DU Dungeon Myth Busters.

[beevul]

Plastic Guns that cannot be detected with a metal detector.

Myth or reality?




Please discuss facts relivant to whether the guns in question do in fact exist.



Edited to add part 2.

Cop killer bullets.


Myth or reality?

Please discuss facts relivant to whether the bullets in question do in fact exist.

[Withergyld]

1. They do exist...

in Hollywood movies.

[Superfly]

2. Reality....

although this gun only shoots water...

[alwynsw]

27. WB, Mr. Honeymooner

As you can see, the Glock has raised it's pretty little, containing over a pound of steel, head again.

We have a ton of those non-existent plastic guns around the house. How many squirt guns do you think a teacger who retired in 2002 confiscated during her career?

[demsrule4life]

3. Myth

There are no all plastic guns and it has been proven (in the senate office building) that x-ray machines will detect all plastic toy guns.

[Township75]

4. I don't believe they do, and at least with current technology...

I don't think plastic could be used for a gun that is supposed to last a while. Plastics shrink and warp with time, obviously the barrell alone on the gun can't tolerate this, much less other parts. Furthermore, the shock and heat produced from firing rounds, overtime would damage the polymer.

Additionally, the plastic barrel would likely degrade quickly when using metal rounds, because the metal is harder than the plastic, so it is the plastic that wears.

The few polymers that might stand a chance by offering high strength, chemical and heat resistance are so much more expensive than stainless steel that manufacturers likely wouldn't produce it.

Perhaps, a one time shot firearm could be made from plastic.

I believe congress outlawed guns made entirely of plastic long ago.

[beevul]

5. Added "cop killer bullets" to the original topic . . N/T

[Superfly]

6. Reality...

ANY bullet fits that description.

[CO Liberal]

8. However...

...are there bullets out there specially designed to pierce bullet-proof vests?

(I don't know - looking for info.)

[Superfly]

9. Yes

although they are not available to the public and are known as Armor Piercing.

That being said, my 30-06 hunting rifle with a normal hunting round can defeat most body armor.

[TyroneStryker]

12. Not in handgun calibers though.

I know they exist in rifle calibers. I saw one in .50 BMG

[Columbia]

16. I think even those rounds

Were designed to pierce windshields and car doors and not specifically "bullet-proof" vests.

[Superfly]

17. a 9mm Parabellum

can pierce a car door with ease.

I saw a demonstration where a dummy was placed behind a car door. There was adequate penetration to kill down to around the 25 caliber range.

[Township75]

11. I am pretty sure they do not exist...

in the late 80's there was a man who claimed he created a bullet that could penentrate bullet proof vests. However, he never put it on the market.

Secondly, whether a bullet can penetrate a vest depends on the vest. Vests are rated by what they should be able to stop...for example, there are vests designed only to stop 9mm and less powerful, and there are vests that are designed to stop the almight .44 and less powerful.

[Columbia]

13. Not specially designed

But rifle rounds will pierce most commercial bullet-proof vests in the absence of a ceramic plate. That is just due to their inherent high velocity (super-sonic) versus the low velocity (sub-sonic) of handgun rounds.

However, I'm sure one day hunting rifles will be called sniper rifles specially designed to pierce the bulletproof vests of cops... :freak:

[demsrule4life]

22. There are no bullet proof vests

Bullet resistant. You do pose a good question. I would say no there isn't. There are some pistol rounds that are made to defeat light Armour but those have never been legal to buy. Naturally a vest rated to stop most pistol rounds will not stop a rifle round. Some rounds are harder to stop namely 9mm and 38 super full metal jacket rounds are harder to stop then 44 and 45 rounds. Why I have a good laugh when NJ bans cop killer hollow points even though it is much easier for a vest to defeat a hollow point then it is to stop the full metal jackets that are legal in NJ. The big problem us gun nuts have about cop killer bullet laws is the law can be made to ban all bullets that can defeat a vest, and all rifle rounds will defeat the typical vest a police officer wears unless the police officer wants the added weight of ceramic plates that will help defeat rifle rounds. And since I'm not writing this as well as I would like I will quit now.

[alwynsw]

28. Yes. Not only bullet RESISTANT vests, but light armour as well.

They were/are produced for the military and paramilitary (law enforcement) agencies only. They are not now, nor have they ever been offered for sale to the general public by the manufacturers and/or distributors.

The black market angle is a horse of another color. Virtually anything produced in the world is available on the black market for the right amount of cash.

To back up Superfly's post. The is no bullet resistant vest currently being made that can stop a 30.06 fmj (full metal jacket).

[solinvictus]

59. Specially designed, no, but....

A 7.62X 25 Tokarev (.30 Mauser) is a 108 year old cartridge that will pierce threat level 2 vests. Obviously, because of the age, it wasn't DESIGNED to do so, but the bullet's velocity and muzzle energy will sometimes defeat body armor. About any spitzer rifle round will defeat standard body armor.

[TyroneStryker]

7. All plastic guns don't exist.

A plastic barrel could not contain the pressure firing causes.

Cop-killer bullets?

Don't exist. There is no 9mm round that can reliably penetrate a decent vest.

[Wcross]

50. Don't forget the bullets!

If you load rounds in your imaginary plastic pistol, it will defeat the purpose, wouldn't it? I guess they will have to ban the imaginary plastic bullets before we can all feel safe huh?

[beevul]

10. It would be interesting to hear...

from any folks in law enforcement to see what thier take on "cop killer" bullets. I would think they would be well in the know of such things.

[Township75]

14. beevul....

why do you ALWAYS root for Godzilla

[beevul]

21. Because...

hes the Anti-Barney.:evilgrin:

[Township75]

31. But what if...

Godzilla were on the side of The Brady Campaign...or what if Godzilla were marching with the Massive Moron Marchers...then what?

[demsrule4life]

33. Have to load up my .50 cal Brady special

with uranium tipped hollow points.

[alwynsw]

34. Nah. Those scenarios sound more like Mothra.

[beevul]

49. RUH ROH!

"But what if ...Godzilla were on the side of The Brady Campaign...or what if Godzilla were marching with the Massive Moron Marchers"

Run for your LIFE!!!

Though it might be a difficult debate as to whos breath is worse. Godzilla or Sara B. His vocalizations definitely make more sense than hers though.

Thankfully, I seriously doubt he would. Hes never been afraid of guns, howitzers, tanks, the "flying forever" .223 round, or even the dreaded.50 caliber anti-godzilla Barret.

Edited to correct title spelling.

[Township75]

51. NIIIIIIIIIICCCCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"Though it might be a difficult debate as to whos breath is worse. Godzilla or Sara B. His vocalizations definitely make more sense than hers though."

Very funny and very true!

Let me pose a new scenario for you...what if Barney were to come out on the RKBA side...then what about Barney?

[beevul]

52. Oh dear...

I guess I could live with that. Though, the opposition would have a field day with it.

"Foul fowl teams up with purple menace to pimp guns"

Or

Purple pantload promotes promiscuous gun laws"

on edit :or


Purple pantload promotes promiscuous peashooter proliferation.

[Township75]

54. orrrr....

Purple pantload pimps AshKKKrofts NRA propaganda to racists nazis with gun fetish while crying a friggen river.

[beevul]

55. The Town

Cracking me up.

Purple pantload positively poisoning peoples perceptions, periodically producing perilous predictions partly promoting personal protection. Positively preposterous.


Beat that P :evilgrin:

[alwynsw]

60. My wife says, That's good!"

[Township75]

65. Ok, You win...

I salute your creativeness.

So do these "people" :D

[beevul]

66. Woot. A good laugh first thing in the morning.

No better way to start the day.:)

[alwynsw]

57. Which Barney?

I grew up with Barney Fife.

[MrSandman]

58. He is coool!

[beevul]

46. Seriously...

"Nature has a way sometimes of reminding Man of just how small he is. She occasionally throws up terrible offsprings of our pride and carelesness, to remind us of how puny we really are in the face of a tornado, an earthquake, or a Godzilla. The reckless ambitions of Man are often dwarfed by their dangerous consequences. For now, Godzilla -- that strangely innocent and tragic monster -- has gone to earth. Whether he returns or not, or is never again seen by human eyes, the things he has taught us remain." -Steve Martin (Ramond Burr)

I grew up in a scifi-nut family, watching the slapstick Inoshiro Honda directed Godzilla and his antics, and movies like "The Day the Earth Stood Still" and the original "War of the Worlds".

I grew to really enjoy the "special effects" if you can call them that, of the Japanese monster movies. I also did alot of reading about the theme behind godzilla, and the above eulogy at the end of "Godzilla 1985" puts it succinctly. "The reckless ambitions of Man are often dwarfed by their dangerous consequences." I believe theres alot of truth to that.

That and its fun to watch a guy in a rubber monster suit stomp around and destroy a cardboard city, or destroy martians or another monster.
Its kind of a family tradition to root for Godzilla.

Oops, I have said too much, now I might get labeled a "pro-death-ray" extremist.:evilgrin:

[demsrule4life]

48. I doubt that

death rays can be detected by x-ray machines. Time for another law.

[Columbia]

19. In my experience

Most law enforcement officers know far less about guns and gun related issues than the average gun enthusiast. Their experience is usually limited to their yearly qualification with their weapon and that's about it. SWAT types, however, obviously know quite a bit more.

Granted, this is from a mostly California perspective, so your mileage may vary.

[alwynsw]

29. It depends on the cops.

I had a great deal of traffic with them when I worked in corrections. we also shared the Kentucky State Police rangs as it was on the grounds of the Kentucky State Penitentiary.

The rural cops; sheriffs and their deputies, small town police, and State police stationed in rural counties knew a great deal more than the "city cops" because of their exposure to hunting and the ready avaiability of places to safely target practice.

With familiarity comes knowledge.

[DoNotRefill]

56. It depends on how you define "cop-killer" bullets....

technically, any bullet used to kill a cop would be a "cop killer bullet".

Of course, since a disturbing number of cops killed in the line of duty are killed with their own guns, I guess the biggest consumer of "cop killer bullets" are cops.

BTW, most agencies that issue vests isssue vest designed to stop the round used by that agency.

[HawkerHurricane]

15. Both myth...

While there are guns out there with very little metal in them, there is no plastic that can take the heat and pressure of a bullet firing (yet). So, the barrel and firing chamber at the least must be metal.

'Cop Killer' bullets is a buzz phrase for armor piercing ammunition, esp. teflon rounds. The bullets aren't designed to kill cops, thier designed to penetrate armor.

[MrSandman]

53. Teflon Rounds????

Teflon is used as lubricant to allow the bullet to slide through the barrel and has zero to do with penetration.

[DoNotRefill]

62. There were teflon rounds produced for a very short time...

but they did absolutely nothing to increase the penetration characteristics of the bullets. They were made to ease friction in the barrel, leading to longer service life for guns. They were marketed EXCLUSIVELY to Police Departments for use in police revolvers, which tended to not be replaced frequently.

[MrSandman]

64. Teflon or Teflon coated.

And as we agree, it has zero to to do with penetration. It does sound nasty though. Think of all those deadly Teflon skillets.

[HawkerHurricane]

67. I was going from memory...

from what the news stations in Los Angeles were talking about in the early 1980's. "Teflon coated cop killer bullets" was the cry...
And I did call it a myth, didn't I?

Any bullet can kill a cop, properly used. A little .22, fired at point blank range into the back of the skull will make a small hole then ricochet around the braincase... To call a given round a 'cop killer' is to use a buzzword.

Personally, if I were going to 'kill a cop', I'd shoot him in front of his home, when he wasn't expecting it... Why do it while he's in uniform, wearing a vest, carrying his own weapon, while he's alert? Why make things harder on myself?

It goes with plastic guns; a set of buzzwords designed to make people watch the news, not a real problem. "Much sound and fury, signafying nothing."

[slackmaster]

68. Google KTE bullets

They consisted of a sintered tungsten core with a non-discarding Teflon sabot. They were of very limited usefulness. IIRC one report said they were much more likely than standard bullets to bounce off of a car window or windshield unless they were fired at very close to a normal angle (i.e. perpendicular to the glass).

KTE bullets were very expensive and not sold on the retail market. They're not made any more even though police departments could legally use them. There's no market.

[HawkerHurricane]

70. Limited use weapon, limited market.

Only usable in a few circumstances, no wonder they aren't made any more.

[MrBenchley]

18. Dick Cheney voted for both

[Superfly]

20. Nevermind

....what's the use? :shrug:

[MrBenchley]

23. True....the RKBA crowd seems determined to be dishonest

and to try and justify this idiot Cheney's vote.

"The Undetectable Firearms Act (P. L. 100-649, 1988), also known as the "plastic gun" legislation, bans the manufacture, import, possession, and transfer of firearms not detectable by security devices. "

http://www.policyalmanac.org/crime/archive/crs_gun_control.shtml

[Columbia]

24. Next, let's ban light-sabers!

If it'll save just one Ewok, it will be worth it.

:grouphug:

[demsrule4life]

25. I don't think they have invented invisible guns yet

as long as a object is solid an xray machine will detect it. And plastic is solid though there are no all plastic guns.

[slackmaster]

26. We cannot allow an INVISIBLE GUN GAP!

[DonP]

32. You left out Jack D. Ripper!

... and his monologue on the pollution of our vital bodily fluids.

[alwynsw]

30. AHEM! We're discussing the existence of items.

We're not discussing anyone's vote in Congress or political position.

[MrBenchley]

35. Hahahahahahahahaha.....

Yeah, surrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrre.....

[demsrule4life]

36. It must be good

whatever you are smoking.

[Columbia]

44. I want some too

:crazy:

[alwynsw]

38. A small reminder:

Plastic Guns that cannot be detected with a metal detector.

Myth or reality?

Cop killer bullets.

Myth or reality?

Please discuss facts relivant to whether the guns in question do in fact exist.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=35466&mesg_id=35466&page=

For the life of me, I can't see any mention of people or political positions in the original post. Where will I find it?

Oops! Here it is!

MrBenchley (1000+ posts) Mon Jan-26-04 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
18. Dick Cheney voted for both

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=35466&mesg_id=35492&page=

edited to add credibility link

[MrBenchley]

40. edited to add credibility link

It may link but it didn't add a speck of credibility....

But it's hilarious to see how desperately the RKBA crowd can spin.

[alwynsw]

42. Only to note that the questions came from the original post

and that you got off topic when you brought politics into the thread.

To quote the song: Who's zoomin' who?

[MrBenchley]

45. Yeah, the RKBA crowd is zoomin' all right

[alwynsw]

47. Once again, the rogue comet zips off into space.

[RoeBear]

37. Who was the moron...

...who introduced a bill banning non-existant guns and bullets?

[demsrule4life]

39. I don't know

but I would bet it sure was a boring day in the halls of congress.

[MercutioATC]

41. Maybe he's related to the moron who had a non-existant abortion

procedure banned... (partial-birth)

[MrBenchley]

43. No, those were the sort of scumbags

who support this gun rights crap.


Don't see anybody in that photo who isn't pro-gun all the way....

[alwynsw]

61. Maybe you could do a DU pro RKBA lineup photo

and save us all the agony of viewing your "Dream Team".

[MrBenchley]

63. They're YOUR dream team--pro-gun all the way

Don't cry to me because you don't like your playmates. I'm happy with mine.

[RoeBear]

69. I'm uncomfortable with discussions...

...about cop-killer bullets and bullet resistant vests. It reminds criminals to take headshots.