What kind of father allows an 8 year old to use an Uzi!?

[WI_DEM]

There's lots of blame to go around. A 15-year old put in charge of uzi's at a gun show? even though the 15 year old apparently showed more common sense than the dad, who wasn't charged with anything:

The teenager who worked at a gun show where 8-year-old Christopher Bizilj accidentally killed himself while shooting an Uzi testified today he twice suggested the boy's father pick a less powerful weapon for the boy to shoot.

But Christopher's father, Dr. Charles Bizilj, insisted that his son be allowed to fire the automatic weapon, Michael Spano told the court. Spano was 15 at the time of the 2008 Massachusetts gun expo and was put in charge of allowing people to fire the 9 mm Micro Uzi, a submachine gun that fires 20 rounds a second.

Former Pelham, Mass., police chief Edward Fleury is on trial for the boy's death. He is charged with involuntary manslaughter. He has pleaded not guilty.

The most dramatic moment of the trial came Thursday when the court watched video recorded by Charles Bizilj of the boy handling the gun. The father, who was on the stand at the time, closed his eyes as the video showed the boy struggling to handle the gun's recoil. The barrel reared up and shot the boy in the head. The court room gasped and the boy's mother left the courtroom in tears.


http://abcnews.go.com/US/father-christopher-bizilj-died-firing-uzi-urged-son/story?id=12565132

[Electric Monk]

1. {insert "Guns don't kill people" drivel here}

[krispos42]

2. A dumbass one.

I wouldn't let an 8-year-old use anything but a .22 rifle.

The tiny micro-Uzi has a rate of fire twice that of an AK-47 and it weights very little. It also has no buttstock to brace against the body. So the only thing keeping it under control is the strength of the shooter's hands. And 8-year-olds aren't strong enough. So, the gun whips up and backwards, bending the kids wrists and elbow until the gun's muzzle is right under the kid's face.

The father is a dumbass, and his kid paid for it. :grr:

[brendan120678]

7. [Warning: heartbreaking picture included] Looks like this particular gun...

may have had some type of buttstock...

Here's a still from the video, just prior to the horrible incident:






edited to add the warning on the subject line. While it isn't a particular graphic photo, it does document the last moments of this young boy's life.

[skypilot]

8. A bit off-topic but...

...photos taken of people moments or even hours before their deaths are really disturbing to me. We are actually seeing one of the last moments of this boy's life in this picture. Really disturbing and sad.

[brendan120678]

11. I understand...

I considered putting a disclaimer on the subject line.
And I do feel the same way when I look at this picture. I just wanted to use it for explanation purposes.

[skypilot]

14. I hope you didn't think that...

...I was criticizing you for posting the picture. I wasn't.

[brendan120678]

15. No I understand.

But as I mentioned, I had considered putting a warning on the subject line for that very reason, I just wasn't sure how to word it at first.

[lepus]

28. Thank you for not posting video

I would not watch it anyways. I think doing so would break my heart.

We know what happened. Many of us do not want or need to see it.

Bad judgment all the way around. A father determined to let his son fire a machine gun, a man running a shoot without ensuring a qualified range master is in place. A 15 year old kid being placed as a range master without enough experience to say "No" to the kid and his father.

I do not want to sound unsympathetic. There is a lot of blame to go around. If any one person had said no, the kid would be alive and well right now.

[krispos42]

12. I remember on "World Wildest Videos" or similar show...

...they had a little girl saved from an out-of-control monster truck by a security guard. The guard scoops the girl up, runs over to a jersey barrier, then flings her over it before being run down and killed by the truck. You see it on a video somebody from the stands shot.

But, the kicker is that somebody right in front of the barrier took a shot with a still camera right before the truck hit the guard. His arms are up, the girl is flying through the air, and the dark mass of the truck is looming up behind him.

Damn, got something in my eye. :-(

[skypilot]

16. That still photo sounds like the stuff of nightmares to me.

*

[Recursion]

30. Slate just did a piece about that today, oddly enough

http://www.slate.com/id/2279923/

[krispos42]

10. Oh, it might be a mini-Uzi then

They made 3, IIRC... Uzi, mini-Uzi, and micro-Uzi, and each one shoots faster than the last due to having lighter moving parts.

The buttstock on those is made of stamped steel, and I don't think there is any kind of padding or non-slip coating on the shoulder end of it. In fact, it probably made the situation worse.

If the kid wasn't holding the gun tight against his shoulder when he pulled the trigger (and I doubt he was) then the stock would have slipped down. The added weight of the stock would have actually helped the recoil torque the gun's muzzle skywards... into his face. :-(

[benEzra]

25. According to all reports I've read, it was a Micro. (n/t)

[RamboLiberal]

27. Here's a good pic of the Uzi involved

The Republican / Michael S. GordonJanuary 7, 2011- Springfield - During the trial of former Pelham Police Chief Edward B. Fleury Friday in Hampden Superior Court for charges related to the accidental shooting death of Christopher Bizilj, 8, of Ashford, Ct. on the shooting range of a machine gun show at the Westfield (Mass) Sportman's Club in October 2008, Massachusetts State Police Sgt. John F. Crane, supervisor of the State Police Firearms Identification Section in Springfield, demonstrates to the jury the Micro Uzi that Christopher Bizilj was using when the accident occured.


"It appeared to me he was unsure where to place his hands and where to place the shoulder stock," Crane told the jury, referring to a video taken by Dr. Charles Bizilj of Christopher of the fatal shooting and the moments preceding it.

Crane stood in front of the jury with the weapon, demonstrating safety features.
Crane said he test-fired the gun. The recoil to him in automatic mode when he test-fired it was considerable, he said.

http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2011/01/state_police_sgt_john_crane_uzi_christopher_bizilj_edward_fleury_trial.html

[Recursion]

31. The range master said the stock got caught on the boy's coat under his armpit

So it does seem to have made things worse.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

46. self delete`

[RamboLiberal]

23. Testimony & Pictures today did show it had a buttstock

Initially reading the stories I thought it hadn't, but it did. Still no difference, it was way too light and too much muzzle flip for this little boy to handle.

IMHO the dad should be on trial as well.

[RamboLiberal]

36. Only for those who want to see the kick of the gun

The Sun website does show the video till the gun jammed on Christopher and the 15 year old takes it from him to clear the jam. It does not show the fatal moment.

I'd say look at it only for the forensic evidence and for the reaction of someone behind the line (maybe the father) who cheers at Christopher and the Uzi's kick with a big WhoaHo!

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3336638/Dad-cant-watch-son-death-footage.html

And FWIW at least one Boston station did show the video as the Uzi is rearing back towards Chris - they stop it as it's at about 45 degrees before it has crossed midline towards the fatal shot. http://www1.whdh.com/news/articles/local/12003205126436/father-takes-stand-in-mass-uzi-death-trial/

[Euromutt]

37. The Micro-Uzi does have a folding stock, actually

See photos here: http://world.guns.ru/smg/isr/uzi--micro-uzi--mini-uzi-e.html

It is, however, not a particularly solid one. Note that all Uzis do also have a grip safety; if the grip safety isn't depressed, the gun will not cock or fire. To the best of my understanding, the deceased dropped the weapon and then tried to catch it.

I can see the temptation to opt for the Micro-Uzi; it only weighs three pounds or so, so it's probably a lot easier for a small kid to hold. Unfortunately, easy to hold does not translate into easy to control while firing, especially since the Micro-Uzi has a cyclic rate of fire of 1,200-1,300 rpm (partly due to the light weight of the bolt).

[krispos42]

38. If I wanted my kit to fire a full-auto, it would be a tripod-mounted SAW

Heaviest gun possible with the lightest round possible.

:shrug:

I'd prefer a Civil War Gatling gun for him, but technically those aren't machine guns. Although he's probably love to crank one of those puppies, too. I know I would.

I've seen the video of the full-auto shoot in Oklahoma or Nebraska a few year ago. The was a young girl, maybe 10-ish, firing a machine gun. I think it was an M1917 on a tripod. Might have been a Vickers. But it was something heavy, belt-fed, and tripod-mounted. No chance in hell of tipping that one over. Those usually had elevation screws on them, right? So they can't even tilt them up or down without cranking something.

It most definitely NOT the lightest gun with a medium-sized cartridge, as was the case in Massachusetts.

[hlthe2b]

That is what I have been trying to figure out since it happened...

I look down at my beloved doggy girl and think of how obsessed I can become in anticipating anything that might get her in trouble or harm her when I'm at work and she is home alone. I can only imagine how I would be with a child.

It is just unfathomable to me that the father, a doctor, would not have considered what could happen with a weapon that powerful, especially with a 15 year old acting as the "expert in charge."

Unfathomable. Yes, accidents happen--no matter how much one tries to avoid or anticipate. Shit happens. But this? I don't think so...

[PavePusher]

35. I will counter with this:

Firstly, due to our heavy, overbearing restrictions on full-auto firearms, very few people have a good understanding of their principles, let alone the reality of operating one. Fewer still can reliably appreciate their operation in the hands a complete novice.

Secondly, 9mm isn't particularly powerful, in a semi-auto pistol. (I've had 11-year old girls go through a box of 100 .45 ACP in a 1911 and pout because we ran out of ammo...) But, when you take into account the rate of fire of a full auto, the leverage and momentum add up faster than most people (see item one...) can imagine. Most people don't have the faintest understanding of simple Newtonian physics.

Add Firstly to Secondly and you have a recipe for disaster in the hands of an adult, let alone a child.


The fix? Better science education in schools, along with some basic firerarms training in schools, and repeal of the full-auto firearms restrictions.


Edit: Oops, looks like benEzra beat me to the gist of it : http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&forum=118&topic_id=353082&mesg_id=353458

[hlthe2b]

40. Age, maturity, training and appropriate supervision are necessary....

for safe handling of anything so dangerous. All four were clearly missing.

Good luck with getting better science education in schools, though I certainly wouldn't disagree on the need for any number of reasons that have nothing to do with firearms. Maybe you can get the NRA to focus on that collaboration--science education-- rather than selling out to the loony RW fundies with their science education-destroying concepts of creationism. Now that would be a move that would earn NRA a lot more supporters on the "left." I'd be the first to sing their praises.

[Puregonzo1188]

3. Who is the one on trial? Not the 15 year-old I hope.

[hlthe2b]

5. I believe the organizer of the event--a former police chief IIRC...

[Puregonzo1188]

6. Ok--thanks.

[meegbear]

4. I would speculate Dr. Charles Bizilj

[LibertyLover]

9. What kind of father? An extremely stupid one.

In reading the article I see that the video may be replayed in court at least one more time, possibly in slow motion. I know the father is not on trial, but I wish somehow the judge could order that he watch that video every day for the rest of his life to hammer home his stupidity. Heck, I'm an adult and I wouldn't shoot a full-auto. I've shot semi-autos and that was fine with me. I'd also like to know what the IQ is of the person who puts a 15 year old in charge of handling live-fire Uzis? Of course, as it turned out, the 15 year old had the best and most mature judgment of just about anybody at the show. Would that Dr. Bizilj had listened to him - Christopher would probably be alive today.

[TheCowsCameHome]

13. The whole mess is rife with stupid actions.

I don't think anyone was thinking straight that day.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

18. Deleted sub-thread

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[tootrueleft]

19. I suppose the NRA will be organizing a rally locally at some stage.

Wouldn't put it past the clowns since Columbine.

[DonP]

24. Yeah, that makes sense - not at all

Since the NRA is the leading source of gun safety training in the country and probably trained your local cops as well as thousands of other police forces I'm sure they would want to support a poorly organized and unsafe operations like this shoot.

But maybe I missed the references to any NRA sponsorship or involvement?

Or are you just making shit up as you go along?

[PavePusher]

29. How, pray tell, did they "hold a rally" for Columbine?

Cite to evidence, please?

[DissedByBush]

32. Thoroughly debunked

That wasn't a rally, it was their legally-required annual meeting that has to be arranged years in advance.

An NRA annual meeting is a big affair, multiple days, guns, accessories, knives, hunting stuff, everyting out the wazoo

It's like a big fair, and in the middle of it they have their required meeting. They make a huge chunk of money.

After Columbine they scaled it back almost to just the basic meeting.

Michael Moore deceived you with lies and tricky editing.

[hfojvt]

20. just an idiotic MD

"I gave permission for him to fire the Uzi,” Bizilj said. “I watched several other children and adults use it. It’s a small weapon, and Christopher was comfortable with guns. There were larger machine guns with much more recoil, and we avoided those.”

Bizilj, the medical director of the emergency department at Johnson Memorial Hospital in Stafford Springs, Conn., said that his son was “very cautious, very well trained, and very much enjoyed firing.”

When his son pressed the trigger Sunday, it was the first gun he had fired all day. “It took about an hour to get there, and it was something he was looking forward to for months,” Bizilj said.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2008/10/police_identify_6.html

[Katya Mullethov]

43. But not an ER doc

They know everything about self defense and weapons .

[left is right]

21. I have no love for guns. I think the potential for maiming or killing at gun shows is too high

but I don’t understand the former PC being the sole person to be tried for manslaughter is wrong. I think the father should also be tried. Oh well, at least the 15 year old isn’t being tried

[oneshooter]

26. This was not a "gun show" at all. It was a shooting opportunity, using full auto weapons.

At a gun show there are no loaded weapons allowed. All firearms are checked at the door, and tied with a plastic pull tie to assure that they remain that way.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[PavePusher]

33. "I think the potential for maiming or killing at gun shows is too high"

And yet, it happens so rarely that it is big news on the few occasions it does occur.

Many more people have car accidents on the way to/from such shows than will be injured at them.

[RamboLiberal]

34. 2 others are to be tried later

Spano(the 15 year old acting as a firing line officer) is the son of Domenico Spano who is also charged with involuntary manslaughter for his role in providing the guns at the expo. A third man, Carl Guiffre, faces identical charges. Both men have pleaded not guilty and are awaiting trial.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/father-christopher-bizilj-died-firing-uzi-urged-son/story?id=12565132

[krispos42]

39. The potential for maiming or killing while driving on a highway is very high as well

All that kinetic energy floating around being controlled by all those different people. Nonetheless, despite "potential", the "actual" maiming and killing is very low. It's why it makes national news when it happens.

[malaise]

22. A moron n/t

[saras]

41. It's a Darwin award on a technical

If a kid isn't strong enough, and mature enough, to be given the gun without his dad around...

he isn't old enough to be shooting the gun, period.

It doesn't mean the dad SHOULDN'T be around, but the idea of an 8-year-old with an Uzi for real is just so incredibly unreasonable, there's no excuse for trying to make a toy out of it. It's not a hunting gun, its purpose is to kill people.

[PavePusher]

45. ...which can of course, be useful in self defense.

You left that part out...

[Tejas]

42. Obvious flamebait is obvious.

No sign of OP (imagine that).

[Katya Mullethov]

44. Be fair

This was intended to be a GD circle jerk , and not likely flame bait .

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

47. I've let more than a few kids fire my Mac11 machinegun.

With their parents permission or request. When you take something that unique to a range it will attract attention. Sometimes a little kid asks if he can shoot it. Parents usually consent or ask for them. Proper spotting and instruction is a must. Always keep your hand on the long magazine underneath the gun and a hand on their back. Let them shoot the first few shots in semi-automatic so they can get a feel for the recoil.

Youngest kid I ever had ask/try was probably about 6-8... he didn't have the strength to successfully pull the trigger safely/correctly. Most open bolt machineguns have stiff trigger pulls. I felt bad for the kid. Poor little guy.