How Thousands Of U.S. Guns Fuel Crime In Mexico (NPR)

[struggle4progress]

January 5, 2011

In the past four years, more than 30,000 people have been killed by gunfire in Mexico. But the guns don't originate in Mexico ...

Instead, the thousands of guns used by Mexican drug cartels trickle in through the United States. Since 2006, more than 60,000 of the weapons used in Mexican crimes have been traced back to the U.S. ...

But which U.S. dealers sell guns taken from Mexican crime scenes remains largely unknown. Though the information used to be freely available to anyone who filed a Freedom of Information Act request, the 2003 Tiahrt Amendment passed by Congress prohibits the ATF from releasing gun tracing data ...

But Grimaldi and other Washington Post reporters managed to break the secrecy surrounding U.S. gun dealers. In an article published in December, they revealed which 12 stores sold the most guns that eventually ended up on the streets of Mexico ...

http://www.npr.org/2011/01/05/132652351/tracking-gun-dealers-linked-to-mexican-violence

[cleanhippie]

1. Here is how they get there...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x353288

[struggle4progress]

4. Somebody writing for the Examiner, cites the Sipsey Street Irregulars blog, citing anonymous posts

on a forum at cleanupatf

And let's remember who the Sipsey Street Irregulars are:

Vandals Attack Dem Offices Nationwide
Justin Elliott | March 23, 2010, 1:00PM
... Pinson, Alabama-based blogger Mike Vanderboegh has been tracking the breaking of windows at Dem offices after issuing a call Friday: "To all modern Sons of Liberty: THIS is your time. Break their windows. Break them NOW" ... The Kansas City Star identifies Vanderboegh as a former leader of the Alabama Constitutional Militia. His blog, Sipsey Street Irregulars, identifies with the so-called "Three Percenter" doctrine ... http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/03/vandal_attacks_on_dem_offices_nationwide.php#more

[one-eyed fat man]

7. self-delete, mis-posted, NT

[jeepnstein]

2. I'm willing to bet...

it's not the guns fueling the violence. It probably has more to do with a multi billion dollar industry that revolves around the smuggling of illegal drugs into the United States. Drug smugglers don't take their business disputes to court because, well, drug smuggling is illegal. You don't see most Fortune 500 companies hiring teams of assassins to deal with the competition because they have a much less barbaric way of maximizing their profits.

Your average Mexican is no more likely to kill someone with a firearm than anyone else in the world. By far and away most of them I've known are really nice folks. It's when you get groups that somehow believe they have a great thing going by living outside the law that people start turning up with their heads chopped off and stuff.

Stomping on my Civil Rights is not going to solve a thing in Mexico.

[benEzra]

3. You do realize that most of the following "U.S. Guns" are GOVERNMENT guns, not civilian-market, yes?

"U.S. guns" is not synonymous with "guns purchased on the U.S. civilian market and smuggled across the border." I'm not saying that the latter doesn't occur, but the military-grade weaponry the cartels are using are coming via U.S. weapons exports and subsequent diversions, not from straw purchasing.

[cleanhippie]

5. A-hem. Facts have no place here in the gungeon.

[Katya Mullethov]

6. Not when it comes to something this important

Which is why our own state dept has made it such a high priority . What might their ulterior motives be ? Why is this such a high priority that it is getting spiked on a monthly basis ?

I wasnt around for it , but I will assume that muggled up negro jazz musicians were causing just as much havoc in the late 20's and early 30's , so tell your children .

[struggle4progress]

9. ... In 2009, ATF reported to Congress that about 90 percent of the guns recovered in Mexico that ATF

has traced were initially sold in the United States ...

U.S. Department of Justice Office of the Inspector General Evaluation and Inspections Division
Review of ATF’s Project Gunrunner
November 2010
I-2011-001
<pdf:> http://www.justice.gov/oig/reports/ATF/e1101.pdf

via:

Firearms from U.S. being used in Mexico drug violence
Cartel leaders are hiring Americans to make the purchases for them
NBC News and news services
updated 12/14/2010 8:44:50 AM ET
... Authorities say the straw buyers are paid up to $200 per weapon and cite a recent case in Oklahoma City, where a former state narcotics agent pleaded guilty in such a gunrunning scheme. Francisco Reyes, 29, was accused of paying two friends to buy dozens of firearms destined for Mexico, according to court documents. One of those buyers, Jorge Alexis Blanco, bought at least 15 guns and attempted to buy three more, according to Michael Randall of the ATF in the criminal complaint ... Authorities say they have no doubts that weapon purchases are being used to fuel the violence in Mexico, including a recent case known as the "Acapulco Police Massacre," in which four officers and three secretaries were murdered. Guns used in that and other cases were traced to Houston. Overall, the Southwest border states, especially Texas, California and Arizona, are the primary sources of weapons used by the cartels in Mexico ...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40572312/ns/world_news-americas/

[slackmaster]

10. Key words "...that ATF has traced..."

They wouldn't bother tracing weapons that obviously had not originated in the USA.

[struggle4progress]

17. ... Mexican President Felipe Calderón, speaking to a joint session of Congress Thursday, pleaded for

more help in limiting the flow of weapons to Mexico, saying they were contributing to the devastating drug violence in his country ... "I understand that the purpose of the Second Amendment is to guarantee good American citizens the ability to defend themselves and their nation," he said. "But believe me, many of these guns are not going to honest American hands." ... Calderón said his government had seized 75,000 guns in Mexico in a three-year period and found that 80 percent of those whose origin could be traced were bought in the United States ...
Mexico's Calderón tells Congress he needs U.S. help in fighting drug wars
By Mary Beth Sheridan
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, May 21, 2010
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/05/20/AR2010052002911.html

[X_Digger]

19. Again, reading comprehension- "of those whose origin could be traced "

The point, you missed it, again.

[RSillsbee]

49. In other news 90% of illegal dope sold in America traced to Mexico NT

[X_Digger]

18. What percentage of seized guns are traced?

According to the office of the Presidente, about 30%.

[one-eyed fat man]

22. Warning, warning, bogon flux is rising......*

Let's run through this again slowly.....

The ATF was able to trace 90% of the guns it was asked to trace. Ok, we got that, you got that, most everyone holds that as pretty close to reality.

The mistaken 90% Claim

What you are trying to get us to believe that the Mexicans asked the ATF to trace every gun they seized. A claim, which even on it's face is ridiculous. Just precisely where in Arizona is Тульский оружейный завод located? It's a pretty good bet there are few arsenals in Texas regularly using the Cyrillic alphabet. Even the dimmest of bureaucratic drones is likely able to figure that out that gun was probably not of US origin.!

Maybe you do believe that, but even the Mexicans do not claim that. The best estimates are that somewhere between 17% and 37% of the guns the Mexicans seize are submitted for tracing. Based on ATF testimony to Congress testimony, of the guns guns submitted for tracing over a two year period, 9,950 guns from U.S. sources. That figures out to just over 34 percent of guns recovered, assuming that the 29,000 figure supplied by Mexico’s attorney general is correct.

Unlike you, the Washington Post and the, rest of the mathematically challenged propagandists you are sourcing, the ATF does not say that, never said, "90% of the guns seized in Mexico are traced to the United States."

Why are you propagating such an elaborate fraud? A few minutes research would easily show the 90% claim as bogus. Is the deception deliberate or unwitting?

*1. The degree to which something is bogus. Bogosity is measured with a bogometer; in a seminar, when a speaker says something bogus, a listener might raise his hand and say “My bogometer just triggered”. More extremely, “You just pinned my bogometer” means you just said or did something so outrageously bogus that it is off the scale, pinning the bogometer needle at the highest possible reading (one might also say “You just redlined my bogometer”). The agreed-upon unit of bogosity is the microLenat.

You owe me a new bogometer..........

[X_Digger]

25. Not even that..

Of the 50% that they were able to trace, 90% came from the US.

In FY 2007, the Mexican government submitted 11,000 guns to the US for tracing. Of those, ~6,000 could be traced. Of those, 90% came from the US.

Here's a quick visual representation-

[benEzra]

24. And once again, U.S. made machineguns, Title 2 assault rifles, grenades, M203's, etc.

originate in the United States but are sold only to governments. Governments like Mexico's. You did notice that in both those pics, the Mexican police are keeping watch with U.S.-made, military/government-restricted weapons in their hands, yes?

Again, I'm not saying that *all* of the U.S. made guns are coming via diversion from Mexican government contracts or from Cold War proxy war stockpiles via Guatemala, but a whole lot of them are.

The supply of military-grade, U.S.-restricted hardware to the cartels is not affected in the slightest by restrictions on U.S. civilian guns. Civilian guns are, however, a convenient scapegoat for various officials to point to in order to distract from the failures of Prohibition in the USA and the endemic corruption in the government of Mexico.

[Glassunion]

50. Did you even read your own link?

I'm specifically referring to the DOJ PDF that you linked.

You state, expressing all details in a clear and obvious way, leaving no doubt as to your intended meaning: "In 2009, ATF reported to Congress that about 90 percent of the guns recovered in Mexico that ATF has traced were initially sold in the United States...

A quote(in full context) from the document you linked: William McMahon, Deputy Assistant Director for Field Operations, ATF, before the Committee on Homeland Security Subcommittee on Border, Maritime, and Global Counterterrorism, U.S. House of Representatives, concerning “Combating Border Violence: The Role of Interagency Coordination in Investigations” (July 16, 2009), homeland.house.gov/Hearings/index.asp?ID=205 (accessed August 25, 2010). However, in September 2010, in response to a draft of this report ATF told the OIG that the 90-percent figure cited to Congress could be misleading because it applied only to the small portion of Mexican crime guns that are traced. ATF could not provide updated information on the percentage of traced Mexican crime guns that were sourced to (that is, found to be manufactured in or imported through) the United States.

[one-eyed fat man]

8. Explain to me please!!!!!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=351376&mesg_id=351403

You and those guys at the Wa Po, NYT, and NPR seem to have smoked entirely TOO much of that stuff!

As long as the cartels have so much cash that there incomprehensible amounts of 100 dollar bills in pictures all over the internet, they are NOT reduced to buying guns at retail over the counter in the United States.

That some guns are getting bought that way by some Mexican crooks, no doubt. But the grenades, rocket launchers, RPG's mortars, crew-served machine guns are NOT coming from gun shows in Arizona, Texas or anywhere else. Anyone who says they are is a liar and anyone who believes they are is a fool.

During Prohibition gangsters would smuggle in rum from the Caribbean and whiskey from Canada and bring it into the U.S. This was supplemented by poor quality liquor made in homemade stills. The gangsters would then open up speakeasies, i.e secret bars, for people to come in, drink, and socialize.

Al Capone did not have a guy drive up through Wisconsin slip across the border and buy a bottle of "Ol' Head Buster" at retail and bring it back to Chicago. There was enough money they did it by the truckload, the boatload, even trainloads, on a wholesale level. They paid off those they could buy off and killed those they couldn't. There's not a damn thing different except the Canadian government didn't declare a war on distillers and it wasn't against the law for Canadians to sell booze, even by the truck, train or ship full.

Explain to me how changing the laws in the United States is going to limit the flow of arms from the Sandinista, the North Koreans, or corrupt Mexican officials to the cartels? Your post is like worrying about a dripping faucet in the galley while ignoring the iceberg on the Titanic!!

[struggle4progress]

11. ... A $125 handgun sold in San Diego sells for three times that sum in Tijuana, 18 miles away, and

$500 or more farther south. And violations of some United States gun laws — for example, falsifying gun-sale records — are mere misdemeanors that rarely lead to long prison terms. One Mexican federal police officer, Alfonso Cuéllar Guevara, made more than $100,000 in less than two years buying 231 handguns from Texas gun shops and smuggling them to Mexico City. He received an 18-month federal sentence in Texas. Had he smuggled $100,000 worth of cocaine into the United States, he would have faced at least 15 years in prison ...
May 19, 2001
U.S. Guns Smuggled Into Mexico Aid Drug War
By TIM WEINER and GINGER THOMPSON
http://www.criminology.fsu.edu/transcrime/articles/U_S_%20Guns%20Smuggled%20Into%20Mexico%20Aid%20Drug%20War.htm

[slackmaster]

20. Do you know how much of a hassle it is to buy a handgun in California, s4p?

Serious question, and here's the answer in case you don't know:

3. What is the process for purchasing a firearm in California?

All firearms purchases and transfers, including private party transactions and sales at gun shows, must be made through a licensed dealer under the Dealer Record of Sale (DROS) process. California imposes a 10-day waiting period before a firearm can be released to a buyer or transferee. A person must be at least 18 years of age to purchase a rifle or shotgun. To buy a handgun, a person must be at least 21 years of age, and either 1) possess an HSC plus successfully complete a safety demonstration with the handgun being purchased or 2) qualify for an HSC exemption.

As part of the DROS process, the buyer must present "clear evidence of identity and age" which is defined as a valid, non-expired California Driver's License or Identification Card issued by the Department of Motor Vehicles. A military identification accompanied by permanent duty station orders indicating a posting in California is also acceptable.

If the buyer is not a U.S. Citizen, then he or she is required to demonstrate that he or she is legally within the United States by providing to the firearms dealer with documentation that contains his/her Alien Registration Number or I-94 Number.

Purchasers of handguns are also required to provide proof of California residency, such as a utility bill, residential lease, property deed, or government-issued identification (other than a drivers license or other DMV-issued identification).

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs.htm

[Katya Mullethov]

21. Is there a flow chart ?

?o=3&sortby=sevendaysview

[struggle4progress]

23. Western Firearms in Bell CA made the Washington Post top ten list

See

A New Image Problem for City of Bell
by Oscar Garza on December 13, 2010
http://blogs.laforward.org/2010/12/13/la-forward-reports/a-new-image-problem-for-city-of-bell/

[slackmaster]

27. And they are still in business, because they are following the laws and procedures

What do you think they should do, s4p, stop selling firearms to people who look Hispanic?

[PavePusher]

68. Ooooo, ooo, ooo, oooo!

I'll take "Profiling" for $500, Alex!

[one-eyed fat man]

26. Bogus again

The Justice Department disagrees with you!

The penalty provision for a violation of § 922(g) appears at 18 U.S.C. § 924(a)(2), which provides that a person who "knowingly" violates § 922(g) "shall be fined as provided in this title, imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both."

Ten years in prison sounds like a FELONY to me!

[struggle4progress]

29. Lessee. Article said: "violations of some United States gun laws — for example, falsifying gun-sale

records — are mere misdemeanors that rarely lead to long prison terms." Looking up your reference to 18 U.S.C. § 924, I find

(3) Any licensed dealer, licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed collector who knowingly -
(A) makes any false statement or representation with respect to the information required by the provisions of this chapter to be kept in the records of a person licensed under this chapter, or
(B) violates subsection (m) of section 922, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than one year, or both

§ 922(m) says

It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector knowingly to make any false entry in, to fail to make appropriate entry in, or to fail to properly maintain, any record which he is required to keep pursuant to section 923 of this chapter or regulations promulgated thereunder

So (just as the article stated) knowingly falsifying records certainly doesn't lead to long prison terms

[one-eyed fat man]

31. Lessee, the Depratment of Justice says

1431 Department Memorandum—Prosecutions under 922(g)

Title 18, United States Code, Section 922(g) makes it unlawful for certain classes of individuals to ship, transport, possess or receive any firearm or ammunition with the required interstate commerce nexus. Those prohibited classes of persons are: convicted felons (§ 922(g)(1)); fugitives from justice (§ 922(g)(2)); unlawful users or addicts of controlled substances (§ 922(g)(3)); mental defectives (§ 922(g)(4)); illegal aliens (§ 922(g)(5)); dishonorably discharged servicemen (§ 922(g)(6)); and persons who have renounced their U.S. citizenship (§ 922(g)(7)). The penalty provision for a violation of § 922(g) appears at 18 U.S.C. § 924(a)(2), which provides that a person who "knowingly" violates § 922(g) "shall be fined as provided in this title, imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both."

emphasis added

[PavePusher]

47. What kind of handgun sells for $125?

The cheapest ones that I know of are HiPoints, which generally go for about $150-160.

[struggle4progress]

12. ... John Avelar, 32, of El Paso and Jonatan López-Gutiérrez, 33, of Mexico were sentenced,

respectively, to 37 months and 48 months in prison, after pleading guilty to their roles in a gun-smuggling scheme. The indictment against them and others listed several weapons purchased from licensed dealers in El Paso, including a .50-caliber sniper rifle, then apparently smuggled into Mexico ...
Firearms in Mexico have ties to El Paso
By Diana Washington Valdez / El Paso Times
Posted: 12/13/2008 11:52:10 PM MST
http://www.elpasotimes.com/juarez/ci_11229197

[one-eyed fat man]

30. Even you disagree with you!!!!!

".....were sentenced, respectively, to 37 months and 48 months in prison..."

"And violations of some United States gun laws — for example, falsifying gun-sale records — are mere misdemeanors that rarely lead to long prison terms."

So, were they convicted of "mere misdemeanors"?

Three or four years in prison an insignificant amount of time?

[friendly_iconoclast]

52. The first step to conquering factose intolerance is admitting you have a problem.

Looks like someone isn't quite ready to take that first step...

[struggle4progress]

14. ... The men sentenced this week were enlisted by the Gulf Cartel drug trafficking syndicate, largely

because their U.S. citizenship and clean criminal records provided a way to pass a federal check for gun buyers, according to court papers. They pleaded guilty to lying on a federal form by stating the guns were for their own use. The guns turned up at a range of crime scenes, including the murder of police officers in Acapulco and the kidnapping of a Puebla businessman ...
Nine tied to Houston-Mexico gun deals heading to prison
By DANE SCHILLER
HOUSTON CHRONICLE
Jan. 19, 2010, 8:46PM
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/6825298.html

[struggle4progress]

15. ... The probe isolated the top 12 US dealers of guns traced to Mexico, and uncovered the biggest:

Bill Carter, whose Houston-area chain of stores is the source of more than 115 guns seized in the past 2 years. Of the remaining 11, seven are in Texas, which has 3,800 gun retailers, three are in Arizona, and one is in California. Drug cartels coming to the US for their guns isn’t new, says an authority—but the volume of high-powered rifles heading south of the border is. Some 60,000 US guns have been seized in the past 4 years. "One of the reasons that Houston is the number one source, you can go to a different gun store for a month and never hit the same gun store," said an ATF agent ...

Texas Top Seller of US Guns Traced to Mexico
Washington Post probe reveals leading dealers
By Matt Cantor, Newser Staff
Posted Dec 13, 2010 9:09 AM CST
http://www.newser.com/story/107433/texas-top-seller-of-us-guns-traced-to-mexico.html

[GreenStormCloud]

60. That works out to about ONE gun per month per store.

115 guns divided four stores = 28.75 guns per store over a TWO YEAR period.

28.75 guns divided by 24 months = 1.2 guns per month per store.

At that rate he isn't getting rich off of straw purchases going to Mexico.

How do you expect his employees to identify a straw purchaser? The truth is that you want to put all gun stores out of business.

[struggle4progress]

16. ... the Lone Wolf Trading Company in Glendale topped the list nationwide. The Washington Post said

Lone Wolf took the number one slot for Mexican traces after it found that 185 guns recovered in Mexico were traced back to their store over the past two years. The Post also said Lone Wolf came in eighth in the country for the total number of guns traced by law enforcement ...
Glendale shop found to be No. 1 for guns found at Mexican crime scenes traced back to their shop
<Published Dec 21 2010 by ABC15.com>
http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/region_west_valley/glendale/glendale-gun-shop-found-to-be-no.-1-for-guns-found-at-mexican-crime-scenes-traced-back-to-their-shop

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[one-eyed fat man]

35. Pole vaulting over mouse turds!!!

"...the number one slot...185 guns recovered in Mexico were traced back ...over the past two years."

Assuming that the 29,000 guns seized figure supplied by Mexico’s attorney general for the same time period is correct:

185 / 29,000 = 0.00637931034

Well, that is certainly a significant figure!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[one-eyed fat man]

54. Which is it????

"Lone Wolf took the number one slot for Mexican traces after it found that 185 guns..."

"The probe isolated the top 12 US dealers of guns traced to Mexico, and uncovered the biggest: Bill Carter, whose Houston-area chain of stores is the source of more than 115 guns seized in the past 2 years."

How do you justify claiming Bill Carter being the biggest dealer? Is he fatter than the Lone Wolf guys in California? Is 115 bigger than 185? Please review


Let's see, first it's a California gun store selling 185 guns that's the biggest source of guns in Mexico! Nope, then you assure us it's a chain in Houston that sold a one hundred fifteen guns in two years from four stores. Damn!!!!!! Land office business!! One hundred fifteen guns over a two year period means a gun every 9140 minutes and 52 seconds. That works out to a gun every 25.6 days per store!

A gun a month for the "cartel's" biggest (sic) arms supplier!

Based on the guns in this one picture



He must have started selling guns to the Mexicans before Travis, Crockett and Bowie were at the Alamo!

[struggle4progress]

63. ... Of the leading stores with Mexican traces, Lone Wolf, eighth on the nationwide list, is No. 1 on

on the Mexico list ...

U.S. gun dealers with the most firearms traced over the past four years
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/12/AR2010121202667_5.html?hpid=topnews&sid=ST2010121203267

[PavePusher]

65. So what? You have yet to make any kind of point.... n/t

[one-eyed fat man]

70. One more time

Some small number of guns are bought in the US by individual Mexican criminals. Your own numbers and sources, for the stores you claim are the biggest merchants of death since Ernst Stavro Blofeld, sell one lousy gun a MONTH on average.

What you just cannot grasp, refuse to acknowledge, completely ignore, totally discount, cannot countenance is that the drug cartels are getting real military grade hardware from the FARC, leftovers from the Sandanistas, the Contras, the North Koreans, the Chinese and from corrupt Mexican officials.



If you had so much money that you needed tractor trailer trucks to carry the cash, would you be wasting your time buying some piece of shit chrome plated pimp killer, over the counter, from a damn pawn shop in Glendale, at full retail price or a plane load, wholesale, from from someone like Viktor Bout?

If he can deliver an An-125 full of enough guns to outfit Charles Taylor's thugs in Liberia or the Janjaweed militia in the Sudan, do you think the Mexicans are are too dumb, too inefficient, or not well enough financed to do, smuggler to smuggler, a similar deal?

Once again, give me a clear and unambiguous explanations of how changing the laws in the United States will have the tiniest effect on slowing the flow of genuine military grade hardware across the border from Guatemala?

Or is your concern for the trickle of guns diverted from the US civilian market and your complete refusal to even acknowledge the torrent of illicit arms from other sources based on other goals?

I suspect with your slavish repetition of the demonstrably deceptive "90% of drug cartel guns" theme, your concern over the lives of trafficantes is a insincere.

You'd be a lot better off if you demanded 'dead Mexican free' dope from your dealer. It worked for dolphins and tuna. To every doper who claimed a 'little 420' never hurt anyone.........



You smoke it, you buy it, you pay for it and you underwrite the trade and all that goes with it, with your cash.

[one-eyed fat man]

73. Is this a different you?

struggle4progress Fri Jan-07-11 06:26 PM Response to Reply #8

"15. ... The probe isolated the top 12 US dealers of guns traced to Mexico, and uncovered the biggest: Bill Carter, whose Houston-area chain of stores is the source of more than 115 guns seized in the past 2 years."

How do YOU square that claim with this one?

"Of the leading stores with Mexican traces, Lone Wolf, is No. 1 ..."

[spin]

13. Sounds like the typical, "We need another assault weapons ban" bullshit ...

And the politicians and the media know damn well that an assault weapons ban in the U.S. would do NOTHING to reduce the supply of weapons the drug cartels in Mexico use in their wars.

Perhaps the reason that the drug cartels are so powerful is the strict gun laws in Mexico which they don't obey.

[Bold Lib]

32. Heckler & Koch probed over Mexico arms sales

http://www.thelocal.de/national/20101222-31963.html

[struggle4progress]

37. ... current scandal concerns the sale of over 8,000 G36 rifles to the Mexican police ...

Graesslin's informant says that H&K's travel and hotel accounts show that their employees went to the banned states, and he says they trained policemen with the G36. The informant also says H&K paid General Aguilar, at the time responsible for the Mexican state weapons purchasing body DCAM (Direccion de Comercializacion de Armamento y Municiones), $25 for every G36 that was sold on into the illegal provinces. "That would be called corruption," says Graesslin. "According to the informant, H&K bribed him to fulfil orders in the banned regions." ...
Disarmament | 03.01.2011
Investigation closes in on German weapons company
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,14742625,00.html

So your post seems off-point: it concerns direct arms sales to embargoed state authorities, in violation of German law. Arms sales to authorities are an interesting issue: 2005-2009 the US sold about $1.5 billion in arms to Mexico (see http://justf.org/Sales ) but that's not the topic of the thread

[Bold Lib]

38. The post is very on target. You must have missed this part

It has no control, it says, over how the ministry then distributes the guns.


But I understand you missing that, it doesn't fit into you agenda and preconceived ideas. Very understandable.

[struggle4progress]

44. Hmpf: "authorities suspected Heckler & Koch of breaching .. laws that forbid sales

authorities suspected Heckler & Koch of breaching .. laws that forbid sales .... to four Mexican states in which human rights abuses have taken place. The firm has a lawful export licence to other parts of Mexico ... Heckler & Koch is claiming it does not work with any particular state in Mexico, but rather sells weapons only to the responsible authorities under control of the Mexican Defence Ministry ... It has no control, it says, over how the ministry then distributes the guns"

So H&K was accused of selling laws to forbidden state authorities but says it actually sells to Mexican Defence Ministry and cannot control if MDM redistributes the arms to the forbidden state authorities: it's a different topic

[Bold Lib]

45. No matter how much you wish to disqualify this it is very relevant. I'll refer you to

post 41. LMAO!!!!

[PavePusher]

67. So, gun stores sell to seemingly legal buyers and can not control...

if they then redistribute the arms to forbidden criminal actors.

IT'S THE SAME FUCKING TOPIC.

Disingenuousness is no disguise for making political hay out of mere hot air.

[X_Digger]

41. That is the point of post #3, and the one you responded to-

Namely that many of the guns photographed and seized do not come from the US consumer market- some come directly from manufacturers (as in the case of H&K) or via the state department's sales of weapons to the mexican government (mostly weapons that are very highly regulated in the united states, via provisions of the 1934 National Firearms Act and are generally unavailable in your local gun store. ie, short barreled rifles, 40mm grenades, full auto, etc.)

eta: formatting

[struggle4progress]

46. Thread concerns verifiable movement of weapons to Mexican criminals from US retail market

There is, not doubt, a large and interesting topic beyond that -- the question of the complete weapons picture in Mexico. But it's off-topic

[X_Digger]

48. Not off-topic if a significant portion of the ones seized are not from the US retail market..

I can understand you trying to beat this dead horse some more, as it fits with your meme quite nicely.

Reality, however, would like to have a word with you.

[benEzra]

56. Actually, that is *EXACTLY* the topic of this thread.

So your post seems off-point: it concerns direct arms sales to embargoed state authorities, in violation of German law. Arms sales to authorities are an interesting issue: 2005-2009 the US sold about $1.5 billion in arms to Mexico (see http://justf.org/Sales ) but that's not the topic of the thread.

Actually, that is *EXACTLY* the topic of this thread.

Government-only weapons seized from the cartels:



More government-only weapons seized from the cartels, with a few civilian guns mixed in:



Where do you think those restricted weapons came from? Since they didn't come from the U.S. civilian market.

The resolution in that pic is too low to read the writing on the cartels' seized body armor, but if it says "POLICÍA", that'd be a clue...

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:MDb2BJewJGp06M:&t=1

[Euromutt]

69. As others have noted, it's highly relevant

The H&K G36 is nowhere near as popular with Mexican state police forces as American-made M16 and M4 variants are. Federal-level organizations like the armed forces and the federal police make very limited use of American-made firearms, because they're first in line for the domestically produced guns; the bulk of American-made guns delivered to the Mexican government go to the state police forces, which are, not entirely coincidentally, the most corruption-ridden elements in the Mexican government apparatus. For a narcotraficante, it is easier, cheaper and more attractive to purchase M4 select-fire carbines by the crateload from a state police armorer than it is to buy semi-auto-only AR-15s in dribs and drabs as they can be smuggled across the US-Mexican border. But they're all guns that can be "traced to US sources."

And the fact is, as has been pointed out umpteen times on this sub-forum, that the supply of guns doesn't fuel crime; rather, it is criminal demand that spurs the illicit supply. Gun traffickers who use straw purchasers to acquire guns in, say, Mississippi and then run those guns to Chicago wouldn't bother if there weren't a criminal demand for guns in Chicago to begin with. Similarly, the Mexican DTOs have a demand for firearms, and given their financial reserves, that demand will be met with supply. Even assuming that they got a significant number of firearms from the U.S., if measures were put in place to hamper that, they'd buy Russian-made guns from FARC, shipped via Venezuela, or directly from Norinco in China (the Chinese don't give a fuck who they sell to as long it's not in Asia), or from the Balkans (Bulgarian, Serbian and Croatian organized crime), etc. etc. et fucking cetera.

[Bold Lib]

33. Some interesting facts that disprove the myths.

Deep inside a heavily guarded military warehouse, the evidence of Mexico's war on drug cartels is stacked two stories high: tens of thousands of seized weapons, from handguns and rifles to AK-47s...

In all, the military has 305,424 confiscated weapons locked in vaults, just a fraction of those used by criminals in Mexico...

The Mexican government has handed over information to U.S. authorities to trace 12,073 weapons seized in 2008 crimes...

About a third of the guns submitted for tracing in 2007 were sold by licensed U.S. dealers.

I don't know about you, but I'm pretty much sick and tired of the transparent falsehoods that characterize so much of what the gun grabber cartel is all about. I hope you join me in correcting the record whenever you see them promulgated
http://www.gunslot.com/pictures/mexican-warehouse-exposes-gun-grabber-cartel-lies
____________________________________________________________________________________________


Well, so much for the myth of Mexico cartels getting all their guns from the U.S. But hey, maybe if THEY believe it they will be willing to share the cost of a very big wall along the border.

[Katya Mullethov]

59. What a sight that must be

A 40 million dollar bucket of guns that don't leak !

[lawodevolution]

74. "33. Some interesting facts that disprove the myths. "

Can you provide links to this stuff so I can use them?

[Bold Lib]

34. More information on ATF ‘walking’ guns across Mexican border

http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-national/more-information-on-atf-walking-guns-across-mexican-border

[Katya Mullethov]

39. Sung to the tune

Of that old South Texas favorite , "Walkin' my guns to Mexico "
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NoQ3dJ5PKo

[struggle4progress]

40. "The essence of what I’ve been told," he writes -- without an indication of source. We've already

established David Codrea's most-clearly-documented claims come ultimately from an anonymous and unsubstantiated forum post later cited by "Sipsey Street Irregulars," mostly known to us as the blog owned by a guy enthusiastic about breaking Democrats' windows

[Bold Lib]

43. Actually, what we've already established

is that you will not accept anything that contradicts your preconceived idea of reality.

[PavePusher]

66. Which in no way disproves anything.

But you knew that....

[Euromutt]

71. Which puts it on a par with damn near anything on HuffPo

I mean, there's nothing wrong with being skeptical, but there's a difference between refusing to accept a claim unless and until it's corroborated on the one hand, and dismissing a claim purely on the basis of its source on the other. Personally, I'm not inclined to believe that ATF agents are running guns across the border to pad their numbers without some heavy-duty evidence to support that scenario, but at the same time, I'm not going to entirely dismiss it just because I think Codrea's a twat (which, to be honest, I do).

[Bold Lib]

36. Another look at the numbers

In 2007-2008, according to ATF Special Agent William Newell, Mexico submitted 11,000 guns to the ATF for tracing. Close to 6,000 were successfully traced -- and of those, 90 percent -- 5,114 to be exact, according to testimony in Congress by William Hoover -- were found to have come from the U.S.

But in those same two years, according to the Mexican government, 29,000 guns were recovered at crime scenes.

In other words, 68 percent of the guns that were recovered were never submitted for tracing. And when you weed out the roughly 6,000 guns that could not be traced from the remaining 32 percent, it means 83 percent of the guns found at crime scenes in Mexico could not be traced to the U.S.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/04/02/myth-percent-small-fraction-guns-mexico-come#ixzz1ANkUI1LG

[Bold Lib]

42. Soooo, where does the Mexican cartels really get their guns???

http://www.threesources.com/archives/006326.html

So, if not from the U.S., where do they come from? There are a variety of sources:

-- The Black Market. Mexico is a virtual arms bazaar, with fragmentation grenades from South Korea, AK-47s from China, and shoulder-fired rocket launchers from Spain, Israel and former Soviet bloc manufacturers.

-- Russian crime organizations. Interpol says Russian Mafia groups such as Poldolskaya and Moscow-based Solntsevskaya are actively trafficking drugs and arms in Mexico.

- South America. During the late 1990s, the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) established a clandestine arms smuggling and drug trafficking partnership with the Tijuana cartel, according to the Federal Research Division report from the Library of Congress.

-- Asia. According to a 2006 Amnesty International Report, China has provided arms to countries in Asia, Africa and Latin America. Chinese assault weapons and Korean explosives have been recovered in Mexico.

-- The Mexican Army. More than 150,000 soldiers deserted in the last six years, according to Mexican Congressman Robert Badillo. Many took their weapons with them, including the standard issue M-16 assault rifle made in Belgium.

-- Guatemala. U.S. intelligence agencies say traffickers move immigrants, stolen cars, guns and drugs, including most of Americas cocaine, along the porous Mexican-Guatemalan border. On March 27, La Hora, a Guatemalan newspaper, reported that police seized 500 grenades and a load of AK-47s on the border. Police say the cache was transported by a Mexican drug cartel operating out of Ixcan, a border town.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I guess this explains how it is that so often pictures of seized arms in Mexico have grenades in them. Unless you think that you can purchase those here in the U.S. - at gun shows - with no questions asked. LMAO!!!

[friendly_iconoclast]

51. K&R- due to the utter demolition of the argument made by the OP n/t

[X_Digger]

53. Let's do some light fisking..

In the past four years, more than 30,000 people have been killed by gunfire in Mexico. But the guns don't originate in Mexico.
..
Instead, the thousands of guns used by Mexican drug cartels trickle in through the United States.

All 30,000 people were killed by guns not brought into the country legally? That's a bold claim, James. No gun originally from the MX military has been used to kill any of these 30,000? If you look up that 30k figure, that includes cartel members killed by the police and military.

The one gun store in the country, located in Mexico City, is operated by the Mexican military and under very tight security.

Let's see what our very own Xela (an MX native) had to say on the matter-

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=350331#350535

...Mexican nationals exchange/sell/trade/buy firearms freely and legally in Mexico between themselves, and without recurring to the UCAM (the store you made reference to), all the time.

The forums mentioned earlier* both have buy/sell/trade sections in order to do so. Hunting and shooting clubs are also places where they trade, and so are target ranges. It was even reported in the Mexican media how civilians could obtain just about anything they wished in the black markets of Tepito (Mexico, City).

As of recently, many major newspapers even allowed classified notices to buy/sell/trade firearms. Some have moved away from doing so, unfortunately.

* The previously mentioned forums were- http://www.mexicoarmado.com/forum.php and http://enlamira.com.mx/foros/ (ie, here's a 'for sale' post- http://enlamira.com.mx/foros/showthread.php?t=72191 )

Continuing..

Since 2006, more than 60,000 of the weapons used in Mexican crimes have been traced back to the U.S.

This number isn't sourced.

When you look for a source, you find this GAO report-

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d09781t.pdf

Adding up the numbers from 2007 and 2008, you get a total of- 9,760. If you add in 2009's 4,449 (http://www.mayorsagainstillegalguns.org/downloads/pdf/issue_brief_mexico_2010.pdf) you get 14,209.

Now if we compare to Calderon's own statement before congress-

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2010/05/mexican_president_challenges_c.html

Just to give you an idea, we have seized 75,000 guns and assault weapons in Mexico in the last three years. And more than 80 percent of those we have been able to trace came from the United States — from the United States.

Let's ignore the bolded part for now and focus on the numbers.

14,209 of 75,000 = 19%

eta: But wait, I see wapo's mistake... .. 80% of 75,000 is.. wait for it.. 60,000!!!

Continuing on:

"We're the closest country, it's easy to get guns, it's not difficult to cross the borders with the guns when you get them, and there's very little stopping gun runners from doing that," he tells Fresh Air's Terry Gross.

What, is Mexico on a peninsula? No, Belize and Guatemala also border Mexico, and Guatemala, at least, is a much easier border to smuggle through.

So let's get back to the bolded section.. "of those we have been able to trace". According to 2006-2009 figures, on average, only about 55% of guns sent to the ATF for tracing can be traced.

http://www.atf.gov/press/speech/2009/032409_newell-testimony.htm

http://www.atf.gov/press/speech/2009/031709ad-hoover-doj-testimony.pdf

Ahh wapo. Never let a little truth get in the way of a moral panic.

[Glassunion]

55. +1

[friendly_iconoclast]

57. +1 Well done. Truth is poisonous to those promulgating moral panics

May you be ever ready to supply a dose!

[Bold Lib]

61. Excellent post. Thank you for taking the time to parse the OP so thoroughly .

[jazzhound]

62. YES! Great post, and a perfect example of why gun "control"

is going down in flames.

Light fisking? I believe it was closer to opening up a can of whoop-ass on a drunken thesis.

[Katya Mullethov]

58. This all seems so familiar

It is a really hard sell but if they keep this monthly eruption up for another 10 years it will be considered conventional wisdom . Who knows where it could go after 30 or 40 years of market development .

[Tejas]

64. How 100's of thousands of guns from elsewhere (besides the US)

Oh wait, this is about banning guns in the US to make Calderon look good, NOT solving Mexico's problem with the 100's of thousands of weapons imported into Mexico from elswhere in the world.

[spin]

72. It would be a feather in Calderon's cap to disarm the United States ...

it wouldn't solve any of the problems in his country but it would make people "feel good" that he was actually doing something to address the problem.

It would actually make good sense to loosen the restrictions on civilian ownership of firearms in Mexico. That might actually cause the crime rate to fall. Of course the government of Mexico is far too corrupt to survive if they allowed this to happen

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

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