RKBA and Liberalism

[Columbia]

Most of us here believe that true liberalism supports protecting all civil rights and personal freedoms including the right to keep and bear arms.

The quintessential Democrat, John F. Kennedy, was a friend to gun owners and even a NRA life member (http://www.nramemberscouncils.com/jfk-nra1c.shtml).

However, it's obvious that somewhere in history the current has reversed course and the Democratic Party platform has shunned gun rights and wholeheartedly embraced gun control.

When and why did this happen?

Do you think this will ever change? If so, how is it going to come about?

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[MrBenchley]

5. If a gun fetish is so liberal, you have to wonder why

the RKBA crowd keeps dredging turds out of right wing cesspools like CNS, Newsmax, the Washington Times, etc. to support their case.

[alwynsw]

52. Gun fetish?

What's the problem with a fetish? I like jewelry.

Other types of fetish possibly? I don't see the sexual draw of any firearm, nor are they magical.

[MrBenchley]

3. Gee, whatever happened to that Kennedy guy?

Oh yeah, some asswipe with a gun shot him. And the corrupt gun industry started fighting to make sure something like that could happen again.

He had a younger brother who served as attorney general in Camelot to carry on that vision. Wonder whatever happened to him?

"When and why did this happen? "
It happened somewhere about the time the pro-segregation crowd fell into disgrace and began spouting their bogus "gun rights" rubbish as a mask for what they really wanted to talk about, for pretty obvious reasons.

Meanwhile, which politician today makes a big deal of HIS NRA life membership?

Oh yeah, it's John AshKKKroft, who made his name and built his constituency fighting to keep Kansas City schools segregated.

[RoeBear]

4. If the Gun Control Act of 1968...

...The Brady Bill of 1993 and The Assault Weapon Ban of 1994 had all been in effect prior to 1963 would the assasination not have happened?

[MrBenchley]

6. If bullshit was bucks

the NRA wouldn't be $100 million in the hole.

[demsrule4life]

7. You be rich?

[MrBenchley]

9. No, but then I back up what I say

and I don't have to depend on lying right wing shitheels like John Stossel and Mary Rosh.

[RoeBear]

51. "I back up what I say"

let's see now, I ask:

"If the Gun Control Act of 1968, The Brady Bill of 1993 and The Assault Weapon Ban of 1994 had all been in effect prior to 1963 would the assasination not have happened?"

And your reply is:
"If bullshit was bucks the NRA wouldn't be $100 million in the hole."

And then you have the nerve to say:
"I back up what I say"

[MrBenchley]

62. I back up what I say

[RoeBear]

8. Great answer...

...thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Wanna try again?

[CO Liberal]

13. Possibly Not - Too Hard to Tell

I don't remember if Oswald had a criminal record that would have barred him from purchasing a gun. Remember that he bought that gun through an ad in a magazine, which only shows how ridiculously lax the rules were back then.

[RoeBear]

15. I don't recall a criminal record being mentioned...

...but you think if he hadn't been able to buy the gun through mail order that he wouldn't have committed the crime?

[Withergyld]

19. I buy guns mail order legally

amd without a background check.
:o





I have a type 03 FFL (Colector of Curios and Relics)

This allows me to buy certain weapons without a NICS check and have them mailed directly to my house. I can also buy from other FFL holders without a NICS check.

[MrBenchley]

10. By the way

It's hilarious to hear the crowd that solemnly and regularly posts crap frrom Newsmax and CNS musing about "true liberalism."

[Name removed]

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[MrBenchley]

12. Exactly so...

Here's a sample of the gun rights brand of "true liberalism":

"Reno, Nevada-- The National Rifle Association, holding its annual convention in this dry desert city, took an opportunity Sunday to demonize the gay and lesbian community with inflammatory homophobic rhetoric.
Anti-gun talk show host Rosie O'Donnell was called a "freak" by one speaker for her recent admission that she's a lesbian. O'Donnell had a much publicized disagreement with pro-gun actor Tom Selleck in 1999 on her talk show. Selleck walked off the show during taping over O'Donnell's remarks.
Debbie Schlussel, a frequent guest on The Howard Stern Show and an avid supporter of the NRA referred to O'Donnell when she said, "She's not cool. She's a freak." Schlussel went on to bash actor Jude Law who recently admitted in an interview that he hesitated to handle a gun in the filming of his latest movie fearing it would contribute to people thinking guns were cool. Schlussel referred to the heterosexual Law as a "girly-man".
Kelly Anne Conway, a conservative pollster, droned on for some time about how the "liberal" media has forced changes in the public school curriculum that put gay and lesbian tolerance ahead of the basic studies of math, English and History. "They're so worried now about how many mommies Heather has that (the teachers) run out of time" Conway went on to state venomously that gay and lesbian issues aren't important to "real" Americans.
Grover Norquist, an NRA Board Member and columnist for American Spectator Magazine, not to be outdone, put forth the barb; "we don't have annual parades for gun owners so everyone can appreciate that gun ownership is an alternative lifestyle and look at how great we are." He also quipped that liberal Americans "don't want (men) to date women." "

http://gaytoday.com/garchive/events/050102ev.htm

"Gun owners were considerably above the national level in their belief that abortion is manslaughter by a 59% to 31% margin. Non gun-owners were more evenly split on the question with 47% thinking abortion is manslaughter and 40% who felt it wasn’t manslaughter."
--Zogby/O'Leary poll quoted with approval here by the RKBA crowd

"Apartheid isn't that cut and dry. All men are not created equal."
--NRA board member Ted Nugent

"Los Angeles and Ho Chi Min City have declared themselves sister cities. It makes sense they are both Third World metropolises formerly occupied by Americans."
--NRA board member Jeff Cooper

[MrSandman]

21. Is the poll biased or is it now valid.

"MrBenchley (1000+ posts) Tue Jan-20-04 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #55

57. Right wing horseshit(sic) from Rush's favorite pollster

Edited on Tue Jan-20-04 10:32 AM by MrBenchley
"Sara Brady played "kissy face with dishonest scum" like the republican party"
Actually, almost all of the Brady Center's donations since 1990 have gone to Democrats. Furthermore, the politicans(sic) Brady gave suppport(sic) to also supported a whole bunch of liberal causes, while the donations of the gun lobby went to the right wing scum of the earth.

But hey, don't let any facts get in your way while you're ranting about how awful it is somebody pointed out what a stinking load of Republican propaganda this crap-ass poll is..

"This just goes to show where the priority of some anti-gunners is."
Gee, it isn't us trying to pass off transparently right wing horseshit(sic) as fact...it's the RKBA crowd. AGAIN.

"Its simply not enough no matter what you do"
You mean like produce an absurdly slanted poll in conjunction with a humhole(sic) who used to do direct mail for the NRA?

"Sounds verry(sic) tolerant and liberal to me."
Yeah, but YOU'RE trying to pretend this crap from Limbaugh's favorite pollster is liberal.

"The poll results suggest that the U.N. most likely harmed itself on its decision to not assist the U.S. with respect to Iraq."

“Do you agree or disagree that by removing prayer in school, by removing the words under God from the Pledge of Allegiance, and fighting the display of the Ten Commandments or a nativity scene, we have eliminated our moral compass in daily decision-making?”

"Gun owners were considerably above the national level in their belief that abortion is manslaughter by a 59% to 31% margin. Non gun-owners were more evenly split on the question with 47% thinking abortion is manslaughter and 40% who felt it wasn’t manslaughter."

Good thing it's not a biased poll, or anything....in a pig's eye."






If one is to accept one premise of poll as valid, the poll is valid> you

[MrBenchley]

22. The RKBA crowd was pretending it wasn't horseshit

Which shows what a right wing crock the RKBA position is...

[MrSandman]

56. So if you are accepting this arument...

"Gun owners were considerably above the national level in their belief that abortion is manslaughter by a 59% to 31% margin. Non gun-owners were more evenly split on the question with 47% thinking abortion is manslaughter and 40% who felt it wasn’t manslaughter."
--Zogby/O'Leary poll quoted with approval here by the RKBA crowd
---

Are you accepting the poll now. Or are you using what you believe to be horse shit to advance your views?

[MrBenchley]

58. No, just pointing out that it's right wing horseshit

being passed out as fact by the RKBA crowd....as usual.

[MrSandman]

59. Then it has no bearing on this topic.

[MrBenchley]

63. The hell it doesn't...

It shows what a right wing pantload the entire RKBA movement is...

[alwynsw]

23. Using that logic

I suppose it would be agreable with you if your right to own anything were abolished? Private ownership of real and personal property is a bedrock of a free socitey.

[MrBenchley]

24. RKBA "logic" or whatever it is

No wonder you guys think Mary Rosh is a scientist...

[CO Liberal]

14. Close But No Cigar

Most of us here believe that true liberalism supports protecting all civil rights and personal freedoms including the right to keep and bear arms.

What you are advocating is NOT "liberalism" per se - it's "libertarianism". A completely different animal.

[RoeBear]

17. Libertarians happen to support abortion and gun rights...

...it's their economic ideas that differ so greatly from the Democratic Party.

[CO Liberal]

34. The Libertarians Out Here in Colorado...

...tend to oppose abortion, and also oppose government restrictions on it.

SO at least out here in The Centennial State, libertarians appear to be pro-gun and anti-abortion.

(I'm basing this on the Libertarian Party spokespeople who have appeared on local talk radio shows.)

[MrBenchley]

44. Of course in Colorado, you've got Libertarian Rick Stanley

Who also believes in threatening judges with his guns...which just got him some time in the jug....

He's REAL liberal....NOT.

[MrBenchley]

18. What's the difference

between a libertarian and an ordinary right wing loony?
A libertarian has a modem.

[alwynsw]

27. I believe that liberalism is what is being advocated neo-liberalism is

probably a better term for todays liberals. Allow me to explain.

I believe that my cousin is the only conservative in the family. I grew up in a Democratic household. My grandparents and great grandparents on both side were democrats. They all owned firearms. I own firearms. Most of my family, extended as well owns firearms.

The Dems began as a new party led by Jefferson. Their cause was for the little guy - mostly farmers. (They called it the Republican party. It became the Democratic-Republican Party, then the Democratic Party. No need to go into why the Republican name was used. To anyone is familiar with our form of government, it's obvious.)

The roots of the party were primarily agrarian. That shifted in the latter half of the 20th century to become primarily urban. Firearms are a necessity on a family farm for everything from hunting to killing predatory wildlife that attacks stock and crops. No party that's formed for the farmer would ever advocate gun control. No, not even handguns. Ever try shooting a fox that's running around a henhouse with a shotgun? You'll kill more chickens than the fox swinging the barrel around.

The party's demographics have shifted. Many values have shifted with those demographics.

[MrBenchley]

30. Amazing

you can find all sorts of right wing loonies on the web claiming to be "classical liberals" now...and of course, that's a steaming pantload...

http://students.washington.edu/right/1-29-02/conservatives.htm

http://www.ashbrook.org/publicat/oped/owens/01/liberals.html

http://truthnews.com/world/2003050025.htm

[alwynsw]

33. I made no such claim

Just pointing out facts. Sorry you don't seem to like the truth.

Take a history class.

[MrBenchley]

37. Hey...

I just pointed out that similar revisionist history is common in right wing circles....

"Sorry you don't seem to like the truth."
Hahahahahahahaha.....

[alwynsw]

39. No revisionism to it.

Take a history class.

[MrBenchley]

42. Yeah, ri-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-ght.

[alwynsw]

43. [b]"Yeah, ri-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-ght."[/b] Won't change history

regardless of how much you may want it to.

Since you seem to want to ignore established fact about the Party, perhaps you should choose another whose history is more to your liking.

[MrBenchley]

45. Neither will your revision

Gee, I'm quite happy in the liberal wing of the Democratic party...where gun control is sensible and nobody's trying to pretend a gun fetish is prerequisite for membership.

Of course, we also don't buy the horseshit from Newsmax and crap like the phony English bloodbath that the RKBA crowd tries to peddle here every day.

[alwynsw]

46. Once again, no revison on my part.

Thomas Jefferson founded the Democratic Party in 1792 as a congressional caucus to fight for the Bill of Rights and against the elitist Federalist Party. In 1798, the "party of the common man" was officially named the Democratic-Republican <insert> Party and in 1800 elected Jefferson as the first Democratic President of the United States. Jefferson served two distinguished terms and was followed by James Madison in 1808. Madison strengthened America's armed forces — helping reaffirm American independence by defeating the British in the War of 1812. James Monroe was elected president in 1816 and led the nation through a time commonly known as "The Era of Good Feeling" in which Democratic-Republicans served with little opposition.

The election of John Quincy Adams in 1824 was highly contested and led to a four-way split among Democratic-Republicans. A result of the split was the emergence of Andrew Jackson as a national leader. The war hero, generally considered — along with Jefferson — one of the founding fathers of the Democratic Party, organized his supporters to a degree unprecedented in American history. The Jacksonian Democrats created the national convention process, the party platform, and reunified the Democratic Party with Jackson's victories in 1828 and 1832. The Party held its first National Convention in 1832 and nominated President Jackson for his second term. In 1844, the National Convention simplified the Party's name to the Democratic Party.

Credibility link: http://www.democrats.org/about/history.html

[MrBenchley]

47. Funny....

that link doesn't seem to say word one about guns...other than by oblique references to Kennedy getting shot with one and to Clinton reducing crime (mostly by the COPS program and the Brady law).

Wonder why every RKBA argument seems to depend on denial, distortion, or outright deception? I don't.

[alwynsw]

48. Once again, you're getting OT.

It's also obvious that you have either no knowledge of farm life or you choose to ignore that knowledge.

I remind you that the Democratic party was founded primarily for farmers. The demographics have shifted since the founding. Consequently, so have some of the values.

[Name removed]

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[alwynsw]

50. Cite one of those things that is attributable to me.

Can't do it legitimately.

[MrBenchley]

54. Sure....

It's right next to the mention of guns in your link....

[alwynsw]

67. What? I smell a pantload!

In this post: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=34847#34956

you state:

that link doesn't seem to say word one about guns...other than by oblique references to Kennedy getting shot with one and to Clinton reducing crime (mostly by the COPS program and the Brady law).

Then in this post: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=34847#35012

you say:

It's right next to the mention of guns in your link....

So. Which is it? Does the link mention guns or does it not mention guns.

I'm still waiting for examples of any dishonest post from me.

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

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[MrBenchley]

53. What's obvious

is who is peddling revisionist history...and it's YOU.

[alwynsw]

69. Take a history class. It's all there for any to learn.

[MrBenchley]

74. Like all the mentions of guns in your link

[CO Liberal]

16. John F. Kennedy Was a Friend to Gun Owners

And what was the thanks he got? A bullet through the brain.

And one for his brother, too.

[Name removed]

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[CO Liberal]

35. Uh, Fishguy......

Another ridiculous argument from the anti-gun control, protect-the-profits-of-the-gun-industry crowd.

If you were truly replying to my message, you couldn't be closer from the truth. I'm one of the most pro-control, anti-gun industry people on this board.

Your meaning is not very clear.

[hansberrym]

25. There was a time when "Animal Farm" and "1984" were required reading...

for persons who considered themselves liberal.


Now some reject the idea of objective truth, and embrace what Orwell called double-speak and what Lenin referred to as the Dialectic.

This is glaringly obvious when considering the opinions regarding the Second Amendment handed down by judges such as Reinhardt of the Ninth Circuit and Judge Walton of the DC Court, and the praise heaped on these judges by "liberal" sources.

http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/gunlawsuits/silvlckyr120502opn.pdf (Miller)

http://www.dcd.uscourts.gov/03-834.pdf (Seegars)

Using Adobe (pdf) run a search for "state militia" and count the number of times this phrase is used in the opinion. Next do the same with the US Constitution and the Federalist Papers.

Note the definition of "militia" given in US V. Miller by the Supreme Court, and compare it to the definition given in Silveira(Judge Reinhardt of the Ninth Circuit) and Seegars(Judge Walton DC Court).

http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/bills/blusvmiller.htm


Note that Judge Reinhardt even inserts "state militia" where it does not appear in the original text of the Constitution and in the original text of US v. Miller.



Note also that both judges are "perplexed" by the word "keep" as in keep and bear arms. This feigned confusion is not at all plausible considering the resources that these men have at thier disposal. It is not at all likely that they are unaware of how the word "keep" was used in the Miller and Aymette decisions, nor are they unaware the "bearing arms" was used in reference to actions performed by individuals (rather than states or the people collectively) in US v. Miller and in the 3 citations from the Congresional debates on the Bill of Rights that were cited in Silveira.



Judge Silveira also edits quotations in order to deceive his readers.
See his treatment of John Adams' Defense of the Constitution and his treatment of The Address of the Pennsylvania Minority. A review of those actual documents reveals Judge Reinhardt's outright lies.



The denial of objective truth is the OPPOSITE of liberism. But that is just my opinion.

[MrBenchley]

26. What a shame "liberism"

doesn't live up to your high standards.....

You'll be happy to hear the right wing scum of the earth agrees with you....

""The ultra-liberal Ninth Circuit has a reputation for being the most overturned appeals court in the country," said SAF Founder Alan Gottlieb."

http://www.saf.org/pub/rkba/press-releases/NinthCircuitWrongAgain.htm

"twentieth century progressive liberal theory began to erode the entire notion of individual rights."

http://www.claremont.org/projects/doctors/021215wheeler.html

"Later in the magazine, reporter Howard Fineman described the Carter appointee as "longtime liberal lion Stephen Reinhardt" and the atheist plaintiff, Michael Newdow, as a "rigorous rationalist." By contrast, the rest of America was to be disparaged:"

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/brentbozell/printbb20020710.shtml

Of course, they're all chock full of shit.

[hansberrym]

28. I would not describe Judge Reinhardt as a "liberal"

Only those you use the term as a perjoritive would do so.

Judge Reinhardt is a Statist and a practitioner of the dialect.
His opinion in Silveira should be studied thoroughly and the lies he tells should be denounced so that the "right-wing scum" can not use his opinion to suggest that the Dems are out to steal the RKBA


The point of my post was that the denial of truth is NOT what liberalism is about, and by heaping praise on Judge Reinhardt persons such as yourself actually invite the sort of distrust that independents and libertarians feel towards the Democratic party when it comes to the protecting/defending/upholding second amendment.

[MrBenchley]

29. Hahahahahahaha....

"The point of my post was that the denial of truth is NOT what liberalism is about"
Says the guy trying to pretend a well-known liberal judge is not liberal...

"persons such as yourself actually invite the sort of distrust that independents and libertarians feel towards the Democratic party"
You mean the people who buy the crap Brent Bozell peddles? Ri-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-ght.

[hansberrym]

31. If you want to make the case that denial of truth IS what liberalism

is all about, then feel free.

But I am not with you or anyone else who embraces that dialectic crap.

[MrBenchley]

32. Gee, hans, the only one denying any truth here is YOU

Tell us again that Reinhardt doesn't exhibit true "liberism"

[hansberrym]

36. When Reinhardt intentionally misquotes J.Adams and

when he intentionally deletes words from other citations such as his treatment of The Address of the Pennsylvania Minority, both of which we have discussed at length in previous threads.

Plus his repetition of the phrase "state militia" and inserting of this phrase into text where it is not found goes way beyond the pale.
Add to these his lame claim of being perplexed by the word "keep" when search programs such as Adobe pdf are widely available.


Again, outright lying and denial of truth is NOT true liberalism.

[MrBenchley]

38. Cry us a river, hans.....

"outright lying and denial of truth is NOT true liberalism."
No, but it seems to be stock in trade for the RKBA crowd.

[hansberrym]

40. Please cite n/t

[MrBenchley]

41. Been there, done that......

[Columbia]

55. The Wikipedia definition of Liberalism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism

Liberalism may be used to describe one of several ideologies that claims individual liberty to dissent from orthodox tenets or established authorities in political or religious matters, in contrast to conservatism and/or communitarism.

One usage of the term is for a tradition of thought, that tries to circumscribe the limits of political power, and to define inalienable individual rights.

[MrBenchley]

57. Well now THERE's a GREAT source.....

"Wikipedia is an encyclopedia written collaboratively by its readers. The site is a WikiWiki, meaning that anyone, including you, can also edit any article right now by clicking on the edit this page link that appears in every Wikipedia article. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Welcome%2C_newcomers

Try a REAL encyclopedia...

"Liberalism: political philosophy emphasizing the value of individual liberty and the role of the state in protecting the rights of its citizens.
Liberalism does not lend itself to easy definition. A major difficulty is that, with some exceptions, liberals have shunned dogma, preferring generally a pragmatic to a doctrinaire approach to social problems."

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=127639&tocid=0&query=liberalism&ct=

[Columbia]

60. The two definitions jibe

From Wikipedia:

Liberalism may be used to describe one of several ideologies that claims individual liberty to dissent from orthodox tenets or established authorities in political or religious matters, in contrast to conservatism and/or communitarism.

From Brittanica:

political philosophy emphasizing the value of individual liberty and the role of the state in protecting the rights of its citizens.

[MrBenchley]

61. Not really....

and the word you were struggling for is "jibe"....which these don't...

[Columbia]

64. There you happy?

I think that is the only time you were right about anything. Congrats, you caught a typo.

As far as liberalism goes, both definitions support the tradition of individual liberty which is the point of this thread.

[MrBenchley]

65. Actually

the Britannica definition also mentions the role fo the state in protecting rights (such as public safety) which is very much the point of liberalism....and is why this RKBA crap is so beloved by right wing loonies.

[Columbia]

66. Well

Considering that the state has absolutely no responsibility to protect your safety, it is up to you to protect yourself, hence the need for the right to keep and bear arms.

[MrBenchley]

76. Well

there's a steaming pantload.

[alwynsw]

68. Kids, kids, kids. Use the OED. It's the authoratative dictionary

for the English speaking world.

Of political opinions: Favourable to constitutional changes and legal or administrative reforms tending in the direction of freedom or democracy. Hence, used as the designation of the party holding such opinions in England or other states; opposed to conservative.

Oxford English Dictionary, Second Edition (the most current)

Key words seem to be freedom and democracy. I like freedom, don't you?

[Columbia]

70. Thanks!

I used to use OED a lot (English B.A.), but alas I don't have an online subscription for it.

[alwynsw]

71. I got the CD version.

It's only about $200.00 - AND WELL WORTH IT.

[Columbia]

72. I guess a CD version...

Would be a little easier to carry around than the full 20-volume set. :o

[Paladin]

77. Sounds Like You're Just The Guy.......

....to instruct your fellow RKBA intellectuals that the word is spelled "amendment," not "ammendment." I figure that the NRA or the GOA misspelled the word on a talking points bulletin a while back, because the extra "m" turns up with suspicious frequency in this forum.....

[MrBenchley]

78. For that matter

How many RKBAers keep trying to pretend "well regulated" and "unorganized" are synonymous?

[MrBenchley]

75. Gee

Which side was it that ran roughshod over what voters in Missouri wanted?

Here's a hint, it was the RKBA crowd, the same side that was encouraging outright fraud in Wisconsin here the other day.

[Moderator]

79. locking

nice discussion, seems to have played out