Lawsuit Filed Against Post Office Gun Ban

[spin]

Colorado -–(Ammoland.com)- If there’s anything that makes a concealed carry permit holder upset, its criminal safezones.

A criminal safezone is where only criminals are safe, because armed self defense is banned. That’s why the National Association for Gun Rights has filed a lawsuit against the United State Postal Service.

The U.S. Postal Service uses bureaucratic rules to ban your right to carry in a Post Office, and that’s important, even if you don’t carry concealed –- it’s the camel’s nose under the tent.

You see, the U.S. Postal Service claims citizens don’t have the right to self defense in Post Offices.

There’s one problem with that claim: it isn’t true.


http://www.ammoland.com/2010/11/22/lawsuit-filed-against-post-office-gun-ban/

[onehandle]

1. The Gungeon. Where links to anti-Obama sites go to die. nt

[cleanhippie]

2. Then why do you post here all the time?

EPIC. FAIL.

[Hoopla Phil]

8. So are you saying that the post office does NOT ban firearms for those

that are licensed to carry?

[Euromutt]

14. Change the record already

Oh wait, you can't, can you? Because the record about shooting the messenger if you don't like the message is the only record you've got.

How about we take it as read that we've all heard that record more than enough times already, and you take it away until you've come out with a new one?

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kennah]

4. From 10 to 40 in 23 ...

... and yet we're still here. Fascinating.

10 Right To Carry States in 1987.
40 Right To Carry States in 2010.

[spin]

5. Actually a common dilemma for many people with a CCW ...

For a period of time I had a post office box. I legally carry concealed. I felt a lot like the plaintiffs in the lawsuit.

But imagine how Debbie Bonidy feels. Debbie and Tab Bonidy live in the mountains of Colorado, and are the plaintiffs –- along with the National Association for Gun Rights –- against the Postal Service.

Debbie Bonidy doesn’t like going anywhere without her personal handgun, which is why she went through the trouble of being trained, proving she’s law-abiding, and getting her concealed carry permit. Not only does the U.S. Postal Service say she can’t carry that handgun for self protection in a Post Office, but they arrogantly claim she can’t even leave it in her car when in their lot.
http://www.ammoland.com/2010/11/22/lawsuit-filed-against-post-office-gun-ban

To stay within the law, I had to park across the street from the post office. Since I have degenerative disc disease plus a bad hip, the walk presented a challenge. Note: I have a handicapped sticker which enables me to park close to a building.

[slackmaster]

6. You should educate yourself about the subject before attempting to comment on it

Your knee-jerk emotion-based reaction serves no useful purpose.

[Katya Mullethov]

9. They are the starch in my gravy , the lignum to my vitae

please to continue

[spin]

7. Banning firearms, the original intent of those who oppose RKBA ...

would have done more to cause a rapid decline of American civilization than the combined effect of "shall issue" concealed carry, castle defense, "stand your ground" and "take you gun to work laws.

Without the Bill of Rights, our Constitution might never have been ratified. The most important amendments in the Bill of Rights are the First and the Second, in that order.

What makes our nation unique is that we are one of the few nations who trust honest citizens enough to allow them to own firearms. The number of firearms Americans own is staggering!

Gun Owners Buy 14 Million Plus Guns In 2009 – More Than 21 of the Worlds Standing Armies
Wednesday, January 13th, 2010 at 11:43 am

Washington, DC --(AmmoLand.com)- Data released by the FBI’s National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) for the year reported 14,033,824 NICS Checks for the year of 2009, a 10 percent increase in gun purchases from the 12,709,023 reported in 2008.

So far that is roughly 14,000,000+ guns bought last year!
The total is probably more as many NICS background checks cover the purchase of more than one gun at a time by individuals.

To put it in perspective that is more guns than the combined active armies of the top 21 countries in the world. countries by number of troops.

***snip***

14,033,824,000 billions rounds of Ammo
Assuming each gun buyer bought 1000 rounds of ammo for each purchase, and you and I know that it is way, way more than that, that would be easily 14,033,824,000+ billions rounds of ammo fired by USA gun owners.
http://www.ammoland.com/2010/01/13/gun-owners-buy-14-million-plus-guns-in-2009/

It can be argued that lives would be saved if only firearms were strictly limited to the police and the army. In reality, all this would accomplish is to empower criminals and criminal gangs. Mexico has strict gun control and the well armed criminal gangs are turning the country into an anarchy.

[Glassunion]

10. Fuck the fucking NRA!!!

[Atypical Liberal]

12. Why?

The NRA gave very high marks to all of my Democratic candidates except one.

See my ballot in my sig.

[Glassunion]

13. Sorry... You misunderstood my sarcasm.

The NRA is not even the one filing the suit. Should have tagged my post :sarcasm:

[benEzra]

11. It always struck me as absolutely silly

that they attempt to ban firearms from vehicles that are parking for three minutes in an open public lot.

[Scruffy1]

15. In my humble opinion

Only a paranoid coward feels the need to carry a gun on USPS property. Having been in some of the most dangerous places in America I always laugh at the gun nuts who live in safe neighborhoods and spend their time worrying about home invaders and waiting for the chance to play John Wayne. Of course he was a cowardly draft dodger. Maybe my time in actual combat warped my view, but I simply think of any reason to pack a gun and can think of no circumstance that I would be safer with one. I'm not anti-gun just anti Walter Mitty syndrome wannabe heroes. Ask any cop. A gun is a lot like booze. It's almost guaranteed to make a bad situation worse. If the NRA published the list of gun suicides, accidental shootings, and family murders committed with guns besides there "Armed Citizen" it would take up half the issue. I belonged to the NRA when I was on a shooting team, because it was required, but soon realized they were just about making big money for themselves and the manufacturers. If you doubt me look at their offices in Washington and the cars in the parking lot.

What the NRA is really about is keeping the law on the side of selling great quantities of guns to criminals. The averagehunter probably buys about three guns in his life. Hell, I've still got my fathers Ithaca pump, and my rifles are all over twenty years old. On the other hand, the Mexican drug lords buy them by the truckload. Do the math. The really sad part of the NRA is that they get sportsman to pay them dues to run their lobbying for the gun manufacturers, not the members-who really need conservation of resources and more places to hunt-not tirades from senile old Hollywood actorswho live in nice gated communities and don't have to deal with the carnage. I've never met an NRA member in the hood, where everyone over 7 has access to a heater and the bodies roll by on a conveyor belt.

As far as the USPS is concerned you can bet it ain't going to happen. So if your so chicken and paranoid-and actually think that somehow your safer in a fire fight then minding your own business you can lock it in the car, park off of postal property and walk in.

[PavePusher]

16. The freely available crime statistics do not support your assertions.

But your name-calling is duly noted.

[aikoaiko]

17. Most people I know who carry aren't cowards, paranoid, Mittyesque types.

But I have met a few people like that -- some of whom carry and some of whom don't.

[friendly_iconoclast]

18. That's a good one. I give it 4.5

I took a half star off as this bit:

....
What the NRA is really about is keeping the law on the side of selling great quantities of guns to criminals. The average hunter probably buys about three guns in his life. Hell, I've still got my fathers Ithaca pump, and my rifles are all over twenty years old. On the other hand, the Mexican drug lords buy them by the truckload.

was just a bit too obvious- not that there aren't *udds like that out there in real life, but that was laid on just a little bit too thick...

[X_Digger]

19. Do you have a substantive argument?

You seem to have peppered your post with quite a few logical fallacies.

Ad hominem

Only a paranoid coward

Appeal to authority

Having been in some of the most dangerous places in America

Guilt by association

waiting for the chance to play John Wayne. Of course he was a cowardly draft dodger

Appeal to authority

Ask any cop.

Red Herring

The averagehunter probably buys about three guns in his life.

Only 1 in 5 gun owners hunt. The second amendment isn't about nor limited to hunting.


Feel free to come up with a cogent argument.

[cleanhippie]

20. Considering the terminology you chose to use, your opinion is pretty much worthless.

"paranoid coward", "gun nut", "waiting for the chance to play John Wayne", "cowardly draft dodger", etc...

Just goes to show, while you DO have an opinion, it is as uninformed and ignorant as any out there. Thanks for showing that when it comes to this subject, your opinion can be dismissed...

[jazzhound]

21. "Only a paranoid coward feels the need............"

One of the most obvious signs of a cowardly debater is ad hominem.

Thanks for giving yourself away in your opening sentence, and waving the white flag of surrender so boldly!

[spin]

22. An individual doesn't say, "Gee, I'm going to the post office, I better take my gun."

Using myself as an example, I would stop by the post office as one of my stops while I was in town. Technically, to comply with the law, I would have to park a considerable distance from the post office, leave my gun in the car and walk. The alternative was to make a separate trip without the weapon.

You may feel that I am paranoid and a coward because I choose to carry a concealed weapon with me on everyday tasks. You personally don't know me and are probably unfamiliar with many people who do carry on a regular basis. A large percentage of people with carry permits are ex-military or retired police. Some live in bad neighborhoods, many don't. Some visit dangerous areas because of their job and some carry at their job which may be in a dangerous area or may be a target of robbery such as a jewelry store.

Many people who carry on a frequent basis are regular shooters. They enjoy the sport of shooting and can see no reason why they should not be allowed to carry a weapon with them in their daily travels. An increasing number are women who don't want to just "relax and enjoy it" while they are raped.

But the people that I've met who carried on a daily basis never really impressed me as paranoid. We do try to avoid dangerous situations, for example, visiting an outdoor ATM in the wee hours of the morning or flashing a wallet full of money in a suspicious area.

Many of us also practice situational awareness. If something alerts us to a potentially dangerous situation, we leave. You as an expert on human nature and psychology might believe that this is a sign of cowardice. I would point out that the best way to survive a fight is to not be in a fight.

Most of us will also walk away from a situation if it looks like it might escalate into a fight. If you watched one of us do this, you probably would smirk and say something like, "What a cowardly wimp." Of course, the classes we take tell us that this is exactly what we should do. The legal system frowns on using lethal force unless absolutely necessary. Say you get involved in trading insults with someone and it turns into a fight where you realize the person intends to beat the crap out of you and you honestly believe that you may end up in a hospital. You pull your weapon and shoot him. The prosecuting attorney will ask you why you didn't just walk away.

If you reply, "Because it would have made me look like a coward", you lose. Do not pass go, go directly to jail. If you are the type of guy who needs to impress people with his toughness (which for some strange reason I suspect you are) - it would be wise to avoid carrying a firearm.

But it is fair to ask why some people with concealed carry permits “pack heat” on a daily basis. In fact I asked this question of a man on the range that carried a large pistol in a belt holster under his suit jacket at work (his own business) and everywhere he went. I know very few people in Florida who carry full sized handguns on a regular basis as it is a real pain in the ass. Lugging around a firearm that weighs a couple of pounds for eight to twelve hours is no fun.

He replied, “I carry because I don’t have a crystal ball to predict the future. I would love to be able to know on what day I would need a firearm. I would probably just stay home on that day. You never know when you will need a firearm and it is quite possible that you never will. Murphy’s law says that the one time you need it is the one time you will have left it at home.”

The range master at the pistol range I shot at in the Tampa Bay area was a retired cop. He asked me once if I carried on a daily basis. I replied, “Sometimes, but not always.”

He proceeded to chew my ass. “The State of Florida, in all its wisdom has given you a permit to carry a concealed weapon. They didn’t do this because they like you or because you are rich or famous, or even handsome because you definitely are not.”

“They believe that if enough honest people carry weapons it will reduce the violent crime rate.”

“Now I know you paid good money to get your carry permit and I’ve watched you shoot. I don’t want to open up a newspaper and find that some fool killed you and you were unarmed. So start carrying that snub nosed revolver you have everywhere you go!”

So I do.

[Glassunion]

23. Ha! Thanks for playing. Try again. Next time leave out the bigotry.

[benEzra]

24. I'm not a hunter, and the vast majority of gun owners aren't.

I shoot recreationally and competitively (local USPSA, NC Section, Limited-10 Class). And the firearm I'm licensed to carry is an S&W Lady Smith, which somehow to me isn't really congruent with your "John Wayne" stereotype, although he was a little before my time. Admittedly, Emily Procter did carry one as Calleigh Duquesne on CSI...

Only a paranoid coward feels the need to carry a gun on USPS property.

Generally speaking, the argument "only a paranoid coward feels the need to ______" can generally be translated "I don't have any serious arguments, so I am going to call you names instead." I suspect that most non-paranoid non-cowards simply leave the firearm in the car, if they even know about the goofy rule in the first place, which most people probably don't.

Maybe my time in actual combat warped my view, but I simply think of any reason to pack a gun and can think of no circumstance that I would be safer with one.

Then don't. That is a perfectly reasonable and rational choice.

I'm not anti-gun just anti Walter Mitty syndrome wannabe heroes.

Good. Since I didn't obtain a CHL years ago to be a hero, and since being dad to a special-needs kid is hero enough for me, I guess we're OK then.

Ask any cop. A gun is a lot like booze. It's almost guaranteed to make a bad situation worse.

Of course. That's why LEO's carry them, because they want to make things more dangerous for themselves, just to keep things interesting.

FWIW, I don't know your local circle of LEO's, but the LEO's around here are quite supportive of civilian carry licensure. When I moved back to NC in '03, the deputy sheriff who took my fingerprints told me he thought the state should waive the (hefty) fee for all qualified applicants, and our municipal PD here are supportive also.

What the NRA is really about is keeping the law on the side of selling great quantities of guns to criminals.

Since criminals are barred from buying guns from dealers by the NICS point-of-sale background check---which the NRA supported---I don't see much support for that argument. The gun industry gets no money from the private-sale used market or the black market, only from manufacture and wholesale to Federally licensed dealers or the government.

I think the fact that the NRA went to bat for the victims of the New Orleans gun confiscation shows you're wrong (the more guns get confiscated, the more new guns get purchased, right?), and I was also very glad to see the NRA stand up for gun owners over manufacturers when they helped kill the lawsuit-preemption bill rather than allow a new AWB to pass.

FWIW, there *is* a gun-industry lobby that is funded by manufacturers and represents them, the NSSF.

The averagehunter probably buys about three guns in his life. Hell, I've still got my fathers Ithaca pump, and my rifles are all over twenty years old.

Fewer than 1 in 5 gun owners is a hunter, and a substantial portion of the minority who hunt also own guns for other purposes. I personally have nothing against hunting and would welcome the chance to go at some point, but I own no dedicated "hunting guns" and have no need of them. I do fully support your right to hunt, though.

On the other hand, the Mexican drug lords buy them by the truckload. Do the math.

You do know that those U.S.-made select-fire M4's, M203's, and grenades in the hands of the cartels are restricted to the military and law enforcement market in the United States, yes?

The really sad part of the NRA is that they get sportsman to pay them dues to run their lobbying for the gun manufacturers, not the members-who really need conservation of resources and more places to hunt---not tirades from senile old Hollywood actors who live in nice gated communities and don't have to deal with the carnage. I've never met an NRA member in the hood, where everyone over 7 has access to a heater and the bodies roll by on a conveyor belt.

Most gun owners need their rights protected, period. Places to hunt are great, but it chaps me a little that 100% of the Pittman-Robertson excise taxes I pay on my nonhunting guns and target ammo go to fund NC game lands (which I'm not allowed to shoot on), with not a dime going to shooting ranges. If anything, I think the NRA historically overemphasized hunting in their educational materials and lobbying until the late '90s, although I am glad to see them supporting all of us now.

So if your so chicken and paranoid-and actually think that somehow your safer in a fire fight then minding your own business you can lock it in the car, park off of postal property and walk in.

Sure, whatever you say. :hi:

[Kennah]

I do know cops, and I've trained with cops ...

... and we were shooting and moving quickly. Rank and file cops know guns in the hands of people makes their job easier.

[beevul]

25. A humble comment on your humble opinion.

"...carry a gun on USPS property."

Who owns that property?


The United states postal service?


A branch of the government they be. The federal government no less.



Whom exactly do you think this text refers to:

THE Conventions of a number of the States having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added: And as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government, will best insure the beneficent ends of its institution

http://billofrights.org

That would be the federal government.



Now, if we read the second amendment as the restrictive clause - restrictive upon government - that it is, well, things become crystal clear.

The areas where non postal employees- thats the people whos rights are protected from government infringement btw - go inside the post office are generally not secured areas like a courthouse.

There is no justification for this kind of infringement.

It IS a constitutionally protected right, and youd be wise to remember that.


As would the USPS.

[cleanhippie]

26. I think it is safe to say that your humble opinion has been thoroughly humbled.

Pretty much have had it eviscerated and handed back to you.

[Glassunion]

27. One more thing.

My brother has spent time in combat. Up until about 8 months ago.

He told me something once. It stuck in my heart harder than anything I have ever heard.

"Don't let anything I do be in vain. I took my oath because I believe in it."

All I could do was hug him.

You took the same oath. Do you believe in it?

[DeadEyeDyck]

28. I carry a gun for the same reason I drive a car with an air-bag.

I don't intend to use either.
But I guess that now makes me a paranoid, coward on two counts.