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caseymoz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 02:07 AM Original message |
Cost of 2nd Amendment Freedoms |
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villager (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 02:10 AM Response to Original message |
1. predictaby unrecc'd. Expect snark to follow. But little in the way of conversation. |
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TPaine7 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 04:11 AM Response to Reply #1 |
13. "Little in the way of conversation" is more your style, actually. |
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aikoaiko (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jan-11-11 12:05 AM Response to Reply #1 |
86. Your post is the perfect example of snark and little conversation. |
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Abq_Sarah (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 02:12 AM Response to Original message |
2. If you don't have the ability to defend your life |
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TPaine7 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 02:23 AM Response to Reply #2 |
3. Exactly. |
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caseymoz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 02:33 AM Response to Reply #2 |
5. I agree. So, what's a reasonable amount of self-defense? |
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TPaine7 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 03:16 AM Response to Reply #5 |
11. A hydrogen bomb. Really? |
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reggie the dog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 04:54 AM Response to Reply #11 |
23. i will be more direct |
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TPaine7 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 05:11 AM Response to Reply #23 |
27. This deserves a serious answer, |
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reggie the dog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 05:51 AM Response to Reply #27 |
28. fair enough |
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badtoworse (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 09:12 AM Response to Reply #23 |
42. It goes back to the concept of a militia |
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OneTenthofOnePercent (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 11:52 AM Response to Reply #42 |
58. You are mostly correct... |
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Atypical Liberal (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 11:24 AM Response to Reply #23 |
52. On 2nd amendment arms |
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krispos42 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 11:44 AM Response to Reply #23 |
57. There are broadly two conditions that the line is drawn on |
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TheWraith (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 05:25 PM Response to Reply #23 |
81. Would you like to know the difference between France and Chicago? |
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TPaine7 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jan-11-11 12:29 AM Response to Reply #23 |
88. I agree with krispos42 in post 23 |
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caseymoz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 12:10 PM Response to Reply #11 |
59. You talk about irony going over somebody's head. |
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TPaine7 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jan-11-11 01:47 AM Response to Reply #59 |
92. Facts trump opinion, even honest opinion. |
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GreenStormCloud (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 01:58 PM Response to Reply #5 |
73. Yes, CCW permit holders have PROVEN themselves trustworthy. |
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Abq_Sarah (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 05:49 PM Response to Reply #5 |
84. Reasonable? |
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Rainbow Wave (44 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 02:37 AM Response to Reply #2 |
6. There is little evidence owning a gun allows you to defend your life. |
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ProgressiveProfessor (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 02:43 AM Response to Reply #6 |
8. As one whose personal experinence is to the contrary, I disagree |
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Rainbow Wave (44 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 10:14 AM Response to Reply #8 |
46. I don't place much stock in personal anecdotes. |
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GreenStormCloud (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 02:01 PM Response to Reply #46 |
74. The Kellerman study has long since been discredited. |
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jazzhound (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 03:03 AM Response to Reply #6 |
10. "There is little evidence owning a gun allows you to |
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Rainbow Wave (44 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 10:18 AM Response to Reply #10 |
47. If you have a gun in your home |
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X_Digger (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 10:20 AM Response to Reply #47 |
48. We have critiqued Kellerman et al. repeatedly. |
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Rainbow Wave (44 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 11:27 AM Response to Reply #48 |
53. I doubt we'll ever agree |
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X_Digger (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 12:18 PM Response to Reply #53 |
61. Don't let facts get in the way of a good faith-based argument. |
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Rainbow Wave (44 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 12:47 PM Response to Reply #61 |
62. The facts are on my side. |
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X_Digger (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 01:03 PM Response to Reply #62 |
63. That's just it.. it's not anecdote |
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Rainbow Wave (44 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 01:30 PM Response to Reply #63 |
67. I'm not a climate change denier. |
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X_Digger (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 01:42 PM Response to Reply #67 |
68. Those anti-gun 'studies'? Were hased on surveys.. LOL!!! |
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Rainbow Wave (44 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 01:50 PM Response to Reply #68 |
70. Um, no. |
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X_Digger (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 01:56 PM Response to Reply #70 |
72. Please read the methodology-- it's a case-control study |
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Rainbow Wave (44 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 02:25 PM Response to Reply #72 |
77. Like I said. |
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X_Digger (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 02:35 PM Response to Reply #77 |
78. You're entitled to your own opinions, not your own facts.. |
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Rainbow Wave (44 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 11:53 PM Response to Reply #78 |
85. Sweden? |
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X_Digger (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jan-11-11 08:57 AM Response to Reply #85 |
96. You're right, switzerland.. not enough caffeine |
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GreenStormCloud (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 02:06 PM Response to Reply #67 |
75. Mexico has extremely strict gun control, and they have lots of gun violence. |
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Name removed (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 03:37 PM Response to Reply #75 |
79. Deleted message |
GreenStormCloud (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 03:43 PM Response to Reply #79 |
80. Actually, only about 16% of their guns come from the U.S. |
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shadowrider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 05:47 PM Response to Reply #67 |
83. In other words |
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Name removed (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jan-11-11 04:40 AM Response to Reply #53 |
95. Deleted message |
Name removed (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jan-11-11 04:36 AM Response to Reply #47 |
94. Deleted message |
Atypical Liberal (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 11:27 AM Response to Reply #10 |
54. Exactly: They key is past or present CRIMINAL ACTIVITY |
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Atypical Liberal (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 10:50 AM Response to Reply #6 |
51. this has been refuted many times. |
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Abq_Sarah (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 05:35 PM Response to Reply #6 |
82. Uh-huh |
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Jenoch (67 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 02:24 AM Response to Original message |
4. Because |
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caseymoz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 02:39 AM Response to Reply #4 |
7. You might have observed that I said that in closing. |
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TPaine7 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 02:47 AM Response to Original message |
9. All rights have costs |
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caseymoz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 01:26 PM Response to Reply #9 |
65. And yes, rights carry costs. I'm glad you say this. |
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jazzhound (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 03:30 AM Response to Original message |
12. In order for your points to be taken seriously, you |
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sharesunited (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 04:11 AM Response to Original message |
14. 2nd Amendment "freedoms" amount to nothing more than the freedom to have bullets enter our bodies. |
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TPaine7 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 04:19 AM Response to Reply #14 |
15. Because you claim the right to have bullets enter your body, |
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sharesunited (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 04:25 AM Response to Reply #15 |
16. Advocate instead for a mutual covenant to waive that "right" for the common good. |
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TPaine7 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 04:35 AM Response to Reply #16 |
19. See post 9. I will not advocate for the waiving of rights "for the common good" |
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sharesunited (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 04:49 AM Response to Reply #19 |
22. What's creepy is your literal embrace of the right to have bullets enter our bodies is |
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TPaine7 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 05:03 AM Response to Reply #22 |
25. Not "our bodies" sharesunited, |
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Straw Man (986 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 05:05 AM Response to Reply #22 |
26. Our bodies... |
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sharesunited (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 06:19 AM Response to Reply #26 |
29. Sure, Loughner will be punished. Whoop de frickin do. Very helpful to the dead and maimed. |
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gravity556 (576 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 07:21 AM Response to Reply #29 |
33. scarcity? |
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Katya Mullethov (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 08:49 AM Response to Reply #33 |
37. Ascencion aaaaaaalmost got retaken by the citizens |
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Straw Man (986 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 12:17 PM Response to Reply #29 |
60. Crime and punishment. |
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caseymoz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jan-11-11 02:53 PM Response to Reply #29 |
99. You're not ever going to achieve scarcity in this society. |
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Straw Man (986 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 04:28 AM Response to Reply #14 |
17. A society in which you can be so conveniently killed... |
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sharesunited (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 04:35 AM Response to Reply #17 |
18. Your remedy is the illness, tragically ironic as illustrated by events. |
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Straw Man (986 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 04:40 AM Response to Reply #18 |
20. By what events? |
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sharesunited (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 04:47 AM Response to Reply #20 |
21. Guns and ammo in the hands of the public. Literally obtained over the counter at a retail store. |
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Straw Man (986 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 05:00 AM Response to Reply #21 |
24. Still looking for that Constitutional right to homicide? |
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Euromutt (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 08:52 AM Response to Reply #17 |
38. I think I've lived in that state, or at least in the next zip code |
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Remmah2 (971 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 08:46 AM Response to Reply #14 |
36. Reflecting on your post. |
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Atypical Liberal (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 11:29 AM Response to Reply #14 |
55. How so? |
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spin (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 02:13 PM Response to Reply #14 |
76. Not having second amendment rights does not stop bullets entering our bodies either ... |
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john donathon (53 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 06:30 AM Response to Original message |
30. are you saying |
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caseymoz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jan-11-11 02:37 AM Response to Reply #30 |
93. No, but you also should weigh that against other risks inherent with a gun. |
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john donathon (53 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 06:35 AM Response to Original message |
31. should nobody |
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LAGC (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 07:20 AM Response to Original message |
32. What "reasonable regulations" would you propose? |
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bowens43 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 08:11 AM Response to Reply #32 |
35. A total and complete ban on private citizens owning hand guns would be a good start. nt |
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LAGC (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 09:02 AM Response to Reply #35 |
40. How would you hope to achieve this goal? (n/t) |
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Katya Mullethov (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 09:23 AM Response to Reply #40 |
44. You just declare war |
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bowens43 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 08:10 AM Response to Original message |
34. Outside of the framework of a well regulated militia |
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oneshooter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 08:54 AM Response to Reply #34 |
39. And your historical evidence of this is? |
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Euromutt (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 09:06 AM Response to Reply #34 |
41. Snore. |
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Atypical Liberal (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 11:33 AM Response to Reply #34 |
56. Please explain... |
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lawodevolution (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 09:17 AM Response to Original message |
43. Like I've pointed out before, nations with low gun possession rates and strict gun control are more |
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X_Digger (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 09:43 AM Response to Original message |
45. Lots of opinions asserted as fact..let's break this down.. |
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caseymoz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jan-11-11 01:07 AM Response to Reply #45 |
90. I'll tell you what you need to show me to win this argument. |
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X_Digger (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jan-11-11 10:09 AM Response to Reply #90 |
97. You made a statement of opinion without fact.. |
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caseymoz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jan-11-11 02:43 PM Response to Reply #97 |
98. Thank you for info. I'll start studying it. |
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X_Digger (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jan-11-11 02:55 PM Response to Reply #98 |
100. Right, the sources linked in the table are non-positional. |
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caseymoz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jan-11-11 06:04 PM Response to Reply #97 |
101. One last thing: your stat on the number of defensive uses of guns? |
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X_Digger (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jan-11-11 06:36 PM Response to Reply #101 |
102. You're comparing apples to oranges.. |
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caseymoz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Jan-12-11 12:03 AM Response to Reply #102 |
109. So, instead of telling me that the moon is 500 miles away, you're saying it's 750. |
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X_Digger (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Jan-12-11 12:26 AM Response to Reply #109 |
110. You're also comparing the defensive gun uses from 1994 to crime stats from today. |
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jody (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 10:41 AM Response to Original message |
49. The issue is simple and you miss it. Government is not obligated to protect an individual unless |
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KansasVoter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jan-11-11 06:52 PM Response to Reply #49 |
104. wow, just wow. |
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Atypical Liberal (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 10:46 AM Response to Original message |
50. You are correct on one thing. |
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Kennah (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 01:21 PM Response to Original message |
64. While the Fourth Amendment ... |
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Kennah (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 01:28 PM Response to Original message |
66. On the assertion that the Congo is a society |
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SteveM (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 01:46 PM Response to Original message |
69. Problems with your observations... |
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caseymoz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jan-11-11 01:27 AM Response to Reply #69 |
91. I'm told Gifford herself was armed. |
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GreenStormCloud (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-10-11 01:54 PM Response to Original message |
71. It would also lead to an increase in crime. |
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aikoaiko (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jan-11-11 12:08 AM Response to Original message |
87. I think its safe to say that all freedoms can be exploited by malicious people |
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Francis Marion (188 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jan-11-11 12:48 AM Response to Original message |
89. Benefit of Second Amendment : |
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KansasVoter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jan-11-11 06:51 PM Response to Reply #89 |
103. LOL, you really think you need to protect yourself against the government? |
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Kennah (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jan-11-11 07:52 PM Response to Reply #103 |
106. You mean that you don't ... |
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KansasVoter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jan-11-11 07:55 PM Response to Reply #106 |
107. No, I don't. But I am not looking as hard as others. And not wanting it to happen. |
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Kennah (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jan-11-11 07:59 PM Response to Reply #107 |
108. I too am not wanting it to happen; however ... |
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Francis Marion (188 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Jan-12-11 01:49 AM Response to Reply #108 |
112. We're fairly mild by world standards |
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Francis Marion (188 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Jan-12-11 01:29 AM Response to Reply #103 |
111. If you have an ear to hear...(or a word to the wise is probably not sufficient...) |
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one-eyed fat man (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jan-11-11 07:29 PM Response to Original message |
105. You can easily test a couple things |
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DU AdBot (1000+ posts) | Thu Oct 17th 2024, 09:49 PM Response to Original message |
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