Anyone here know about buying guns on the internet?

[Taverner]

As in: Do they mail the gun to the buyer?

Is the shipping time considered the waiting period?

Any other gotchyas?

[Posteritatis]

1. I'd imagine that varies wildly by vendor, no? (nt)

[Crazy Dave]

2. Probably varies state to state but....

You will have to pick the gun up at a licensed dealer and show ID.

[Taverner]

6. Looking at glockworld.com - it seems that's how it works

This would be my first gun, btw...

[Crazy Dave]

7. I actually learned that during the VA Tech massacre

That's how the shooter got his guns.

[Pavulon]

39. He went through the ffl process and background check.

proving that no system is fool proof and has little impact on a person who has decided to murder other people. Not like a gun showed up his house with a bow on it.

Like running a stop sign driving getaway from a bank robbery.

[Crazy Dave]

40. I try to tell people that all the time

It's easier to buy a car and kill someone with it than a gun.

[Taverner]

54. There is no way to have control of all guns - it's physically impossible

There are many guns in the UK, just there are no records of them

[Remmah2]

3. FFL to FFL

You have to find a selling FFL and they ship it to your FFL (for a slight handling fee.) In general the waiting period begins on the recieving end when you fill out your 4473.

[Bonhomme Richard]

4. I have. You order it and..........

in CT they dealer will ship to a FFL ( A local Federally Licensed dealer) You pick it up from him. It usually cost $15 - $20 bucks. Mine was done for free but I know the guy. They fill out all the state and federal paperwork.

[Bonhomme Richard]

5. Typically there is a list of FFL's on the dealers site if...

you need to find one in your area.

[oneshooter]

8. The only one I know of that ships direct to your door in the CMP. n/t

[TheWraith]

9. It can only be shipped to a licensed firearms dealer.

When you pick it up there, you'll undergo the standard full background check. The dealer will charge you a fee for this: around here, it's usually $25. In cities, it can run you up to $125. The exception is if you yourself hold a Federal Firearms License. The most common type is FFL 03, Collector of Curios and Relics. It entitles you to buy antique (50 years or older) guns and get them shipped directly to you. Costs $30 to get one, and it'll probably take you 4-6 weeks to get it back in the mail. I have one, though I haven't gotten the chance to use it yet.

There is no "waiting period" in most states anymore.

[tularetom]

10. Certain types of firearms are exempt from the FFL transfer requirement

But I see you are not buying a pre-1898 or muzzleloading piece.

[chibajoe]

11. With certain exceptions, the gun has to be shipped to a FFL in your state

where it will be transfered to you, unless you are buying it from the http://www.thecmp.org/">CMP, buying it from someone who lives in your own state (assuming your state allows individual transfers), or the gun is a black powder weapon. Depending on where you live, you might find that some FFLs will not accept a gun from an individual, so if you buy from an individual they would have to work with an FFL in their state to ship the gun to your FFL. Finally, I'm pretty sure the waiting period starts from when you fill out the 4473 form, not from when they ship the gun.

[Goldstein1984]

12. I recommend private sale: citizen-to-citizen

No FFL is involved.
No paper trail is left.
No laws are broken.

Of course, each person has to decide on their own how much of a paper trail they want. Since Bush began his assault of civil liberties, I like to minimize mine, and I've seen nothing to change that practice since.

[Taverner]

13. Like through Craigslist?

I'll bet eBay has some, but I'll bet they're more expensive though. Everything is more expensive on eBay.

[RSillsbee]

14. You can't buy a firearm on craigslist or ebay

But, depending on your state, you may be able to purchase a firearm privately through the want ads or at a gun show.

Assuming, you find what you want in the classifieds

[krispos42]

17. Craigslist doesn't allow people to post ads to buy or sell guns.

Just FYI.

[Goldstein1984]

30. Gun shows will usually have a few private sellers

Community bulletin boards, newspapers, even garage sales. If you have friends who work for large companies, they often have internal swap meet systems for employees to buy and sell. You can even just go to a sporting goods store and mention to them that you are looking for a private sale firearm, and sometimes they know people trying so sell something so they can buy something else.

I recently picked up a little .32 Beretta used in new condition, and I ended up paying slightly more than new price because no paper trail is a very desirable selling point these days.

eBay and Craigslist do not allow firearm advertising. It isn't out of any moral commitment, just fear of being sued if someone abuses a firearm purchased with them as an intermediary.

Ignore the stigma of buying at a gun show. Guns are just tools. Yes, they are abused by some, but so are a lot of other things. Yes, you'll meet a lot of "gun nuts" at gun shows, the same way you'll meet a lot of Star Trek nuts and a Trekkie Convention. Probably the most frightening conversation I've ever heard was in a local gun shop, and it was between the owner, two GIs, and an Anchorage Police Officer. The venue is sort of irrelevant.

[S_B_Jackson]

59. Not through E-bay or Craigslist....

E-bay in particular is very anti-gun and it is a violation of Paypal's terms of use, if they find out that a firearm is involved, they'll freeze both yours and the sellers accounts, and retain the funds.

There are any number of reputable, on-line dealers who will sell to you, and ship to the FFL of your choice. Easiest way to locate an FFL is to contact your gun range or local pawn shop....most brick and mortar gun shops aren't too keen on handling only transfer that they are not the seller of the firearm.

[old mark]

15. Guns go from licensed dealer to another licensed dealer, who will

charge you a fee to do the paperwork. If the gun and your area require a waiting period, it starts when you do the paperwork and pay the fees. There is really no difference.
Exceptions are: If the gun is a Curio and Relic (it is made before a certain date and is a "collectable") and the buyer has a Federal Collector's license...in those cases, the gun may be shipped to the buyer's home, but it must be logged into his collection book, which is subject to Federal inspection at any time (as is the collector's home and or storage facility).

The other exception is for black powder non cartridge guns, which are not legally considered guns under the various Federal firearms control acts.

There are many state laws that affect this as well, which you have to be aware of before you order.

I did buy a handgun online several years ago. It cost an extra $40 to a local FFL dealer for me to actually get it - I had him fax a copy of hs FFL number on a special form before the seller would ship it, and it was shipped to his shop, marked to my attention. The background check and all state and federal paperwork was done in his shop and paid for before I could take delivery of the gun.
It was exactly as if I had bought it directly from the local shop, except it cost me $40 more. We have no "waiting period" or limit to the number of guns I can buy at one time here in PA

It is by no means a "loophole" if that is what you are looking for.

added: Guns ship via UPS, who like to get them shipped overnight - if they are stolen in transit, UPS might be liable.

mark

[krispos42]

16. This link will help

Gunbroker.com is big eBay-style firearms site. This goes to their "Tools for Buyers" section.

http://www.gunbroker.com/User/ToolsForBuyers.aspx


Basically, if it's interstate, the gun must go from FFL to FFL.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

18. Ebay/Craigslist prohibit firearm sales... Here's a few sites to buy guns from:

Large internet forum about guns. They have two extensive "equipment exchange" forums
www.ar15.com

You mentioned you were looking for a Glock. Here's the forum to find a used/new one
www.glocktalk.com

Other well known firearm forums with alot of traffic
www.snipershide.com
www.silencertalk.com
www.thehighroad.com

Ebay auction or classified Ads style sites. Typically pricey just like real eBay
www.subguns.com
www.gunbroker.com
www.gunsamerica.com

If you are buying a modern firearm (not antique, blackpowder, or CMP) from out of state it will have to be shipped to yoru loacl FFL dealer where you will sign for it and undergo the NICS check. Depending on your state or local dealer, you may have to have the seller ship from a valid FFL dealer as well. Depending on your state, you may likely the firearm from an in-state seller in person with no dealers involved. Depending on your state, rifles and/or pistols may be shipped directly to you if the seller is within the same state as you.

It really comes down to your state laws... but you can never go wrong with doing the transfer through your local FFL dealer either via mail or in-person and filling out the form 4473.

[Travis_0004]

19. You can also get a C&R liscense, and recieve guns (40 years old) straight to your house

You won't get any modern guns, but if you collect older guns, they can be shipped straight to your house with the right license.

[Taverner]

20. Do they still work just as well?

Like, could I get a WWII German Luger at some kind of affordable price?

[DonP]

21. You're going to find the term "affordable" very flexible

Lugers have become true collectors items that run well into multiple thousands for some models, like the artillery models.

To answer your first question. Older firearms, taken reasonably good care of, are very usable. I have a1942 Garand and a 1920's vintage Springfield '03 that I shoot regularly in competition events. They both work as good as new.

Older Mausers. Enfields, Mosin-Nagants and most other WWII vintage rifles also hold up well over the decades with reasonable care.

Handguns can be another story, but the P-38 German pistols are very serviceable, but the prices have gone way up in the last few years. Soviet era Makarovs are good, reliable handguns but take a slightly different 9mm cartridge that can be hard to find in some areas and even they have gone way up recently. I've heard that some Maks are better than others, e.g. Russian, better than Polish or vice versa.

Any decent, shootable US 1911 in .45 ACP from the C&R era is going to be very pricey. I saw two in Cabela's Gun Library last weekend and each was going to $1,750 and they were very rough and shot out.

Tell us what you are planning to use it for, home defense, target shooting, competition, hunting?

There are enough of us here that represent different facets of the shooting sports that somebody can help you find what you're looking for and give you some probably price ranges.

[Taverner]

22. Home defense and Target shooting mostly

I have always believed in the right to bear arms, but never owned. Learned how to shoot from my dad, who's a cop.

I would like to shoot targets too - it is fun. No one can ever say shooting paper targets isn't.



Basically, this last election kind of led me to think, we liberals and progressives SHOULD arm ourselves. Lock em down and make em safe, but we do need to defend ourselves. Even here in California.

[RSillsbee]

36. Just to throw this out

Before buying a gun sight unseen on the web I would go down to my local gunshop and handle several.
Rent some (if possible)andtry them out. Find what works for you then look for that.

I also wouldn't look for some weird off the wall caliber that is impossible to find if I were only going to have one gun.

[Atypical Liberal]

48. On choosing a firearm.

If you are looking for a low-cost firearm for home defense, you might consider a shotgun. They can be had for about $200.

If you are set on a pistol, Hi-Point makes a low-cost pistol, the C9, that is 9mm and costs about $100.

Many old firearms that qualify as Curio and Relic firearms are cheap, but many are not. Some of them shot odd calibers that might be hard to get ammunition for.

For a first firearm, I recommend a .22. Cheap ammo, easy to shoot and learn.

[Ter]

60. It must be nice to live in a place that allows firearms

Since moving to Manhattan, well, it's a dictatorship here. Illegal gun laws everywhere.

[Travis_0004]

23. You can buy a gun for as cheap as 70.00

A mosin Nagant will run you about 70.00. There are many other guns you can get, some for 100, some for a few thousand. A luger would not be cheap, since they are collectible.

[Taverner]

24. I just want a safe, lockable yet useful gun

[Travis_0004]

25. Without knowing more details, my reccomendation would be a 10/22

Do you want a rifle or handgun? Is this just for target shooting, or home defense, or other uses?

For a first gun, .22 is usually the best choice, effectively no recoil, cheap ammo that is easy to find.

If you went with a .22 rifle, you could buy one for 200.00 or so at a sporting goods store. (Dicks, if you have one by you)

[Taverner]

26. Handgun, Glock 9mm

I've shot one before, and I loved it

It worked, and I hit all my targets with it

Granted, my Dad taught me, and with a .22 pistol

But this thing was lightweight, it could shoot, and everything is very precise

To the point of mortally wounding an assailant, rather than killing them

[Travis_0004]

27. Good choice

Glock is very reliable, and a great gun.

I don't understand your last line.

To Mortally wound is to kill, and 9mm (or .22) are both lethal rounds. The standard handgun issued by the the army is 9mm.

[Taverner]

28. OK some guy is off his meds, This guy should be stopped, not killed

Aim for his knees....

Guarantee he's stopped, but not dead

[ManiacJoe]

29. That would be illegal in most jurisdictions.

If you are just "shooting to wound", then you are not in fear for your life; thus you should not be shooting at all.

[Taverner]

31. OK now THAT'S FUCKED UP!

There are those of us who are dually committed to self defense and nonviolence

The way I see, I would rather wound someone than kill him

Unless killing was the only option

[oneshooter]

33. But by wounding him, it shows that you were NOT in fear for your life. n/t

[TheWraith]

53. To add to that, "shooting to wound" is pretty much a myth.

The idea that you can easily shoot someone in a limb, or shoot the gun out of someone's hand, is a Hollywood invention to make gunfights look more dramatic. Maybe an expert pistol marksman could do that, but most people--including probably 95% of law enforcement and regular pistol shooters--can't. Realistically, if you shoot someone in the leg or the shoulder, you can very easily kill them by severing one of the major blood vessels. Or you can miss entirely, and they kill you. As everyone else here is pointing out, do NOT shoot unless you're being threatened, and then shoot to kill. If you're not willing to defend yourself with lethal force, you shouldn't be using a gun.

[jancantor]

34. As a practical matter...

In almost any scenario where you can have the time and precision aim to TRY to wound vs. kill, it probably wasn't a justified deadly force shoot anyway. There also is not really much of a practical difference between a shot intended to stop and not kill vs. a shot intended to stop, regardless of whether it kills. If you can aim and confidently hit the knee in a true deadly force scenario, then you are a superhero.

Think about it. If the guy is running at you with an edged weapon, trying to shoot the knees would be suicidal. The time difference between him entering the ok to shoot zone vs. him stabbing you is quite small. You can't afford to take risky shots at the knee, not to mention it is NOT a guaranteed stop even if you hit it.

If he's shooting at you, then shooting him in the knee is insane because (especially if he is hyped up), it's not going to stop him from continuing to shoot at you.


You are not supposed to shoot to kill OR shoot to wound. You are supposed to shoot to stop. Generally speaking, the best bet is center mass. The only SURE instant stop is to sever the spinal cord. That's pretty rare. A head shot below the forehead area and above the upper teeth is also usually a quick stop, but that's a very small target. Many conventional rounds can fail to penetrate the skull above the eyes, or be slowed down enough by the teeth to make stopping not so much of a sure thing.

[Pavulon]

38. Use pepper spray. Firearms are to be used as lethal force. Anything about knees

whatever is not only not realistic but a danger to others as you will be sending rounds past a target. If you fire a pistol you aim for center mass. If a situation actually warrants the use of a firearm it should be used as designed.

This may or may not kill. It is designed to stop a person from doing what they were doing. If they are busy stabbing you or shooting at you, center mass is the reasonable response.

If you can not come to terms with that you MUST not consider a firearm for self defense.

[RamboLiberal]

56. Shooting to wound is movie shit

You shoot for center mass till the threat is stopped. If center mass doesn't stop the threat (body armor or heavy clothing or torso) then shoot for the head. You have to put as many rounds into the assailant as it takes to stop them.

If you think you can shoot to wound IMHO you are foolish and should not even consider getting a firearm.

If you are not prepared for whomever you shoot could die then you are not ready to use a gun for self defense.

In fact with that attitude you don't want to kill, you could very well end up being the victim of your own firearm.

That being said, if you are determined to get a firearm I'd suggest finding a reputable local dealer & if you cannot afford a new firearm get a good used firearm.

Keep to a good brand. Glock, Smith & Wesson, Springfield, Taurus, Sig Sauer, Ruger, etc.

Don't buy some relic or old or cheap POS that may jam or fail on you at the critical moment. I've seen enough garbage guns on the range that make me cringe.

For self defense get something 9mm or above. A revolver is the best choice for a gun that is going to spend time just sitting loaded and unused. If you want to do a lot of range shooting then a pistol is a bit more fun IMHO.

Get it legally. Make sure you follow the laws of your state in getting a firearm. I don't advocate private sales that do not go through an FFL.

Find a good handgun course. The NRA has some excellent, reasonable classes. It's worth it too to take a course in the legal implications of firearms use in your state. Laws can vary greatly state to state.

[Euromutt]

61. If it's any consolation, gunshot wounds from handguns are fatal about 25% of the time

That's even taking into account use of hollowpoint ammunition, and the statistic's at least 15 years old; trauma care has made huge strides since then.

As others have said, you don't shoot to kill, you shoot to stop, and the most reliable way of stopping him by means of a handgun is to put hollowpoints into his upper torso (lungs and heart area) until he falls down. If the local paramedics have a good response time, he'll have a decent chance of surviving.

[PavePusher]

35. Knees.... Hmmmm..

Very hard target to hit under any stress.

Major arteries and veins in a concentrated area.

Permenant crippling injury almost guaranteed. (Better than dead I suppose, but see above...)

I don't think youve thought this through completely, or talked to/read anyone knowledgeable about self-defense. Please do some research.

[proteus_lives]

41. If you're going to shoot someone, shoot to kill.

Never, never point a weapon at someone unless you're willing to kill them.

Aiming for hands, knees is stupid movie stuff and will get you killed.

[X_Digger]

45. Small correction- shoot to stop.

The goal is to stop the threat of grievous bodily harm, not to kill. If they happen to die as a result, so be it.

I know you know this, just wanted to clarify for anyone reading who might not know.

[krispos42]

64. Then some grizzly-bear-strength pepper spray might be more to your liking

Or a Taser, perhaps.



Guns are lethal force. If you're not ready to shoot to kill, don't confront somebody with it.

Police nightstick, maybe.

[tortoise1956]

43. You might want to look at Springfield, too...

I have two XD40s and I swear by them.

Also, if you are looking at self-defense, shoot a .40 caliber handgun and see how you like it. Much more stopping power than a 9mm. I went to the .40 after the next-door neighbor had a drive-by shooting (9mm used), and the bullets didn't even go through his hollow-core front door.

[RSillsbee]

46. XDs aren't legal in California last I heard EOM

[RamboLiberal]

57. Springfield makes a CA legal XD

[Euromutt]

62. Some are, some aren't

I believe the two-tone models are not on the CalDoJ's approved list, but the all-black ones are. This was a point of contention in some court case not too long ago, as was the fact that the Glock 21 is approved, but the 21SF is not.

[jancantor]

32. Not trying to bust your chops here

but the definition of MORTALLY wounding somebody IS to inflict a wound that kills them.

Think about it... Morte, Mortal, Immortal... what's the common theme here? :)

[RSillsbee]

37. Mortally wounding an assailant, rather than killing them

Is there a difference?

If you ever have to shoot at a human being you shoot to stop the threat and you keep shooting until he/she is no longer a threat.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

52. Until he/she is no longer a threat??

What if they are threatening to bleed all over my carpets?
Should I shoot them some more?

[RSillsbee]

55. As long as they are on their feet

and still pressing the attack you shoot.

Do you somehow think the bad guy will take pity on you?

[tortoise1956]

42. I've used gunbroker.com before,

They mailed it to a local FFL who turned it over to me. Pretty easy, actually.

[oneshooter]

44. I have used Auction Arms quite a bit.

No problem with it, they have a mandatory 3 days to check the arms out(no firing allowed). Only problem I have had was a 1943 Turkish Mauser with bad headspace. Sent it back(my ticket) and they repaired it and shipped it back and refunded me my shipping costs.


http://www.auctionarms.com/


Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[benEzra]

47. It's shipped directly to your local Federal Firearms Licensee, who conducts the background check

and handles the transfer paperwork. The process is exactly the same as if you bought a new gun from the dealer, except that the gun comes to the dealer from a private party instead of a wholesale distributor.

If you're in a state with a waiting period, the wait commences when you first fill out the purchase paperwork, I imagine. That will be after the gun arrives at the dealer.

[Atypical Liberal]

49. How to buy a gun through the mail

In order to buy a modern, cartridge-shooting firearm through the mail, you will send the buyer the money and then they will ship the firearm, by overnight commercial carrier, to a local firearm dealer who has an FFL license. This is required by law. Once there, you will have to pay a transfer fee, usually $25 or so, they will run you through the NICS background system, and you take delivery of your firearm.

Blackpowder firearms can be shipped directly to your home.

If you have a Curio and Relic license, you can take delivery of certain qualifying antique firearms directly to your home through the mail.

If you simply meet the person over the internet and arrange the sale, you can meet in person and buy the firearm directly with no paperwork. This is legal.

[RamboLiberal]

58. I don't think that is legal in all states

You better check your laws. I understand for instance in my state of PA all handguns have to go through an FFL. And I would not want to run the risk of a hot gun transfer. I'd rather have some paperwork to back me up in case I ever have to use that gun.

[Euromutt]

63. Re: sales between private parties, ONLY within the same state

Sales between private parties are only legal if both parties are residents of the same state. As a resident of Washington state, I cannot legally buy a firearm directly from someone resident in Oregon or Idaho without going through an FFL.

And as RamboLiberal rightly points out, some states require all handgun transfers to go through an FFL, and California requires damn near every transfer to go through an FFL, IIRC.

[Kennah]

50. I actually bought an AK rifle on Ebay

This was back in mid 1998--before Ebay banned the sale of guns--and here is what I recall of the details.

I bid on the rifle, and I won. I lived in Florida at the time, and the seller was in, IIRC, Illinois.

Over a period of about 6 weeks--no exaggeration--there were calls and Emails back and forth between me and the seller, calls between me and my local FFL in Florida, calls between my local FFL and the Illinois FFL.

Rifle had to transfer from the Illinois seller to the Illinois FFL. Then from the Illinois FFL to the Florida FFL. Then from the Florida FFL to me. Because it was a mean, nasty AK semiautomatic rifle, Florida had an additional 3 day waiting period. However, because I had a Florida Concealed Weapon or Firearm License, that 3 day wait was waived under law.

Interstate sales or transfers of any gun have to go through an FFL. A private individual can buy a rifle or shotgun from an FFL in a contiguous state--assuming the two contiguous states in question don't have additional rules restricting the sale. If you want a handgun, you must buy in state.

[oneshooter]

51. I never had a buy/sell take over 6 days, including shipping.

Except once. I sold a 1755 French musket to a museum in Canada. Four MONTHS to complete the paperwork for both governments, including 6 letters warning me that it was illegal to ship ASSAULT WEAPONS to Canada. The package I sent to both governments contained 20 photos of the weapon,crate, weapon in crate, and markings on crate.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

And I ain't doin that again!