, like computer-controlled milling machines, lathes, and grinders? That their plan is to save costs by hiring people who aren't qualified or competent to do the work?

Is that what you're saying?

Maybe they'll all be illiterate too.

:eyes:

[AtheistCrusader]

39. Of course, they'll be the Khyber Pass of American Firearms Manufacturers.

[krispos42]

49. Why not?

Once the machines are set up, you hire some people at low starting wages and start weeding through them, while you have a couple of high-end people to do the teaching, programming, and detailed checking of the QC parts and to answer any questions from the machine operators.



More specifically, you hire somebody like me... a college dropout with mechanical ability. ;-)

[slackmaster]

51. But if you were a member of a union, you'd obviously be more qualified

;-)

[krispos42]

57. Maybe I'd have gotten more than a lousy 56 hours of PTO per year...

...after four years with the company!


And more than 7 paid holidays a year!

[shadowrider]

31. I should be surprised, but I'm not, at the amount of people

Who think the South is inhabited by nothing but toothless rednecks with their beat up pickup truck, a shotgun in a gun rack, their hunting dog in the bed of the pickup and who is married to his sister. On top of that, they're willing to work for next to nothing and only succeed in stealing jobs from up North and make far inferior products in the process.

Like I said, I should be surprised, but I'm not.

[SteveM]

55. Winchester has had a history of poor quality control/management...

Even when the plant went to digital computers in 1969 (well after management's pre-'64 "redesign" of legendary models like the 94 and 70), quality control continued to suffer. When the New Haven plant puked about five years ago, the problems persisted. There is nothing more recalcitrant than dug-in corporate bureacracy, esp. when it finger-points at the workers.

[one-eyed fat man]

18. Yeah it sucks

But Olin hasn't owned anything but the Winchester name for 30 years. Olin makes ammunition but they no longer even produce their own propellants. Winchester powders are now made by Hodgdon, who also makes the old DuPont powders.

Oliver Winchester reorganized the New Haven Arms Company in 1866 and changed its name to the Winchester Repeating Arms Company.

In 1931 Western Cartridge Company (later Olin Corporation) purchased Winchester Repeating Arms and combined with it to form Winchester-Western.

In 1981, The U.S. Repeating Arms Company was formed by Winchester employees to purchase the rights to manufacture Winchester brand rifles and shotguns in New Haven, Connecticut, under license from Olin Corporation.

USRAC went bankrupt in 1989 was taken over by Fabrique Nationale de Herstal (FN in Belgium) In 2006 FN closed the New Haven factory and moved Winchester rifle production to its facilities in South Carolina.

[pipoman]

26. Winchester has a great history

I have spent the last 20 years studying Winchester history from 1918 to 1930 only...written a couple articles, great history.

[Euromutt]

24. Sounds to me like this is an ammunition plant

Olin hasn't owned Winchester Repeating Arms for quite some time, but the company does still own the ammunition business, and given that the article distinguishes between the company's rimfire and centerfire operations, I'm going to go with the assumption that this is about an ammunition plant, not an arms manufacturing plant.

[oneshooter]

28. Winchester stopped making affordable M94's several years ago.

I believe that all of their products are made by Browning now.

http://www.winchesterguns.com/index.asp

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[tularetom]

40. Yup, but I bought mine in 1957

when I was 16.

[one-eyed fat man]

42. I was 15 in 1957.

A Model '94 was a birthday gift from my great uncle. It is hard to convey how proud I felt to have earned the trust represented by that second-hand gun. It was my first center-fire rifle and I still have it. It has put a lot venison on the table.

[tularetom]

43. Bought mine with money I made hauling hay

I think I paid like 75 bucks for it. It was my main deer rifle for years, even when I could afford something newer and shinier that could deliver a bit more stopping power. I haven't used it for a long time except on coyotes but I think I'll take it out, clean it again, replace the stock and give it to my 15 year old grandson.

Or maybe just keep it. I really love those lever action rifles.

[one-eyed fat man]

47. The old black powder numbers are making a comeback.

Black Powder Cartridge Rifle matches are shot at long range and with old single shot rifles. (I use an original 1873 Springfield Army issue rifle.) Over the past couple years "side matches" for lever guns loaded with black powder ammo have become popular at these matches. 1893 Marlins and 1894 Winchesters in .38-55 or .32-40 are pretty popular but you will see Winchester 1876, 1886 and the Marlin 1895 models too. A good challenge, shooting offhand, iron sights.

[tularetom]

48. As far as black powder cartridge rifles go

I've got a Charles Daly "little Sharps" in .38-55.

I've never used it in a match but I have taken a pig with it. It's about three lbs lighter than the original paper cartridge Sharps of the 1850's. As far as I know, only Winchester produces a factory loaded black powder cartridge and I'm not aware of any smokeless cowboy loads available.

I'm a black powder fanatic, but I've only recently gotten into cartridge shooting. I've converted an 1851 Navy cap and ball revolver .36 to .38 LC and I'm working on a Remington New Army .44 now.

I have Hawkens, Kentucky and Pennsylvania rifles and even a .32 cal squirrel gun. I made one concession to the 21st century by buying a Savage ML-10 in line muzzleloader that can fire smokeless and black powder, but I have more fun with the percussion rifles.

As far as my M94 Winchester is concerned, it's a .30-30 and I don't think black powder ammunition was ever produced in that caliber.

At my age, black powder shooting is arguably better and cheaper than sex. I'm sorry I didn't discover it sooner.

[one-eyed fat man]

50. .32 Winchester Special

Was the the Winchester cartridge that was supposedly designed to go either way in the '94. Rifles also had a 1-16 twist in stead of 1-12 the .30-30 does. Buffalo Arms up in Idaho sells quite a bit of black powder loaded factory ammo.

In addition to the "trapdoor" Springfield, I shoot an 1885 Winchester "Hi-wall" in .40-65 and a .577-450 Martini-Henry, all with black powder cartridges. I have not tried the cartridge conversions, but I do shoot a couple of first generation Colts and a '92 Winchester in .44 WCF.

I can't say it's better than sex, but Colts won't get jealous if an S&W .44 Russian shows up. It'll have to be an original, none of Schofield replicas will function past a couple of cylinders loaded with black. I have an 1894 Iver Johnson Safety Hammerless in .38 S&W I shot over 150 black powder cartridges through without cleaning and functioned flawlessly. Those old boys had knowledge we still haven't rediscovered.

[SteveM]

56. Ought-Three .22 (made in 1905) and post-'64 Model 94. Big Difference...

The Ought-Three (for 1903) is a thing of beauty: the let-in from wood to metal is wonderful, and the break-down action comes apart at seams you hardly notice. Still works fine, if you find the old .22 WAR ammo. As for the Model 94 (made in the 1970s), it works well, but the assembly is haphazard, unless you like day light shining between the stock and the tang. The "bluing" has all but worn away on one side, and the barrel hoop fits around magazine tube, barrel and fore end like a hold-down strap on your house wiring. They made these things like a Ford Falcon, even as mass-produced Remington arms (with tape-drive computers and such) looked like Nefertiti's bust in comparison.

Winchester could have done a lot better, but chose not to.

[TheWraith]

3. Unfortunately, this is just moving jobs from one place to another.

If it were someone producing new manufacturing business, or bringing it back from overseas, then it would be much better. As it is, the people they hire in Mississippi are going to be balanced out by the people they lay off in East Alton, who probably made a better wage than the new people in MS will.

The irony is, due to the stringent limitations and requirements on import of firearms, the gun industry is one of the few where manufacturing is done almost exclusively in the US.

[PavePusher]

6. Some of the workers may move with the jobs.

There will likely be some folks they'll need to keep.

[pipoman]

27. I would guess

that if they are building a new plant it will be more modern and mechanized which may require less actual people to produce the same products.

[BootinUp]

4. Hey our widget guy is back, Howdy!

Now he is trying to slyly attack unions instead of regulations and taxes.

Hi conservative.com lurkers!!!! :hi:

[KansDem]

9. Yeah, I remember this guy!

Hates California, but loves Mississippi and Alabama!

Want some of that there no-regulation Gulf shrimp? Throw some heaping helping into a frying pan. No need to use cooking oil: it comes "pre-oiled" courtesy of GOP-deregulated Gulf oil drilling! :9

(Just ignore the adverse health effects as reported by the "librul" media).

[Name removed]

20. Deleted sub-thread

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[Atypical Liberal]

59. more like MOVING hundreds of jobs.

The post title is a bit misleading - it makes it sound like Olin is creating new jobs. In fact they are moving the jobs from East Alton because the Union wouldn't approve a 7-year pay freeze.

[DainBramaged]

61. It amazes me how so many folks take a headline at face value

http://www.goiam.org/index.php/territories/midwest/8034-illinois-machinists-reject-olin-concessions-for-2nd-time


These were machinists, skilled workers, that the company wanted to win the race to the bottom with wages unacceptable to ALL and break the Union. My bet is that the move was planed anyway, and the best way to do it was put it in the laps of the Union by asking for impossible concessions.

Lets see what happens when those good factory jobs wind up in China down the road.


America, cheering corporations to save a few pennies.

[shadowrider]

62. Why, exactly, is asking the union to give up a 5th week of vacation an "impossible concession"? n/t

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

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