Question, opinions on CC at the AZ event

[GSLevel9]

let me start off by saying I had a CCW in AZ when I lived there in the 90's. I've owned dozens of firearms and have been in close contact with them most of my life.

I was imagining the situation in Tucson and thought to myself, OK if I was there and I had my CC Glock 29 on my person and I witnessed the shooter. So I'd draw my weapon, close the distance, identify and order him into compliance while holding him in my sights.

At that time I realized... I'm at a scene of an ongoing crime, with security and LEO onsite. That's a helluva' way to get shot. If you have a LEO responding to the scene and they see ANYONE holding a gun and possibly FIRING at someone... you're going to get shot yourself. Sure, later they'd figure out you were a hero but you'd be dead.

[Tunkamerica]

1. that's exactly what i brought up earlier.

Now imagine 2 or 3 people with guns. Maybe one of them saw what happened, maybe they just heard the shots. Now they've all drawn their weapons and are trying to suss out which of the people with guns is the culprit. In come the authorities. Sounds awesome.

[Euromutt]

12. Why yes, It does Stand To Reason that mayhem should ensue, doesn't it?

And yet, nobody can ever come up with a single example of a multi-way blue-on-blue gunfight erupting. Generally, everybody seems to have a pretty damn good idea who the offensive shooter is, probably because he's the only one shooting at other people who don't have guns.

[SteveM]

21. According to the news I saw, there were in fact folks nearby who had guns...

one of which kept his firearm under wraps until he was upon the shooter, and aided in subduing him. He did NOT reveal his weapon for fear of the consequences in the OP's remarks.

Don't you think this was pretty much all over by the time LEO arrived? No need for "awesome" conjecture in this case.

[friendly_iconoclast]

2. Got any real-world examples of your "friendly fire" incidents?

The idea has been discussed many times here in the Guns forum, but to my knowledge, no one has ever come up with an example.

[GSLevel9]

3. nope never heard of one

Just thinking about today's incident.

Thinking about my own reaction if I were there. It's a tough call...

[RamboLiberal]

8. Don't know about civilian but several instances of police

being shot by fellow officers when the officer off-duty in plain clothes has drawn their gun in a crime incident.

I remember reading news reports at the time of the shootings. Seemed to happen more often with African-American officers being the ones shot.

I also remember reading Massad Ayoob account analyzing a couple of these incidents.

[X_Digger]

4. Unless he were pointing it at me / mine, I'd seek cover and be a good witness.

I'm not law enforcement, I don't have a hero complex.

In this case, I don't think there was any security / LEO presence on-site. iirc, it took 15 minutes for the police to arrive, and 15 more for EMS.

[GSLevel9]

5. It's tough to say what we'd do.

I guess it depends on proximity to the shooter and perception of danger. nt

[friendly_iconoclast]

6. I mostly agree with you. CCW holders are not cops, and shouldn't try to be.

Then again, if someone like that is close enough for you to have a realistic shot at them, they're close enough to have a good

shot at you.


So what would I do if someone like Laughner was inside my threat radius? I don't know, and I devoutly hope never to have find out.

If they were within the 21 foot line, I would charge them (I'm not a small guy). Better than standing there like cattle.

[X_Digger]

7. True, I didn't specity distance..

I was just reading another thread re the guy in a store across the way who was armed, and eventually helped tackle / restrain the shooter. I was coming at it from his perspective, perhaps unconsciously.

[RamboLiberal]

9. One guy interviewed on CNN was carrying

He was in Wahlgreens when he heard the shots. By the time he figured out what was happening 2 people had already wrestled the gunman to the ground. He says he helped in holding him down till police arrived and didn't draw his gun.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x147606

[RSillsbee]

10. Not the best plan

So I'd draw my weapon, close the distance, identify and order him into compliance while holding him in my sights.

Some idiot did this in a Burger King that was being robbed In Miami. The robber turned and shot him multiple times

[Kolesar]

11. We are talking fantasy here: God could intervene or Captain Kirk could phaser stun the whole block

from orbit 250 miles above the Earth.

[Katya Mullethov]

13. Or I could be flailing away with my handbag like a Muscaria crazed berserker swinging a morning star

I keep my mastadonic testicles in my purse , and that makes for a hell of a wallop .

[PavePusher]

17. And yet, armed Citizens have a pretty good track record...

against criminals.

Must be a pretty consistent fuckin' miracle, amiright?

[Tunkamerica]

18. no, it's probably about 50-50 if all things are equal.

[PavePusher]

20. What's your evidence?

Or is that a WAG?

[SteveM]

22. Link?

[slackmaster]

14. My training for that kind of situation didn't include saying anything to the assailant

You just shoot if you have a chance.

[shadowrider]

24. Correct

Identifying yourself simply allows him to determine the immediate threat to HIS life and to react accordingly.

[benEzra]

15. In this particular situation (packed crowd), I'm not sure a CCW would have been much of a factor

until after the first shots were fired and the crowd began to scatter, unless either one of the victims or someone standing very near them were the one(s) armed. A CCW options in an attack on one's person or in the rare-but-hyped mass shooting scenario (Virginia Tech, New Life Church, Luby's, etc.) but this was a political assassination followed by shooting afterward.

FWIW, in an active-shooter situation with the aggressor so clearly obvious, I'm not sure that "identify and order into compliance" is the right course of action. He has already demonstrated a willingness to ruthlessly kill and is holding the murder weapon in his hand looking for more targets. A verbal challenge is often a good idea, but self-defense law does not require it, particularly if a situation is so clear-cut.

And you are correct that mistaken identity would be a huge concern.

[SteveM]

23. What may have helped would be some armed entourage members...

I don't know if any of the Congresswoman's staff were armed, but if some were, they may have been able to return fire. This is dangerous, but it may have been better than 20 people hit. Does anyone have info on her personal security?

[PavePusher]

16. Except that there was no security on-scene.

If there was, it's their job, until they can't contain the situation, or your life is in danger, or your family.

If you have to take action, you give commands clearly and loudly, so that others will have some clue that you are not the instigator: "Shooter, drop your weapon!!" at a minimum. In my case, I'd be yelling: "U.S. Air Force, drop your weapon!! as loudly as I could. This is one of many aspects of such a scenario that you must think out before-hand, and be prepared to deal with.

It's obvious that you haven't previously done so.

Another aspect is what to do if you do still have your weapon in hand when law enforcement arrives. There is plenty of written and live-action training out there, I suggest you look into it.

[mvccd1000]

19. No security or LEO on scene, and none arrived until 10-15 minutes after it ended...

...according to the news reports I've seen so far.

I'd say getting shot by the police was about the last thing you would have had to worry about in that situation.