Can one be pro-gun AND liberal?

[beevul]

Can one be pro-gun AND liberal?

That is the question I would like to see discussed.


If the answer is yes, please explain why.

If the answer is no, again, please explain why.

I request Y'all be nice , and stay on topic.

[DenverDem]

1. Yes

We will need guns to defend ourselves against the New World Order storm troopers.

[lcordero]

2. yes

I don't feel that it is "liberal" to take away or limit the rights of the common man or woman.
Hell, Salvador Allende armed the farmers in Chile.

[bluestateguy]

3. Hell yes

Why should the Right be the only ones that are armed?

Gays, abortion doctors, Muslim-Americans, blacks, Hispanics, Arabs and anti-war demonstrators need to protect themselves from right wing fundamentalistwackos who incite violence against them. Law enforcement authorities in the red states don't make the protection of such groups a very high priority. There is a reason why the Black Panthers opposed gun control.

Furthermore, people who call for liscensing and registration are foolhardy. Can you imagine John Ashcroft with a database of names, addresses and personal info for all gun owners? I could just see him using such a list to confiscate guns from any non-white, non-Protestant person in the name of "national security". Believe it or not it was the Right, not the Left, that invented gun control: it was an effort to disarm black people; the Nazi weapons law of 1938 was directed primarily toward opponents of the regime and Jews.

An armed citizenry is an effective check against government tyranny.

[rusk2003]

4. An Armed Citizenry is best defence against Tyranny? Where do ya live

In America that is not the best defence agianst Goverment Tyranny. Now if you live in the middle east where they change governments by force Perhaps. But Guns will not stop any enrochments of our Civil Liberties. (And besides the Government has bigger and better Guns LOL)

[MrBenchley]

14. Worth noting

pretty much every household in Iraq under Saddam had guns...

[MrBenchley]

13. Very very funny...

"Gays, abortion doctors, Muslim-Americans, blacks, Hispanics, Arabs and anti-war demonstrators need to protect themselves from right wing fundamentalistwackos "
But only if they shoot back, eh? Koresh forbid anything to keep right wing loonies from shooting in the first place be done.

Worth notinng that blacks are overwhelmingly in favor of gun control...and that pretty much every organization that represents these groups ended up on the NRA's hate list...wonder why?

"Can you imagine John Ashcroft with a database of names, addresses and personal info for all gun owners?"
No, because there's nobody louder in public life peddling that bogus "gun rights" crap. AshKKKroft wouldn't even let the FBI check after 9/11 to see if terrorists had bought guns....he's a totally corrupt piece of shit...and typical of the "pro gun" movement.

[Muddleoftheroad]

18. Thankfully

We aren't ALL for gun control. I lived in D.C. where my constitutional rights meant nothing. I saw lots of guns -- Glocks and Tek-9s especially.

Finally, I was able to get out. I now live in Virginia where no one dares tell me my rights. I also now own a Glock.

[pinkpops]

5. depends on who you want to shoot

[alwynsw]

6. Certainly.

The crux of liberalism is individual rights. The ownership of firearms is one of those rights. The 2nd Amendment told me so.

[rusk2003]

7. Yes Iam Pro Gun and Here is why

Iam pro Gun but by no means am I a Gun Nut I think some Gun Control is fine like banning AK 47's machine Guns and Other Military type weapons. I think their should be safety laws that hold people liable for misuse of Firearms. Iam opposed to banning Firearms and Stun Guns and Air Teasers, AS i believe Non lethal Self Defense should always be the first option. I think Gun Control is a lot like the war on Drugs and Prohibition. They do not work and never will.

You go to NYC and LA and Atlanta and you can stand on the side walk of in some dark ally and buy all the Firearms you want with out permits and licenses and checks waiting periods. I mean many Gun laws need repelled. and I think certain ones like extra penalties for use during a crime are good Gun Control are the right kind of gun control.

I People who have a lot of hate directed at them because of how they live their life what group their a member of or becasue of who they are from wackos and mean people should carry Firearms or at the very least stun guns.

[DoNotRefill]

8. Yes...just as it's a liberal position....

to stand up for all of the rest of the Bill of Rights and civil liberties.

[solinvictus]

9. Yes, because...

it's true patriotism to possess the means to effectively resist all forms of tyranny. History has shown over and again that a government monopoly on effective weapons leads to mass murder.

[Lefty48197]

10. Yes

even us liberals are skeered of black helicopters.

[solinvictus]

15. "even us liberals are skeered of black helicopters."

Which can be taken down with proper application of small arms. Common knowledge to the military; lost point on the media.

[MrBenchley]

11. Not according to pro-gunners....

But then pretty much every liberal is pro-gun control anyway....and if there was one that wasn't they'd get lied about by gun nuts.

Meanwhile, every pro-gun public figure is not only right wing, but ultra-scummy far right wing. The one that boasts openly of his NRA life membership is John AshKKKroft, and no less than Jebbo credits the NRA with the appointment of pResident Turd.

I'll remind you that the thread that the RKBA crowd started trying to claim Russ Feingold as pro-gun ended with enthusiasts screaming about how much they despised him. And that my contribution was pointing out all the lies about him circulated by the gun rights crowd.

[slackmaster]

28. MrBenchley pretends to ignore pro-gun liberals

But he can't help reading our posts anyway.

[alwynsw]

29. I'm pro RKBA and I know RKBA'ers can be liberal - I am one.

[MrBenchley]

12. By the way....

How come all the pro-gunners keep dredging up turds from right wing cesspools like Newsmax and the Washington Times if they're so liberal?

How come there's never a word on online gun owners forums protesting the open racism, bigtory and right wing stupidity there if there are pistol-packin' liberals?

[alwynsw]

16. You cuss and discuss with several of us every day.

Liberal gun owners/RKBA supporters, that is.

[MrBenchley]

21. Yeah, I can tell...

Just look at all the liberal sources you use...oh wait, the RKBA crowd only uses crap from right wing cesspools like NNewsmax and the Washington Times.

[DoNotRefill]

19. Yup, you often hear...

those Pink Pistols talking about gay-bashing...well, they DO, just not quite the way some people think they should, since they're part of an online gun owners group...

[MrBenchley]

22. Too fucking funny...You mean gay bashing like THIS

"Reno, Nevada-- The National Rifle Association, holding its annual convention in this dry desert city, took an opportunity Sunday to demonize the gay and lesbian community with inflammatory homophobic rhetoric.
Anti-gun talk show host Rosie O'Donnell was called a "freak" by one speaker for her recent admission that she's a lesbian. O'Donnell had a much publicized disagreement with pro-gun actor Tom Selleck in 1999 on her talk show. Selleck walked off the show during taping over O'Donnell's remarks.
Debbie Schlussel, a frequent guest on The Howard Stern Show and an avid supporter of the NRA referred to O'Donnell when she said, "She's not cool. She's a freak." Schlussel went on to bash actor Jude Law who recently admitted in an interview that he hesitated to handle a gun in the filming of his latest movie fearing it would contribute to people thinking guns were cool. Schlussel referred to the heterosexual Law as a "girly-man".
Kelly Anne Conway, a conservative pollster, droned on for some time about how the "liberal" media has forced changes in the public school curriculum that put gay and lesbian tolerance ahead of the basic studies of math, English and History. "They're so worried now about how many mommies Heather has that (the teachers) run out of time" Conway went on to state venomously that gay and lesbian issues aren't important to "real" Americans.
Grover Norquist, an NRA Board Member and columnist for American Spectator Magazine, not to be outdone, put forth the barb; "we don't have annual parades for gun owners so everyone can appreciate that gun ownership is an alternative lifestyle and look at how great we are." He also quipped that liberal Americans "don't want (men) to date women." "

http://gaytoday.com/garchive/events/050102ev.htm

Guess which of the figures named in that story landed on the "Pink Pistols" hate list? Here's a hint: it was the only gay person named.

[DoNotRefill]

24. Please provide a link...

to the "pink pistols hate list". I looked at their site, and couldn't find it.

[MrBenchley]

25. Look again

And while you're there, try and find even a mild word of disapproval for any right wing homophobic group.

Or go to one of the threads in this folder where the RKBA crowd alternate between defending the hate list and pretending that it isn't what it clearly is.

[slackmaster]

27. Tell us again how the Roman Catholic Church supports gay rights

:freak:

[alwynsw]

41. In case you missed it, the purpose of their site is RKBA and

responsible firearms use. The site is not offered as a conduit for other issues.

Yup. Gay rights are up there at the top of the repug platform alright!
Did you notice that the site and organization is by gays, for gays, and about gays - WITH GUNS?

[MrBenchley]

51. I noticed that it's a right wing pantload

"the site and organization is by gays, for gays, and about gays" who supposedly have nothing at all even mildly critical to say about the right wing humholes who want all gays dead ang in hell yesterday...but hate hate hate Barney Frank and Rosie O'Donnell....

Yeah, that's REAL convincing.

"Gay rights are up there at the top of the repug platform"
Not at all, that's why they love to bash gay people...especially Barney Frank and Rosie O'Donnell...

The amazing thing is not that it's dishonest but that it's so transparently dishonest.

[alwynsw]

30. Recycling posts now?

How many times has this old saw been dragged out? Two? Three? An even dozen?

[MrBenchley]

31. Why not?

It's not like the RKBA crowd ever has anything but the same tired lies. How many days in a row is the phony English bloodbath going to be dragged out?

And the post REALLY points up what a steaming pantload this phony gay group is, and what a bigoted bunch of scum the gun rights crowd is...imagine, the only person in all that bigoted shit these "gay activists" found to add to their idiotic black list is the only gay person mentioned. Yeah, that's certainly convincing....NOT!

[alwynsw]

38. Just hoping for at least a rewording of the same tired lines.

[MrBenchley]

43. Why bother?

By the way, it was wonderful to see the website where those skanks were pining for a good old-fashioned lynching bee. That was REAL liberal...NOT.

[slackmaster]

52. Once again, just WHO did that article suggest might deserve lynching?

Was it Mexican immigrants?

Or was it someone else?

Did ANYONE bother to actually read the piece?

"...The Republicans may indeed pass this, through flattering the very communities they intend to devastate when the plan is fully exercised in full force. And they may indeed win an unbreakable stranglehold on the American government, secured by black box voting and McCain's campaign reform that silences incumbent's opposition. However, as John Fitzgerald Kennedy said, "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." In the end, all Congress may find they have gained is a nice hemp necktie, and the common saying of the land about politicians may become "GOT ROPE?".

And I'm sure the good honest decent people of Mexico will follow by also putting their ruling class in their proper place, namely, the gallows."

See http://www.armedfemalesofamerica.com/pointblank/dare.htm

[beevul]

53. Talk...

about an example of a "smoking gun"!! :evilgrin:

[MrSandman]

75. What does hemp

have to do with treason?<sarcasm off>

[Sapphocrat]

17. Yes.

Left-left-lefty here, with a small but historically-significant antique collection I never fire anymore, and a couple of firearms I love to use for target-shooting.

I don't hunt, I've never killed anything with a gun, and I never will. That doesn't mean I wouldn't defend myself with a gun -- but only as a last resort. I'd be just as inclined to pick up a baseball bat if some psycho were climbing in my bedroom window.

I believe in gun control, and see nothing wrong with a background check, waiting period, required instruction in basic firearms safety, and required gun locks / other safety measures.

At the same time, I see no sane reason anyone needs to own automatic/assault weapons. I don't think semi-automatics should be banned (most people don't even know the difference between auto and semi-auto -- but there is one).

I've been shooting since I was nine, and was raised by extremely responsible (and avid) gun owners.

I just don't see any reason sport-shooting and liberalism should be mutually exclusive.

The only right-wing motto I've ever agreed with has been: When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.

It's true, you know -- responsible gun owners might be persuaded to turn in their firearms, but no way are the crims going to turn in theirs.

Hope that answers your question!

[DoNotRefill]

20. The bit about the trigger locks and the baseball bat is SO true...

since a gun with a trigger lock on it is basically a metal and wooden club.

Want a good demonstration with the problems of mandatory trigger locks?

Get your Significant Other. Put a trigger lock on your UNLOADED home defense gun, and put it right next to your bed. Lie down in your bed, cut out the lights, curl up, and have your S.O. simulate breaking into your abode to try and do you harm. Once you hear the "breakin", try and remove the trigger lock, and see if your SO gets to you before you can get your gun unlocked. If you can't, you just died.

[iverglas]

71. Quel hyperbole

Once you hear the "breakin", try and remove the trigger lock, and see if your SO gets to you before you can get your gun unlocked. If you can't, you just died.

Gimme a break.

The only conclusion I can reach from this is: I do not exist.

Back before my parents were married, they spent a week in a rented cottage at a lake with my mother's parents and younger brothers. One night after they had all gone to bed, my grandfather heard someone moving around. "Who's there?" he called out. "Me" came the response ... of a particularly stupid burglar, evidently, who promptly fled the cottage with his partner in crime.

If only my grandfather had had a gun, my parents would have survived and I'd be here today to tell the tale. Obviously, since they didn't have a gun, they died.

Of course, if my grandfather had instead slept through the whole thing, my mother's family would have been plunged into perpetual poverty as a result of the loss of his wallet, or whatever it was that the idiot burglars were after in a rented working-class summer cottage, and my parents would never have been able to afford to marry and have kids.

Either way, I do so wish I were here today having this little chat ...

.

.

[DonP]

35. Off topic but ...

What do you have in your collection, if you don't mind sharing with other folks that enjoy guns and shooting sports?

I haven't gone hunting in over 20 years myself. Even then it was just pheasants and more of an excuse to get out at dawn with my friends and spend a day walking cut over cornfields with a good dog and a thermos of coffee.

A few of us down here are collectors as well. My own vice is WW II Battle Rifles.

Oh, and yes you can definitley be a liberal and a gun owner and shooter

... and one more time:

The second amendment isn't about hunting and your grand daddy's shotgun.

[MrBenchley]

23. From The Nation

"The first President Bush ignored the Brady Campaign. It fell to President Bill Clinton to take up the cause, and to proudly sign the Brady Bill -- legislation named in honor of an American shot in the line of duty, which required a five-day waiting period and a background check for all handgun purchases.

And now it's fallen to the second President Bush to ... dismantle that. His soft-on-Hinckley attorney general has been hard at work on the project of freeing all oppressed handguns. So have the President's radical Republican allies in the Congress, who dutifully stuffed provisions into a spending bill -- the same messy bill discussed in yesterday's post -- to make it harder to track guns, and harder to keep guns out of irresponsible hands. Police and FBI organizations begged Congress to do the right thing; but Congress doesn't even remember what that is anymore. "

http://www.thenation.com/outrage/index.mhtml?bid=6&pid=1206

[MrSandman]

40. Really unbiased primary source there....

"The Brady Background Check has blocked over a million prohibited purchasers since it was enacted. In addition, police have been able to retrieve guns from many criminals who have purchased guns and shouldn't have - because records were retained for a reasonable period of time. Now those guns will stay in those criminals' hands"


http://www.bradycampaign.org/press/release.php?release=539

[MrBenchley]

42. Yes, it's tragic for the RKBA crowd that REAL liberals

like the folks who put out the Nation, respect the Brady Center and know what a right wing pantload that "gun rights" crap is....

Don't worry, those slatterns who wanted to lynch Mexicans are all for RKBA....and you've got John Stossel and Mary Rosh on your side too....not to mention Ann Coulter. You're welcome to them.

[MrSandman]

44. Lynch Mexicans?

I think they were talking about the traditional punishment for treason, in this case Bush-McCain. Didn't expect to see such a misreading to protect Bush here.

[MrBenchley]

46. What ugly skanks...

Since when is lynching "the traditional punishment for treason"?

Sure seemed to me that they were calling out armed religious reich dimwits to go kill some Mexicans.

[beevul]

48. Point of clarification...

Hanging is the traditional punishment for treason.

[MrBenchley]

49. Yeah, and racism is the traditional justification

for lynching...and that anti-Mexican diatribe dripped with it.

[slackmaster]

50. Nobody has said anything about lynching any Mexicans

Someone hasn't taken their blood pressure medication this morning.

Oh yeah, that would be me. Back in a few...

Please see reply #52 in this thread.

[MrSandman]

45. If Ms. Brady has such a valid claim,

Where are the convictions for falsifying a 4473?

[MrBenchley]

47. Take it up with the Nation

I'm sure they'll be happy to hear this horseshit.

[MrSandman]

57. Would it be that prosecutions are...

only padding statistics?
(According to some)

ed for spelling...S

[MrBenchley]

59. Or could it be

another meaningless sideshow from the RKBA crowd?

[MrSandman]

76. Hahahahahahahaha

[slackmaster]

26. I'll see that HELL YES and add a FUCKIN'-A YES!

Classical liberals don't muck with personal liberties.

[Liberal Classic]

32. Hell Yes

I am no knuckle-dragging right winger, though for simply opposing gun control I am said to be one.

I'll answer a question with a question and ask "just because one is not in favor of stronger gun control policies, does it follow that one must also oppose liberal immigration policies?" No, of course not. I am pro-immigration for example, but I am also anti-gun-control.

In short, beevul, the question "Can one be pro-gun AND liberal?" is an example of the fallacy of the excluded middle. Supporting the private ownership of firearms does not automatically make someone conservative.

(Or Nazi, got that Bench?)

[Darranar]

33. Yes...

Gun control is not inherently liberal.

[TyroneStryker]

34. Cun Control is Authoritarian

Not liberal. Gun control is more in line with Hitler, Stalin, and Castro, not Washington, Jefferson, Adams, Kennedy.

[Shylock]

36. Yes

I don't know how you can be liberal and not support the Constitution. The right to keep and bear arms was not put in the constitution for hunters to able to keep shotguns and .22's, it's for revolutionaries to protect our liberty and freedom. Not all liberals are statists, many still beleive in quaint notions like individual rights.

Considering the racist origins of gun control, I'd love to see more people on the left embrace the RKBA philosophy.

[alwynsw]

37. What can I say to that post, except:

:toast: :bounce: :pals: :yourock:

[MrBenchley]

39. What a CONVINCING argument....

I never thought of it like that!

"Considering the racist origins of gun control"
Why, that explains why racist pieces of shit like John AshKKroft and Trent Lott and David Duke and Larry Pratt and Pat Buchanan and the American Nazi party and the KKK and the Aryan Nation all push for "gun control"...oh wait....they peddle this gun rights horseshit instead.

Well, but surely it explains why groups like the American Civil Liberties Union, and the American Ethical Union, and the American Jewish Committee, and the American Jewish Congress, and the Americans for Democratic Action, and the Anti-Defamation League, and the Black Mental Health Alliance, and B`nai B`rith, and the Central Conference of American Rabbis, and the College Democrats of America, and the Congress of National Black Churches, and the Episcopal Church, and the Friends Committee on National Legislation, and the General Federation of Women`s Clubs, and the Gray Panthers, and Hadassah, and the Interfaith Neighbors, and the Jewish Labor Committee, and the League of Women Voters, and the Evangelical Lutheran Church, and the Mennonite Central Committee, and the National Black Nurses` Association, and the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, and the National Association of Social Workers, and the National Council of La Raza, and the National Council of the Churches of Christ in the USA, and the National Council of Negro Women, and the National People`s Action, and the National League of Cities, and the National Council of Jewish Women, and the National Organization for Women, and the National Political Congress of Black Women, and the National Urban League, Inc., and the National Urban Coalition, and the NETWORK: A National Catholic Social Justice Lobby, and the People for the American Way, and the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, and the Union of American Hebrew Congregations, and the Unitarian Universalist Association, and the United States Catholic Conference, and the United Methodist Church, and the United Church of Christ, and the United States Conference of Mayors, and the Women`s National Democratic Club, and the Women`s Int`l League for Peace, and Freedom, and the World Spiritual Assembly all have an alliance with the National Rifle Association...oh, wait, the NRA put ALL those groups on their idiotic "hate list.".

Never mind.

[TyroneStryker]

63. Peddle that rubbish elsewhere

you should be full aware that gun control was originally designed to keep them out of the hands of people like me.

[milliner]

54. Agreeing with the constitution

Always a good thing.

This link might help


http://www.topfive.com/arcs/t5050499.shtml

[MrBenchley]

55. Sounds like the RKBA crowd here....

http://www.topfive.com/arcs/t5050799.shtml

[milliner]

56. A sense of humor?

Gee Mr B, you'll have to be careful, you might become likeable!

[Hammie]

58. I'd say yes

I checked out the definition of liberalism on Websters, http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=liberalism , and according to the actual definition, it would seem that being pro-gun is completely in line with the concept of liberalism.

Not to hijack the thread but as an aside: I was shocked to find that Webster indicates that liberalism is an outgrowth of the Protestant movement. The origin of my shock is the open hostility so many self professed liberals have for Christian religions.



IBTL

[MrBenchley]

60. Uh-HUH

"the open hostility so many self professed liberals have for Christian religions."

[iverglas]

61. mm hmmmm

"the open hostility so many self professed liberals have for Christian religions."

I give up: just how many "Christian religions" *are* there??


The danged thing about "liberals", as I understand it, is that they tend to believe in the improvability of individuals and the human species.

Protestantism (which was arguably better than Roman Catholicism) ---> liberalism

... it would seem like one o' those evolutionary, progress kinda things, just the kinda thing that a liberal might find reasonable, like maybe

laissez-faire capitalism (which was arguably better than feudalism) ---> mixed economy

or

walking upright (which was arguably better than going on all fours) ---> riding a bicycle

herbal remedies (which were arguably better than leeches) ---> antibiotics


Me, I have no problem acknowledging that my own socialism (and atheism) grew out of my early Protestantism. I just improved on it. ;)

Don't know why "liberals" wouldn't feel the same.

.

[MrBenchley]

62. Jinkies!

A thread that started out celebrating the "liberalism" of popgun-toptin' patriots fizzles out with a slur against "self professed liberals."

And last week's thread about "pro-gun Russ Feingold" ended with a post assuring us all that gun nuts despised Russ Feingold.


Damned hilarious.

[milliner]

64. Ahhh finaly

A socialist.

[DavidMS]

65. I thought that liberalism was a reaction against religion.

It got its start after the Roman Catholic Church and the various Prodistant groups butchered eachother between Martin Luther's posting of the 95 theses and the peace of Westphalia. There was a realization that revealed truth was not all it was claimed to be. Looking that Locke, Hume, Hobbes, and latter Voltare, Pane, and Kant rejected a religious ordering of the universe both because it couldn't be supported by direct observation of nature and because of bloody tribal social conflicts that resulted.

Opposed are the romantics who largely desired to go back to the social modes of the dark ages and its opperssive social order.

Romantic Anti-intelectualism isn't dead.

http://www.physics.nyu.edu/faculty/sokal/lingua_franca_v4/lingua_franca_v4.html
http://www.physics.nyu.edu/faculty/sokal/afterword_v1a/afterword_v1a_singlefile.html
http://www.physics.nyu.edu/faculty/sokal/afterword_v1a/afterword_v1a_singlefile.html
http://www.physics.nyu.edu/faculty/sokal/nyu_forum.html

Its lattest form is post modernism and religious textual literalism.

The reasion this liberal doesn't perticulary like gun control is because if people can't be trusted with dangerous objects (like knives) or are so impulsive that we shoot eachoter over parking spaces (even in Texas I understand although its does happen from time to time, it is a rare occurance) that we also cannot be trusted with democratic participation in elections (see Florida in 2000) self governance or any thoughts not officaly allowed.

Tolitarian regiemes can permit large segments of their populace to posess militarialy usefull arms because their minds have already been posioned. And there is a Mukhabarat agent or informer around every cornder. And these illegal governments make non-complience so painfull that only a few brave souls attempt it.

[milliner]

66. Suits me

type on. I like your base of reason

[MrBenchley]

67. Wow....

"Tolitarian regiemes can permit large segments of their populace to posess militarialy usefull arms because their minds have already been posioned."

[milliner]

68. Spin what?

On a somewhat lengthy post you took a phrase. Congragulations

[MrBenchley]

69. And what a phrase!

[alwynsw]

81. Interesting point

Hitler's Brown Shirts immediately come to mind.

Hitler was certainly a totalitarian.

The Brown Shirts were definitely a fairly large segment of the population.

We all know where that program led.

[Hammie]

70. That might be true.

I got the idea from Websters that Liberalism identifies with, at a minimum, the moral and spiritual aspects of Christianity. Moreover, Liberalism, as defined, believes in the autonomy of the individual and respect for civil and political rights. These latter values are generally at the core of the pro RKBA arguments, in particular the belief in individual autonomy. Not only do I think that Liberalism and pro-gun beliefs are consistent, I find that anti-gun beliefs and arguments to represent a significant departure from the ideals of Liberalism.



PDFTT

[Columbia]

72. Exactly right

We had an attempted discussion on this exact subject not too long ago. Unfortunately, it denigrated into a flame fest pretty quickly without much real debate.

"I find that anti-gun beliefs and arguments to represent a significant departure from the ideals of Liberalism."

I'd go further and say that anti-gun beliefs are actually more authoritarian than anything else.

[alwynsw]

74. Give that poster a Kewpie doll!

:bounce:

[MrBenchley]

77. Wow...

Guess that explains all those freedom-loving pro-gun public figures.

John AshKKKroft...he loves freedom so much he wrote a song about it and forces Justice Department employees to sing it....and he's pro-gun all the way.

Ann Coulter....she loves freedom and hates liberals....pro-gun all the way, even claims a defensive use of her popgun.

David Duke, Trent Lott, Tom DeLay, Jeb Bush, Bill Frist, David Horowitz, Jesse Helms, Grover Norquist, Larry Pratt, Pat Buchanan, Sean Hannity, William Pierce, Fred Phelps, Michael Savage, Richard Mellon Scaife, Sun Myung Moon, Jonah Goldberg, Cal Thomas, Buford Furrow, Randy Weaver, Bo Gritz...pro-gun all the way. Those are names synonymous with the love of freedom....NOT.

[Columbia]

78. Sigh

Once again you bring into discussion things that were never brought into play. This is called a strawman arguement. You see, we argue A and you twist A into unrecognizeable B and proceed to bash B under the pretense that it is still argument A. Sorry, that is a patent logical fallacy and without merit whatsoever.

But, just because I'm in a good mood, I will entertain your strawman anyway. In terms of the political spectrum, there are two axis', the social (freedom) scale and the economic (fiscal) scale. Liberals (Democrats) believe in social freedom with some economic constraints. Conservatives (Republicans) believe in less social freedoms (dictating morality i.e. abortion, religion, etc.) and fewer economic constraints. So where does gun rights fall into the mix?

Idealogically, it falls into the liberal realm, but in reality it is kind of lost in the ether and pretty much disavowed by both main political parties. A more true distinction would be that gun rights now falls on the line in between urban and rural areas.

For example, Howard Dean received a A rating from the NRA during his tenure as governor of Vermont, a mostly rural state. On the other hand, Diane Feinstein is one of the most strident gun-control advocates in the Senate and she is from the fairly urbanized California. You can easily find the same kinds of distinctions in Republican party as well.

So what's my point? It is that your constant comparisons of gun rights advocates to conservative wackos are faulty. We fall all along the political spectrum and the Democratic party would do well to court us all by re-adopting the true liberal ideal of social freedom by upholding all rights free from government interference including the right to keep and bear arms.

[MrBenchley]

79. Yup, facts are NEVER brought into play by the RKBA crowd....

"You see, we argue A and you twist A into unrecognizeable B and proceed to bash B under the pretense that it is still argument A."
It's actually that you want to argue "A is B" and then erupt in rage when I point out "A is A."

"For example, Howard Dean received a A rating from the NRA during his tenure as governor of Vermont, a mostly rural state."
And Dr. Dean's position on guns falls a helluva lot closer to mine than it does to the RKBA crowd's here. (By the way, do you want to pretend Dean doesn't know what an assault weapon is either? After all, Dean says he plans to push to expand and renew the AWB.) Even funnier, do you think that his rating will keep the gun lobby from slandering him if he wins the nomination?

"your constant comparisons of gun rights advocates to conservative wackos are faulty"
Not even close to true...as the dozens of real-life examples I can produce with ease demonstrates. (The phony "gay" gun group hasn't got a single actual gay basher on its hate list, but singled out Rosie O'Donnell, Barney Frank and Barbra Streisand.) And it's hilarious to hear that this scummy bunch represent some mighty ideal of the love of liberty when they plainly are prime examples of the opposite.

[Columbia]

80. You know... your argument is akin to...

The schoolhouse comeback of "LIAR, LIAR, PANTS ON FIRE!" and has about as much credence in my book.

[MrBenchley]

82. And the RKBA crowd's is childish and dishonest

You guys can all stamp your feet and pout till you're blue in the face, but the plain facts remain:

--that the bogus "gun rights" doctrine is mainly spouted by far right wing politicians and public figures most noted for their hatred of all things remotely related to liberal principles....AND

--that the blood money the gun industry hands out goes to politicans who also get money for a variety of scummy causes, including pollution, privatization and the limiting of human rights...AND

--that the gun lobby itself has drawn up a hate list targeting just about every liberal group or individual they can find. (Hilariously, since the Brady Group made this hate list public, hundreds of thousands of liberal Americans have rushed to sign up. Do you suppose that's because the NRA is so liberal?)....AND

--that the last time the RKBA crowd tried to draw up a list of pro-gun liberals, it turned out to be half a dozen or so Zell Miller-type DINOs and Dr. Dean, whose position is a lot closer to mine than the RKBA crowd's. (By the way, you haven't answered MY question--are you claiming Dr. Dean, who is all for the Assault Weapons Ban, doesn't know what an assault weapon is?)

[slackmaster]

83. A lot of opinions there but I don't see any real facts

...are you claiming Dr. Dean, who is all for the Assault Weapons Ban, doesn't know what an assault weapon is?

I'm not convinced he does. Dean is like most other politicians - He'll say whatever he thinks will get him the most votes.

[demsrule4life]

84. Childish?

Childish? with statements like "cry me a river" "how many dog turds do you need to eat" "sureeeeeee" "Hahahaha" "peddle it to someone who cares" We are childish? Since I've come here I havent heard any of this since I was in grade school.

[MrBenchley]

85. Yeah, childish

I don't know how else to describe folks who want to pretend reality doesn't exist.....

[demsrule4life]

86. There isn't a progunner here that denies there is a crime

problem and we have to find a way to fix it. It is the anti's that are not living in reality by thinking gun control can solve the crime problem.

[MrBenchley]

87. Gee, dems...

We still got the RKBA crowd trying to spin away the Second Amendment Slatterns' anti-Mexican jihad and their call for a lynching party....it's just doubly hilarious that the defense spilled over to the "we're SO liberal when we wave our popguns around" thread..

[demsrule4life]

88. Cry me a river

no other way to put it.

[MrBenchley]

89. You're the one doing the crying

and I'm the one pointing out the "gun rights" people who hate Mexicans and are sticking up for lynching.

[name not needed]

73. Yes

Its my constitutional right. So leave me alone.

[davidinalameda]

90. locking

have a nice day