Should you own a handgun?

[spin]

There is an undeniable feeling of power derived from shooting a handgun. About half of all gun owners buy one for protection. But how many people can actually say that owning a gun saved their life, or at least their property?


First time at a gun range
Photo: wordpress.com

A quick statistic to put things in perspective. 25% of Southern Californian households possess a firearm. This is relatively low compared to a national average of 47%. And with a topic like this, the elephant in the room is often “gun safety”. Are the innocent more often the ones who suffer? The answer is a resounding “no”. Hunting accidents aside, around 300 innocent civilians are killed annually by accidental shootings. Factor this against the 45,000 who die annually in car accidents.

So how many people have actually used a handgun to stop a crime? A poll conducted by the LA Times shows that 9% of So Cal gun owners have used their gun in self-defense. And of this group, only 2% actually fired it. This means that 98% of the time, the gun alone was an adequate deterrent.

Now before you run out and get on that 5 day waiting list to own a Dirty Harry special, consider this - another poll by the LA Times breaks down the gun ownership in Southern California by race. In So Cal, 43% of Anglo households possess a gun, 33% of African-American households possess, and 25% for Latinos. But when we consider who the victims are of violent offenders, African-Americans are the highest at 20%, Latinos at 17%, and Anglos at 9%. This can be interpreted to mean that citizens who live in higher crime areas (typically minorities) are less paranoid, or perhaps desensitized to crime, and therefore don’t purchase a gun for protection.

Lastly, more criminals have been shot and killed in legal self-defense by citizens than cops. Keep in mind that cops usually offer a verbal warning before they shoot, whereas civilians tend to shoot first and ask questions later.
http://www.examiner.com/true-crime-in-los-angeles/should-you-own-a-handgun

[madmax]

1. Had this discussion on DU a few weeks ago

After lenghthy give and take I decided not to get any gun. Main reason being I don't think I'm at the point where I can 'neutralize the target'.

Most of the advice on the type of gun would be shotgun and aim for center mass. If things keep going the way they are I'll reconsider but, for now...

[theoldman]

2. Your opinion may change if you took a course in gun safety.

I was very young when I started shooting a 22 cal rifle. My years in the military also taught me a lot about shooting and gun safety. IMHO a person should have a gun for protection but they should be trained. Too many children are killed each year because the gun was not placed beyond their reach.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[safeinOhio]

4. I'd start with home security

Much cheaper and just as effective as shotgun, because you can stop the home intrusion before you are in danger. Google "cheap home security". It is amazing what you can do for little money to be secure in your home.

[spin]

8. Always great advice. (n/t)

[lawodevolution]

41. The most important part of your home security being

your gun.

[spin]

7. Don't buy a firearm for self defense if you can't answer, " yes" to the question ...

Would you fire your weapon to stop a deadly attack knowing that you will seriously hurt or possibly kill the attacker?

Most encounters end without a shot being fired, but if you look hesitant to use your weapon the attacker may decide to take it from you.

And there is no reason to be ashamed if would find it difficult to shoot another person. It's a normal human reaction.

S.L.A Marshall's famous work, Men Against Fire, documented astonishingly low firing rates for American riflemen during World War II. According to Marshall, only 15 to 20 percent of U.S. combatants in World War II fired their weapons at the enemy. Grossman points out that this reluctance to kill is not unique to World War II, and he provides psychological and sociological reasons for soldiers' actions and reactions in combat. He cites situations throughout history when "warriors" have apparently refused to kill, even when faced with mortal danger.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa5414/is_199811/ai_n21432288/

[one-eyed fat man]

27. All military units consist of three types of soldiers

Killers, fillers and fodder.

Five percent of your force will account for 40% of the damage your unit does. Of the other 95%, about 1 in 5 stand an even chance at surviving their first decisive engagement. What S.L.A Marshall document is not new.

Heraclitus of Ephesus had this to say about 2600 years ago:

"Of every 100 men, 10 shouldn't even be there, 80 are nothing but targets, nine are real fighters... We are lucky to have them...

They make the battle. Ah, but the One, One of them is a Warrior... and He will bring the others back."

His numbers still hold up.

[spin]

28. Very true. (n/t)

[Euromutt]

40. Whether it applies outside of warfare is a different matter

It's one thing to be unwilling to kill another person when you're both agents of your respective states, fighting over some piece of real estate that your respective governments have decided the other should not have control over. It's entirely another when you're acting in defense of your own life and limb, and/or those of your loved ones.

Never having been subjected to actual combat, I can't say with certainty in what circumstances--if any--I'd be capable of killing a guy because he was wearing the wrong uniform. But I can state with some certainty that if a person or animal were threatening my wife, child, or myself, I would have absolutely no compunction about using lethal force to stop that threat. The value I place on the physical well-being of my family and myself significantly outweighs the value I place on the life of an aggressor, whereas I cannot state the value I place on whatever my government has sent me to fight to gain or retain control over outweighs the value of the life of a guy who happens to be wearing the other side's uniform.

To quote an exchange between two British soldiers from Spike Milligan's war memoirs:
"Yeah, but what if Jerry came to your house and tried to rape your sister?"
"What could I do about it? I'm in fucking Tunisia!"

[one-eyed fat man]

55. Good points, all.

How anyone will react under a direct lethal threat is tough to predict. The psychologist that comes up with a reliable test to predict who will fight, who will freeze and who will run can count on armies clamoring for his services.

Your point about going to war for politics works up until you deploy. Once you are in theater, you aren't fighting for flag and Fatherland, but for your buddies. You go because they are counting on you. Going back to Marshall's study for a moment, it was RIFLEMEN who failed to fire during an engagement. Soldiers carrying a BAR almost always took active part in the firefight. Not because they were more aggressive, but by having the squad's automatic weapon any reluctance to fire on their part would have been instantly noticeable by the rest of the squad. The fear of not meeting your peers expectations is perhaps not as great as the fear of being called on it.

The other aspect of combat is that not all of it is "up close and personal" even for infantrymen. Unlike the range populated by paper people waiting for you to poke holes in them, battlefield targets are, at best, indistinct, fleeting shadows, more often, not even visible. Fire comes from the wood line, you see smoke and muzzle flashes, you shoot at where you saw the flashes. When you walk over there, you find dead and wounded. There are casualties, you may have hit some of them, but you can also avoid taking direct responsibility for the corpse at your feet.

A tank commander, looking through his periscope as the gunner fires at an Iraqi T-72, might comment, "Wow, did you see how high that turret went?" completely disregarding the four men just incinerated. What about the guy in Nevada punching off a Hellfire missile from a drone half a world away at thermal images on a computer screen?

It is the in your face urgency of close quarters combat that has militaries practicing combat reaction drills. Mind-numbing repetition leading to mindless reaction with the goal of a dead enemy at your feet before you have time to say, "Oh shit!"

While such training may very well save your life, you will not know what dark corner of your mind those faces stay unless or until they rob you of sleep, sometimes decades later. It is really a mystery how some will be able to combat behind them, never to be bothered, while others will be debilitated by the experience, no matter how righteous the circumstances. The only way for an individual to know is to cross that bridge, and once on the other side, for good or ill, there is no return to innocence.

[lawodevolution]

42. I agree with this 100% spin,

"Would you fire your weapon to stop a deadly attack knowing that you will seriously hurt or possibly kill the attacker?"

You never know how you will react if you think your action may kill someone. You can always plan to put a round in the attacker's leg.

[spin]

45. I plan to shoot for center body mass ...

the way I was trained. It's not that I want to kill the attacker, but I do want the best chance of stopping his attack.
Many people survive multiple shots from a handgun to the body. A handgun is not as lethal as most people think.

I have read of instances where shooting a person in the leg stopped the fight but the leg is often a rapidly moving target and a miss would be easy and possibly endanger people behind the target if the bullet ricocheted.

[jazzhound]

49. "A handgun is not as lethal as most people think."

As you of course know, intoxicated persons have been known to sustain enormous gunshot trauma while continuing an attack.

It's fairly common for criminals to settle their nerves prior to a crime by taking a relatively mild amount of "sedative" prior to launch time.

Massad Ayoob recounted a case where a physically large man with heroin in his system was pressing an assault on police officers even after being hit multiple times with .45 rounds. By the time the shooting stopped, the perp was literally riddled with gunshot wounds......but that's what it took to stop him.

Ayoob's books "In the Gravest Extreme" and "Stressfire" would be extremely good reading for those considering firearm ownership.

[RamboLiberal]

52. Aiming for the Arm or Leg is Lone Ranger stuff

Real life you aim center mass or don't own a gun. Dumb idea.

[GreenStormCloud]

59. A shot through the femoral artery can cause bleed out in minutes.

Deliberately shooting to wound is both illegal and immoral. A deliberate shot to wound is proof that you were not yet "in the gravest extreme", and therefore did not need to shoot.

[old mark]

54. You are entitled to your assinine opinion, but please don't attempt to decide for others...

If you fear or "hate" guns, by all means don't buy one, but let others make their own decisions.

mark

[Township75]

9. You are making hte best decision then.

If you can't use the gun, then don't own it.

If you had to compromise, buy a gun from a friend, pawn shop or junk yard that doesn't work...maybe the sight of the firearm would deter the criminal and if not, that criminal couldn't use it against you or steal it and use it in the future.

No shame in not being able to take a life.

[spin]

13. It's never a good idea to point a fake gun at anyone ...

they might have a real one.

[Township75]

14. I'm referring to a situation where a criminal is...

threatening you, not just pointing a gun at anyone.

If the criminal is threatening you and they have a gun, they likely aren't waiting for you to pull your's first so they can feel justified in using their own.

[spin]

17. If you surprise a home invader in the process of robbing your home ...

he may have a firearm hidden on him.

There are people who get a thrill out of robbing occupied homes. There is actually a term for such activities...

Hot prowl burglary

A hot prowl burglary is a sub-type of burglary in which the offender enters a building or residence while occupants are inside the location. The overarching intent of a hot prowl burglary can be theft, robbery, sexual assault, murder, or another crime. Hot prowl burglaries are considered especially dangerous by law enforcement because of the potential for a violent altercation to erupt between the occupant and the offender. Police agencies throughout the United States encourage residents to keep their doors and windows locked at all times to prevent the possibility of a hot prowl burglary.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_prowl_burglary

I remember reading an interesting interview with a burglar who loved to rob occupied homes who was asked by a reporter what he would do if comforted by an armed homeowner.

He said, "I carry a .357 magnum and I practice on the range on a regular basis. If some homeowner draws down on me, I'll just kill them."

[Township75]

19. and

if you are unarmed, then he may still draw on you...so what's your point.

[spin]

23. You said ...

If you had to compromise, buy a gun from a friend, pawn shop or junk yard that doesn't work...maybe the sight of the firearm would deter the criminal and if not, that criminal couldn't use it against you or steal it and use it in the future.

I replied ...

It's never a good idea to point a fake gun at anyone ...

You came back with ...

I'm referring to a situation where a criminal is...threatening you, not just pointing a gun at anyone.

If the criminal is threatening you and they have a gun, they likely aren't waiting for you to pull your's first so they can feel justified in using their own.

To which I replied ...

If you surprise a home invader in the process of robbing your home ...he may have a firearm hidden on him.

Now you come back with ...

and if you are unarmed, then he may still draw on you...so what's your point.

Remember that we started off with your advise that the previous poster point a broken firearm at the robber to scare him. The robber would not know the firearm was broken and was actually unarmed and might kill the homeowner.

My advise would be that the homeowner have a loaded firearm and be ready to shoot if the intruder acts aggressive in any manner. In Florida where I live, an intruder is at the homeowners mercy.

I should also point out that playing Wyatt Earp in your home if you suspect you have an intruder is a bad idea. The best plan is to stay inside your locked bedroom and call the police on your cell phone. Take cover behind your bed and point your firearm (preferably a 12 gauge shotgun with 00 buck) at the door. If the intruder breaks the door down, make sure that he has no right to be in your home and if so pull the trigger.

[RSillsbee]

32. I can't think of worse advice

or a quicker way to get yourself killed than to point a fake gun at a criminal

[RamboLiberal]

51. Pointing a fake gun at a criminal - DUMB

[one-eyed fat man]

56. Never, never, ever BLUFF!

Pointing a fake, unloaded, or inoperative gun at anyone is an invitation to get shot.

It was spate of police shootings roughly 20 years ago involving kids pointing realistic looking toys at cops that got Federal legislation passed requiring the muzzles of toys to be painted blaze orange.

The law of unintended consequences, being what it is, during the 50's you could buy a water pistol that was a very realistic facsimile of a real gun. The Luger was very popular, and very authentic.



Now, criminals disguise very real sawed off shotguns as squirt guns! This particular example, seized in Florida, the water gun was fully functional while effectively disguising the 12 gauge pump.



or paint very real guns to look like toys.



While teen-age film makers draw attention after using black electrical tape to mask the muzzles of their Airsoft props.

[GreenStormCloud]

60. NEVER bluff with a gun. Your bluff may get called. N/T

[madmax]

20. I would definitely take a course in gun safety

and do all the right things. I just can't see me holding a gun or a rifle. Grew up a city kid, didn't hunt or anything like that. :smoke:

We have a security system and I live in a townhouse so we're all pretty close and watch out for each other. I'm more terrified of our government and the right wing lunatics.

What started me thinking were some posts on DU and what I've heard from some lefty friends who think that the shit is going to hit the fan and we should be ready.

I'm too old for this! Someone adopt me :P

[spin]

26. You might try a gun course or if you have a friend who enjoys shooting ...

she if he/she will take you to the range.

Most shooters love introducing new people to the sport. You might be surprised how much fun shooting is.

[RSillsbee]

31. If you're already leaning that way

I'd say go ahead and buy the shotgun they will never be cheaper than they are right now. and you can store it while you're deciding.

[safeinOhio]

5. As for gun safety class.

A few years back I meet a man at the flea market that had a cast on his left hand. I asked about it and he told me he shot himself in the hand while cleaning a pistol. Then he told me he has been an NRA safety instructor for 36 years. A healthy fear of handling guns is a good thing.

[Bonhomme Richard]

6. A good size dog can also be a decent deterrent.

On the upside you also get a buddy.

[safeinOhio]

10. Some people can not have a dog

because they would have to license and register it.


:sarcasm:

[spin]

11. There was a 60 pound female Black Labrador in the house ...

when my daughter encountered a man forcing his way through the sliding glass door in the kitchen. A burglar alarm was also blaring.

What stopped the intruder was the S&W Model 25-2 .45 acp revolver that my daughter pointed at him. This handgun is the same size as Dirty Harry's .44 magnum, but uses a less powerful round.



Duchess, the female lab, simply took the attitude that my daughter had the gun and would handle the situation. She was a sweetheart but basically worthless as a watchdog.

[madmax]

21. My Yorkie, Maxx would give me up in a heartbeat.

:evilgrin:

[Bonhomme Richard]

29. LOL, I still have the 9mm in case the dog

gives them a pass.

[Goldstein1984]

12. A gun is just a tool

The decision to own one shouldn't be any more complicated than deciding to buy a hammer once you decide you need one, and learning how to use it properly once you have one. (I'm thinking of two murders I know of that were committed with hammers.)

The trouble I have with handgun owners is the same trouble I have with owners of rifles and shotguns--too many people buy them, fire them once or not at all, and then assume they will know how and when to use them when and if the time comes. They're correctly assessing the odds, which say the time to use a firearm in self defense is unlikely to come. But if that time does come, they will likely be a danger to themselves.

In spite of the recreational shooting I have done, I understand that the fundamental purpose of a handgun is to kill another human being in the terrible event that it should ever become necessary. (Yes, people hunt with them, but that isn't why they were developed.) If a person owns a handgun, or any firearm, and doesn't use it recreationally, then the handgun's only purpose, regardless of how it is rationalized, is to kill another human being if it should ever become necessary. If you lack the skill and mindset to do that, then the handgun is a greater threat to the owner than an aggressor.

[old mark]

15. I have around 14 of them right now, all over the place...I have owned

handguns for over 40 years now, and I enjoy shooting them.
I have had a license to carry a firearm for over 15 years, and carry one whenever I leave the house.


If you don't want a gun, please just don't buy one - no one is forcing you to have one.


mark

[Riftaxe]

16. I must be doing something wrong,..

I have had a few handguns for over 25 years, and I still haven't achieved a "undeniable feeling of power derived from shooting", although I was a little nervous the first time I ever shot some of my red line reloads.

[spin]

18. I remember that feeling when I first started reloading ...

I picked a powder that required so many grains that a double charge would have just overflowed the case.

Still, I was nervous when I dropped the hammer on the first reload.

I also remember a day at the range when a reloader with 30 or 40 years experience blew a S&W .357 mag apart. He had been a competitive shooter and was the armorer for a police department before retirement.

He blew the top strap off the revolver and split the cylinder in half. He had a cut on his forehead from a metal fragment but otherwise was uninjured. He did manage to destroy his spotter scope mounted on his NRA pistol case.

He figured that the cause of the accident was the fact that he left the powder in the measure in his garage and when he next started to dump powder into the cases, the powder in the measure had clumped because of moisture. Consequently he dropped a double or triple load.

KA BOOM!!!

[Crunchy Frog]

22. At this point I simply could not keep one in the house.

If it was accessable enough to do any sort of good in a crisis then it would be way too accessable to be under the same roof as my two toddler boys who get into everything.

Before having the babies I might have considered it. Now no way.

[spin]

25. There are small gun safes which allow you to safely secure a firearm ...

from children.



Stack On Strong Box Size 13 13/16"Wx9 5/8"Hx9 5/8"D

$49 from Amazon.com



GunVault NV300 NanoVault with Combination Lock

GunVault NV300 NanoVault with Combination Lock

$$28.99 from Amazon.com

[Crunchy Frog]

34. I don't trust myself enough (I'm not the most organized person in the world)

to feel that a gun would be safe in my house, even if I had one of those.

[spin]

36. In that case, I feel you have made a wise decision ...

if you are considering owning a firearm it is necessary to honestly appraise your strengths and weaknesses.

[Euromutt]

46. I second spin on that

I'm the father of a four year-old boy myself, so I understand where you're coming from. If you don't feel you can guarantee that your firearms won't find their way into unauthorized hands (particularly in a condition in which they could be discharged), then you are making a responsible decision in deciding not to have any on the premises.

And that is ultimately a call only you can make for yourself.

[udbcrzy2]

24. I might get one

I've considered buying one. The man who shot my son 11-times has 8-handguns registered to him. My son was brutally murdered by a nutjob with a handgun tucked into his waistband. He began firing when my son was 7-feet way and he fired 11-shots. He tortured, mutilated and finally executed him with 3-shots to the head. The holes he left in his head were about the size of a half-dollar and had thick black marks around the holes. I'm going to get one just in case he is released. This is still an ongoing case and he's in jail. He has a high profile attorney, but I doubt if it will do him any good. I just hope he gives the attorney every penny he has ever earned. I have to face each day knowing what he did to my only son. This guy did not have a conceal and carry permit either. This gun had a laser or light on it too. I've gone to the gun shop before to see what this kind of gun looks like. The witnesses thought it was a 9mm, but I don't really know. The prosecutor won't release any information to the public and she considers me public even though this was my son who lived in my home. He did this horrible crime at night, so I guess the laser/light was helpful to him to hit his target, my son.

My son was breaking up with a girl and her father murdered him in front of several witnesses. The girl told several people that her father had been planning to do this. She is not talking anymore and has her own attorney as a witness. The autopsy says that there were 'no signs of wounds indicating a fight'. The perp is claiming self-defense. The police reports says the comments he made were that 'he was scared and shaky'. WTF! Makes me think how scared was my son. The witnesses say my son was screaming and begging for his life.

If I get one I'll probably make good use of it.

[safeinOhio]

30. My heart goes out to you

and your family. May you find peace.

:grouphug:

[RSillsbee]

33. Please note

That registering handguns did nothing to stop that crime

[safeinOhio]

35. True, but

your post may be the most Insensitive one I have every viewed.

[udbcrzy2]

37. He has more than that

There are witnesses that know this man and have told the police that he has hundreds of guns in his basement. The prosecutor only found that 8 were registered to him. Either way, it's still a gun and the guy who did this is still an ass. I don't want him dead, I just want him to at least be as miserable as I am. I hope he goes to prison (pretty sure he will). I hope he has to suck dick and gets beat up everyday. I hope he shits in his pants every day of his life.

[lawodevolution]

44. So he had hundreds of un-registered guns when it is the law to register them in your area?

Get the gun to protect yourself and nothing more, sorry to hear about your loss

[udbcrzy2]

48. I think he is a dishonest man

I don't know this guy - there were people at his bond hearing that told me this and those people spoke to police and the prosecutor. This guy has some kind of a disability because he's on social security (found court documents stating back problem - he is fat too), but he has money to buy guns and hire one of the most expensive criminal defense attorneys in our area. Maybe he's an illegal gun dealer.

When I looked at handguns at the gun shop, I thought the guy said all I had to do was show my drivers license and could take it home right then. For a conceal and carry I think you have to take classes and there is a process. This guy didn't have a conceal and carry permit, but he pulled it out of his waistband (daughter says he always carries on ankle strap) and being a fat guy it was concealed. He was ready. He even told my son 'that I have something for you' before he began shooting. He's an evil asshole. The prosecutor said 'the crime shows depravity' in the bond memos online.

[udbcrzy2]

38. Thank you

I doubt if I can find peace. I just hope I die soon so I won't have to suffer anymore. I cannot even go to the store without crying. I can't stop thinking about what my boy went through. He was shot down and was crawling away as the guy stood over him. Then, the executed him. One of the shots was between the temple and forehead. He had to have been looking into my sons eyes when he pulled the trigger.

[era veteran]

39. Our heart goes out to you and family

So sorry, words won't work.

[spin]

43. Hopefully justice will prevail. I'm sorry for your loss. (n/t)

[madmax]

47. My heart aches for you

and so very sorry for your loss. I hope this animal gets what he deserves and that you and your son receive Justice.

:hug:

[RamboLiberal]

50. I'm very sorry to read about your son

I hope you will find justice and the jerk who did this will be prosecuted and spend the rest of his life in prison.

[jazzhound]

53. What RL just said. So sad to hear this. NT

[jeepnstein]

61. You will be in my prayers.

I'm not sure a gun is what you need right now. If I were in your boat I'm not sure I'd want one around, either. I will say that you might as well get a regular appointment to talk to someone about this because the trial will be an ordeal.

I have a very good friend who is in a similar circumstance to yours. It's a burden that a parent should never have to carry.

[X_Digger]

62. I'll add my sympathies and one small bit of advice.

You may want to consider not talking about the case (in a public forum like this, especially). Your words could be twisted out of context, or one poorly chosen word could be used in the case.

[DissedByBush]

57. Minority ownership of guns

"This can be interpreted to mean that citizens who live in higher crime areas (typically minorities) are less paranoid, or perhaps desensitized to crime, and therefore don’t purchase a gun for protection."

Or they are less likely to tell a pollster they have a gun.

Also, minorities tend to be more concentrated in urban areas where guns are less common.

[jazzhound]

58. Good catch, DBB.

Additionally, income disparity could account for lower purchases as well.

This can be interpreted to mean that citizens who live in higher crime areas (typically minorities) are less paranoid, or perhaps desensitized to crime, and therefore don’t purchase a gun for protection.

A classic example of how data gets spinned in the gun "control"/violence debate. The author's bias is clearly revealed by the use of the word "paranoid". I might buy part of the "desensitized to crime" theory, however.

[spin]

63. My daughter worked for the census this year ...

and she would agree that getting people to answer even basic questions is extremely difficult. Asking questions about gun ownership would have been useless as a high percentage of people would simply lie.

Of course, as a census worker she was a federal employee and represented the government. Still many people are hesitant about revealing the info that they own firearms, especially in the high crime areas of cities like Chicago and Washington D.C. where many of the firearms even in the hands of citizens who are not involved in crime are probably illegal.

I've known many people who would not buy a firearm from a gun store as they feared a paper trail. All their firearms were purchased from private owners. I should point out that these people were not criminals, just everyday citizens with a deep distrust of the government.

edited because I can