McCarthy, Lautenberg seek to ban high-capacity ammo magazines

[KeepItReal]

Source: NBC/MSNBC

Sen. Frank Lautenberg, D-N.J., and Rep. Carolyn McCarthy, D-N.Y., with the backing of gun control groups, are drafting a bill that would ban the sale of high-capacity magazines such as the one that was used allegedly Saturday by Jared Lee Loughner, the man accused of murdering federal Judge John Roll and trying to assassinate Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, D-Ariz., according to two gun control activists working with McCarthy's staff.

Gun control proponents are hoping to move rapidly on the measure in the wake of reports that Loughner's access to high-capacity, 33-round magazines substantially increased the lethality of his attack, the activists said. An Arizona law enforcement official confirmed to NBC News on Monday that Loughner had actually gotten off at least 31 shots during the Saturday shooting, not the 20 that were first reported. He was emptying his first high-capacity magazine and was trying to reload with another high-capacity magazine (with another 30 rounds) when he was wrestled to the ground, the official said.
...

"The only reason to have 33 bullets loaded in a handgun is to kill a lot of people very quickly. These high-capacity clips simply should not be on the market," Lautenberg said. "Before 2004, these ammunition clips were banned, and they must be banned again. When the Senate returns to Washington, I will introduce legislation to prohibit this type of high-capacity clip."

Lautenberg was referring to an issue that has been highlighted in recent days by senior federal law enforcement officials: the manufacture of the kind of high-capacity magazines the suspect had with him at the Tucson shopping mall was barred under a federal assault weapons ban that was passed by Congress and signed by President Bill Clinton in 1994.


Read more: http://openchannel.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/01/10/5805421-mccarthy-lautenberg-seek-to-ban-high-capacity-ammo-magazines

[Ian David]

1. This will just make the crazies MORE CRAZY. n/t

[tridim]

3. It's obvious, and logical.

Crazies don't get to tell the rest of us what is legal.

[Name removed]

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[derby378]

11. Neither do McCarthy and Lautenberg

We have a Bill of Rights for that. :hi:

[fascisthunter]

22. that depends on how and who interprets the Bill of Rights

[derby378]

23. It's the old NARAL ad campaign: "Who Decides?"

And the answer remains the same: we will.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

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[eqfan592]

43. It's neither of those things.

And understanding that doesn't make somebody a "crazy."

[tridim]

67. Why?

What reason do you have for keeping 30 round magazines for handguns.

I know they're good for murdering lots of people, but I've yet to see a single rational reason.

[Atypical Liberal]

87. What maximum capacity would you choose?

What reason do you have for keeping 30 round magazines for handguns.

I know they're good for murdering lots of people, but I've yet to see a single rational reason.

My pistols are all limited to 10 rounds, but I own a carbine that can hold 15, and another rifle that can hold 30 or more.

I like large capacity magazines because when I go to the shooting range I can spend more time shooting and less time loading.

But for militia requirements I prefer a battle rifle that holds similar amounts of ammunition as appropriate for modern infantry forces.

[tridim]

91. I would choose zero.

But that's just my opinion.

[Atypical Liberal]

95. So now you understand why we won't budge an inch on high-capacity magazines.

I would choose zero. But that's just my opinion.

So now, hopefully, you will understand why pro-firearm folks won't budge an inch on high-capacity magazines, or anything else for that matter.

We know what the real, ultimate intent is.

Thanks for being honest about it, though.

[Name removed]

97. Deleted message

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[Atypical Liberal]

106. Addicted to machines.

I suppose I am. Just as I am addicted to the machinery that allows me freedom of speech. I enjoy computers, Wikileaks, and other instruments that enable the free expression of thoughts, ideas, and facts.

I also am a firm believer in having the tools for self-defense and defense against oppression. I'm sorry you think I'm a wacko because of that.

I understand that sometimes these tools are misused. But, as Thomas Jefferson once said, I'd rather have to deal with the problems of too much liberty than too little.

[GreenStormCloud]

94. We don't have to give you a reason.

You have to give a reason for outlawing something. Simply because one person misused an item is not a reason to make the item illegal for everybody. BTW - Did you know that a reload for an auto-loader takes less then one second? So carrying around two extra 10 round mags would add only two seconds to his string of fire.

[tridim]

96. Because they are made specifically for killing lots of people, very quickly.

That is a rational reason.

This weekend, when the mass muderer tried to reload, he was tackled and disarmed. Did you miss that little fact?

[X_Digger]

116. Really? I'm sure you can back that up..

Because they are made specifically for killing lots of people, very quickly.

Please, cite the evidence that leads you to this conclusion..

Do you have internal memos from Glock stating such?

Or was that just more bullshit?

[IamK]

129. 1 reason... I'm lazy and don't like to change magazines..

[DissedByBush]

53. "Crazies don't get to tell the rest of us what is legal"

They're trying to do it right now.

One's name is Lautenberg.

[tridim]

68. Can you tell me why they should be legal?

Just one logical and real reason.

[DissedByBush]

109. Can you tell me why a restriction would be legal?

It is a right. Restrictions on basic rights should have to pass strict scrutiny.

Then you're blaming the tool. There are probably millions of magazines over ten rounds in this country.

That extra capacity is very, very rarely leveraged for a crime.

So you would ban the vast majority of law-abiding use for what a few bad people do.

Apply that logic to anything else, knives, cars, alcohol, marijuana, blogs, etc., and we need to ban it because a few bad people do bad things.

[movonne]

5. Nothing makes them madder or crazier that talk of taking their

guns away..it is like taking their jewels away from them...who has the biggist,and fastest ones..

[Tejas]

64. Bill of Rights ring a bell? Bought a knife in England lately?

Thank you for playing.

[xchrom]

6. It's a matter of small degrees at this point - and that includes 'democrats' at this point.

And yes - I'm talking about 2nd ammendment dems.

[CreekDog]

25. um, that's a reason *not* to ban them?

:wtf:

[Tejas]

62. I saw what you did there.

;)

Seems that not only do anti-2nd Amendment types not care about the logistics of gun bans, but the results elude them too. Their result of only outlaws having guns would be compounded by outlaws with mental problems having guns.

[FLAprogressive]

2. The Republicans in the Brady Bunch never let a tragedy go to waste....

[Name removed]

4. Deleted sub-thread

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[doc03]

7. Here we go blame the gun. I have a .40 cal. semi auto pistol

it carries one round in the chamber and has a 16 shot magazine. So I could shoot 17 rounds and in two seconds I can put another loaded magazine in the gun and fire a total of 33 rounds.

on edit: Just how many rounds should a gun be able to fire 1, 3 ,6 10, ?

[villager]

14. Here we go. Blame the capacity to kill large numbers of people in a short period of time

...for killing large numbers of people in short periods of time.

[defendandprotect]

20. +10000%

[sofa king]

37. Ever heard of running amok?

Malayans averaged around 10 victims per killing spree for hundreds of years, almost all of it done without firearms.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Running_amok

And in just two months last year, six Chinese knife-wielders killed 17 people and wounded 50 others.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/05/19/world/main6498069.shtml

So say you do ban these guns and clips (again). Nothing is accomplished toward spotting the circumstances which lead to these attacks. No insight is gained into the people who commit them. A possible warning path (the acquisition of such weapons and accessories) is denied to those who would hope to spot such people before they can act. Legislative time and effort is wasted. Not one attack is averted.

Even if every gun disappeared from the face of the earth today, someone would walk into a crowd of people and knife a dozen people tonight. And knives don't need reloading, either.

The capacity is in the person, not the weapon.

[villager]

40. "Amok" is so much easier with the right tools.

Given that the gunman was tackled after spraying bullets, imagine how much less the carnage would be if he'd run up brandishing only a knife.

And it's nice to see that "false equivalencies" aren't just the province of a desperate GOP.

[friendly_iconoclast]

48. How about a truck full of DIY explosives? Worked a treat in Oklahoma City...

I guess we should have banned diesel fuel, fertilizer, and nitromethane because of that, right?

[defendandprotect]

84. If we knew the truth about OK, I doubt it would be about a fertilizer bomb --

McVeign looks like another patsy here in the long march to create "terrorism" in

America by corrupted forces within government -- not unlike 9/11.

[friendly_iconoclast]

110. True or not, those ingedients can be used by some evil person to make a large bomb.

Hell, most people have the means of creating a chemical weapon and/or a firebomb lying around their homes. Fortunately, most people

are not deranged or flat out evil so these ingredients are rarely (intentionally) used for such purposes.


Should we ban them "just in case"?


If you (or any else) can think of some way to some way to actually prevent determined mass murderers by banning certain

implements, I'd like to hear how that is supposed to work.

[defendandprotect]

121. ONLY with a lot of help from corrupt government agents --

[sofa king]

49. I think you have a point there.

The original hi-cap magazines for the Glock 17 were used by George Hennard in 1991 to kill 24 and wound a further 20 more. That record was not surpassed until 2007, when Seung-Hui Cho used a Glock 19 to murder 32 people. In the meantime the federal ban on high capacity magazines came and went, and nowhere near that many people were killed at any one time while those magazines were banned.

But again, banning the magazines didn't stop the incidents. It didn't stop those bastards at Columbine, or a dozen other would-be mass murderers. All it did was temporarily reduce the butcher's bill each time it happened. My concern is that another passage of such a law will actually wind up helping us to tolerate such incidents, rather than recognizing running amok as a behavior pattern which can be spotted and averted.

[villager]

51. How on earth would making such events less likely inure us to them?

:shrug:

[one-eyed fat man]

57. Julio González

A jilted lover carrying a grudge and a dollar's worth of gas torched a club
and killed 87 people with 2 matches. No shooter has come close.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2010/03/25/2010-03-25_jealous_exboyfriends_fury_killed_87_in_happy_land_fire_20_years_ago.html#ixzz1AhbtxLBi

At Columbine the killers walked around shooting for an hour before any police entered the building.

At Virginia Tech, Cho Had only half an hour to spread carnage while the campus police secured the perimeter awaiting the arrival of the SWAT team.

So obviously the thing to do is get mad at the THINGS that crazy people use to do crazy things.

That seems pretty crazy in and of itself.

Oh, and the amazingly "crystal clear clairvoyance" of hindsight how it was so obvious the lunatic was so unhinged nobody noticed until the committed their supreme act of lunacy then comes the endless litany of things in the lunatics past that so obviously predicted thier fate that "somebody" should have noticed.

[beevul]

58. How?

How did it temporarily reduce the butcher's bill each time it happened"

Since the ban did not effect availability.

How?

"That record was not surpassed until 2007, when Seung-Hui Cho used a Glock 19 to murder 32 people."

He actually had 2 guns, and standard capacity mags.

[Euromutt]

65. Let's examine another incident: the "Akihabara massacre"

The Akihabara shopping district of Tokyo, June 8th 2008 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akihabara_massacre). A guy drives a rented two-ton Isuzu truck into a crowd of shoppers, then jumps out and lays about him with a dagger. Total casualties: 7 dead, 10 wounded. Fairly comparable to the number of casualties in Tucson.

Given that the gunman was tackled after spraying bullets, imagine how much less the carnage would be if he'd run up brandishing only a knife.

Loughner was tackled while trying to reload, during which time he was unable to shoot. Bladed and bludgeoning weapons don't need to be reloaded, so there would be no such opening.

[parkia00]

60. And if?

The amok had a semi-auto hand gun with a fully loaded 30 clip magazine rather than a machete or other sharp instrument, do you think it would be better, or worse? Do you think there would be less victims or more victims?

[Tejas]

63. So, collateral damage is fine?

Magazine capacity limits, length of knife limits, baseball bat weight limits will never limit the capacity of anyone committed to their mission.

How are those "gun free" zones working out for you?

[parkia00]

69. Logic... try it.

Any insane person can arm themselves. Baseball bat, knife, ice pick, you name it. Which would you prefer? If you are caught in a public place with an insane person who is armed and looking to do damage; would you prefer that insane person be armed with an ice pick, a dagger, a long hunting knife, a semi auto with standard 8 clip magazine, a semi auto with an extended 30 clip magazine or a full auto assault rifle? Take your pick!

And those gun free zone are working VERY FINE FOR ME. Thank you very much! No gun related issues or crimes last year at all. Some hunting accidents though.

[one-eyed fat man]

71. Yep, the killer had nothing to do with it.

A dollars worth of Amoco regular and two matches, 87 incinerated alive.



Bowling with Buicks


Nope, mass killers have anything but a fertile imagination.



Machete mischief.

[Name removed]

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[Xenotime]

126. Ha! 1 - if single shot muskets were good enough for our fore fathers...

They should be good enough for you.

[X_Digger]

127. Ha! if hand crank printing presses and quill pens were good enough for our fore fathers.. n/t

[GSLevel9]

8. then I better go cash out my IRA to buy a couple hundred of them.

:sarcasm:

[NutmegYankee]

9. Cool. I can buy them up and make a nice profit!

Just like back in the late 90s. Every unstable wackjob gun-toting I knew had these mags, but they paid $$$ for them.

On Edit - Since it just wasn't obvious enough: :sarcasm:

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[doc03]

16. The price of those high capacity magazines has probably

doubled today. Gun dealers are going to make a fortune over the next several months selling guns, ammo and gun accessories.

[tridim]

17. That's sick.

[doc03]

18. It's true, it took the gun and ammo manufacturers a year to

catch up with the demand after the last election. Talk of bringing back the AWB or other firearms restrictions will just sell more guns.

[oldhippydude]

24. yep

thats true... a lot of us who consider ourselves liberals, enjoy target shooting and gun sports from time to time.. the ammunition supply is just now catching up to the demand... even during the campaign the rhetoric of the right was "hes coming for your guns" you don't have to be a redneck NRA freak, to own and respect a firearm

[AtheistCrusader]

50. That's life.

That's also exactly how futile this sort of legislation is.

It also fans the flames of the 'they comin' for our guns!' clowns.

[lawodevolution]

54. I bought a few today, some places are already out of stock on high cap mags

[tridim]

73. Why did you buy them? What are you going to use them for?

[friendly_iconoclast]

111. Nunahyabidness (or mine, for that matter). Funny how that works in a free country, isn't it?

People do legal things without explaining why to some 'authority' figure. Perhaps you should report him to the Department of

Precrime...

[IamK]

130. And this will disproportionately impact.....

The poor, the unemployed, lower income, single moms and the like first.... This is the group we progressives seek to bring justice to....
All incomes should have access to high capacity magazines and not just the rich. We can make a difference...

[NutmegYankee]

21. Since you totally fucking missed the point

I'll lay out the icon;

:sarcasm:

[tridim]

26. Nothing about your post screamed sarcasm. Sorry.

[Hoyt]

74. Possession of these things should be prima facie evidence one is not stable enough to own a gun.

Subject of course to appeal and a trial.

[defendandprotect]

85. Exactly ... also elvidence that gun industry will sell anything for a buck --

and right wingers will buy anything -- no matter how destructive it may be!!

[one-eyed fat man]

107. Lacquer thinner, hair bleach, concrete cleaning solution.

Makes a pretty good detonator. Add a little Scott's Turf builder and some diesel fuel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zE0f5IsxZJQ&feature=related

The Army thought me how to make this stuff (and a bunch of other fun stuff) almost 50 years ago. We did classroom work and then to the demolition range where we actually set off the the explosives we made from under the kitchen sink.

I bet I ain't forgot how......

I'd wager you never had sex with a Great Dane, but you likely could figure it out. What keeps you from it? You DO know, that as sick as and repulsive as that notion is, someplace, somewhere, someone, is doing EXACTLY that, laws be damned, like as not, filming it too!

The problem is some folks not only have the knowledge, they also don't have the inhibitions. So they buy/sell contraband, steal, rape, even murder people all because they want to and don't really care what you, society, or the law say.

Some of the worst ones even hear voices in their head telling them to do it, think they are on a noble mission or doing God's/Allah's/ {Deity of your choice)'s work. Quaint notions of right and wrong have no meaning for them as the easily rationalize the deaths of innocents for their cause.

You really think any law, ban, or measure you get will stop the determined?

[friendly_iconoclast]

112. You know, you *could* do a better job of hiding that authoritarian streak.

To me, you're just another zampolit, wanting to decide what others are allowed to do.

[Pancho Sanza]

124. That is one of the most astounding comments I have ever heard

and I've heard some doozies.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

12. Prolly not going to pass. Rhetoric being used is false

[defendandprotect]

19. Two sane people in Congress ... where are the rest of them?

[spin]

55. Insanity is defined as doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results ...

The AWB was a dismal failure.

1) Instead of restricting the sale of "assault weapons" it turned them from curios into extreme popular and common firearms.

2) High capacity magazines were always available. A date was set to stop the manufacture of such magazines and the manufacturers went into 24/7 production and pumped out an enormous amount of these magazines before the date. They then sold them for a exorbitant price during the ban. They sold like hot cakes.

All the shooters I knew just had to have at least one "assault weapon" and three or four high capacity magazines to feed it.

Before the ban they had little or no interest in such weapons.

To top that off, it cost the Democratic Party dearly in many close elections.

If we push for another ban, I predict a landslide for Republicans in 2012.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

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[Imajika]

29. Oh God please Democrats....

...DON'T DO IT.

Gun Control is a complete loser of an issue. The public hates it, this won't pass, and after years of finally divorcing ourselves from the gun grabbers there would be nothing worse than allowing the public to believe Democrats are back beating the Gun Control drums.

The crime rate has been dropping for years now right along side a general relaxation in gun laws nationwide.

The appropriate response to this assassination attempt is likely to be a focus on mental health issues, not high capacity magazines. Is mental health help in the recently passed healthcare law? Can we add to the healthcare benefits and increase mental health assistance? This could be a debate about getting people help and how to direct it to them. Wasting time on Gun Control is just stupid.

[RamboLiberal]

31. +1

[eqfan592]

44. MAJOR +1

Seriously, we need MORE of this sort of sanity on these forums!!

[RamboLiberal]

30. Republican controlled house & several Blue Dogs

Bill has no chance in hell of passing.

And these 30+ round mags have been used in very few mass shootings and they have been around for a couple of decades.

Dems shouldn't knee-jerk this isssue.

And as I said in another post - does nothing to stop mass killers. Next one will just bring multiple guns.

[applegrove]

32. YES!

:bounce::bounce::bounce: :bounce::bounce::bounce:

[Gregorian]

33. Always the symptoms. Why do they never look at the causes.

Idiots. The drug war was the same thing. And look how that worked.

It's the same with terrorism. Just stop bombing the Middle East. But no, you have to do everything but that.

What goons.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

34. It is often the child's mind which seeks to know the what but never the why.

[lawodevolution]

35. Just bought some more high cap mags

if they fail to pass the bill the only thing they will have accomplished is mass proliferation of high cap mags.

[X_Digger]

38. Ahh Frank and Carolyn.. never pass up an opportunity to stomp in a blood puddle.

Stay classy, you two.

[bossy22]

39. this is going to be DOA

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

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[Lurks Often]

42. McCarthy, Lautenberg seek to give control of Congress back to the Republicans nt

[friendly_iconoclast]

47. +1. Couldn't have put it better myself. n/t

[defendandprotect]

82. Rather, they need to give the public what it wants ... real gun control - !!

Otherwise, we will see the increasing aggression of the right wing acted out

with guns and bullets --

Democracy isn't based on violence -- not on guns and bullets -- but on debate and

discussion --

You can support guns and violence -- or democracy -- the choice is yours.

You can't have both.

[friendly_iconoclast]

114. Shouldn't that read "what *I* think the public wants."?

Otherwise, we will see the increasing aggression of the right wing acted out with guns and bullets --

What gun control law do you think will stop those bent on a program of terror and assasination?

Cold-blooded killers will not scruple to obey laws, and to believe so is worse than useless.

[defendandprotect]

122. The public wants gun control ....so do the police ....

as YOU well know --

The only people I see "bent on a program of terror and assassination" are right

wing nuts with guns.

Your view of the world is based on FEAR -- but what's new?

That's what the GOP/NRA needs to sell guns --

[friendly_iconoclast]

128. No, I don't 'know' that-and neither do you. You *believe* they do

And if I'm as fearful as you say. then why don't I already own a gun? I have no legal impediment to doing so, guns aren't

that expensive, and even here in gun-control friendly Massachusetts one can buy rifles, shotguns, and handguns.

[Pancho Sanza]

125. And your "solution" is to make sure only the RW and goblins are armed?

Wow.

[Lurks Often]

132. Seems that nothing supports your view point

The 1994 elections turned control back over to the Republicans mostly due to the AWB ban.

Crime continues to drop despite the increase in shall carry legislation across the country.

Since states like Vermont, with no gun control laws of any sort have a remarkably low crime rate, while cities that have the legislation you support seem to have some of the highest crime rates in the country.

You won't mind if I ignore your posts as the emotional rantings of a person has a phobia about an inanimate object, is unable to cite any reputable sources to support his position, responds with posts that have zero useful content and would very much like to force his viewpoints on others.

[Jenoch]

45. Huh?

"Lautenberg said. "Before 2004, these ammunition clips were banned, and they must be banned again..."

Shouldn't he get he faces correct before issuing quotes? High capacity magazines (M1 Garand uses a clip) weren't banned. The sakecof newly manufactured magazines were banned. I suppose we shouldn' give them any ideas about actually banning them. If the ban is brought back there will be a run on these magazines and more of them will be available to the general public than there are in private hands now.

[aikoaiko]

46. McCarthy and Lautenberg can't help themselves --

Their bill won't pass and it will probably lead to more Republican gains.

[kudzu22]

52. If you want to ensure that Obama is a one-term president

have him sign this bill into law.

[spin]

56. If this bill is pushed by Democrats expect both houses and the Presidency ...

to move into Republican hands in 2012.

All for a law which would accomplishes nothing.

:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

[RSillsbee]

59. ANd a law that they will repeal

on January 21 2012

[tridim]

70. And with that, the RW terrorists won.

[Euromutt]

76. Only if the Democrats hand them victory (n/t)

[tridim]

78. Or Democrats give up on our values and give in to the party of nuts.

As I just read on freaking DU.

[GreenStormCloud]

100. 258 Members of the House have an NRA "A" rating.

258 out of 435, well more than half. The NRA owns the House. Such a bill will see the floor of the house.

[krispos42]

61. So now, like "assault weapons", people that ordinarily wouldn't have even looked at one..

...will now purchase several of them, just to piss off the gun-control forces and maybe make a nice profit in a few years.

:eyes:

[lawodevolution]

66. this is true, I've been looking at websites that sell hi-cap magazines and

many have gone out of stock in the last 1 or 2 days. The only thing these two are going to accomplish in the end is massive proliferation of high cap magazines. The ones I normally buy are suddenly very hard to find.

[tridim]

72. Why do you "normally buy" high-cap magazines?

I don't want to hear "because you can", I'd like an actual reason. Why do you need them? What do you do with them?

I've been asking this question for days, and have yet to recieve any answers.

[Euromutt]

75. It's not that you haven't received answers, it's that you're unwilling to acknowledge them

If we're talking magazines that are obviously longer than the magazine well of the weapon into which they're designed to fit, one possible application is in a "nightstand gun," to be used to confront/hold off nocturnal intruders, when you're in your jammies or dressing gown at best, and don't have pockets well suited to holding spare mags, or allowing you to pull them out. In such a situation, it's not a bad idea to have as much ammunition as possible already attached to your weapon (along with a light), so that you have everything you need to operate your firearm and keep it operating in one hand, while the other one holds the phone with which you're calling 911.

If by "high-cap" you mean any amount over 10 rounds, even when the weapon is designed to hold more than ten within its grip, well, why don't you ask the cops? After all, the 1994 AWB created an exemption on the 10-round limit for military and law enforcement, so presumably they had a legitimate need for having more than ten rounds in the mag. Whatever that reason is, I bet you can apply it to private citizens engaged in self-defense as well.

[tridim]

77. You don't need 30 rounds for your nightstand gun.

That's a bullshit answer.

Why do you really want one? Or as others have mentioned, many?

[X_Digger]

79. Now you're the arbiter of 'need'?

Did you get confirmation from the Senate as the Secretary of Need?

[tridim]

80. I formulate my own opinions.

You claim the need, defend it. Give me a real reason.

[X_Digger]

88. You've been given various folks reasons, but you've dismissed them.

Just like you dismiss our opinions, I'm dismissing yours.

[tridim]

90. I've been told it's inconvenient to change magazines at target practice.

It's a BULLSHIT reason.

Fuck your inconvenience, lots of people are dying because of it.

[X_Digger]

92. How many are dying because of it? Is that just another opinion?

What percentage of murders involve more than ten rounds? How many of these magazines have been used in crime?

Inquiring minds want to know.

[tridim]

93. Six, just this Saturday Mr. inquiring mind

All because gun lovers are apparently too lazy to change magazines after 10 shots when shooting beer cans at the gun range.

[X_Digger]

108. And six murders are enough to ban something?

In 2009, there were 6 people murdered with poison, 1,825 killed with knives..

You going after poison and knives, too? I mean, if 6 murders is enough to call for a ban, wouldn't that be logical?

[one-eyed fat man]

119. How about this?

Are you going to ban instant cold packs too?

[spin]

99. Your statement makes little sense ...

Most people can swap a magazine in two seconds, with practice in one second or less. Standard magazines work more reliably and cause better balance of the weapon in the hand, therefore helping the shooter place his shots with more accuracy.

[tridim]

101. Then the "target practice" excuse is even more insane.

Thanks for clarifying that.

There are no rational reasons to buy or sell large magazines. The only reason is mass death.

[spin]

118. Many shooters hate reloading ...

I'm one of the few that finds reloading is fun.

As I've explained in other posts, I have small hands so it's difficult for me to use a firearm with a double stack magazine as the grip is so fat that I have to cant the firearm in order for my finger to reach the trigger.

But I can shoot handguns like the Colt .45 auto with a single stack magazine. When I went out on the range I would load the Colt magazines which hold 7 or 8 rounds (depending on the magazine) with 5 rounds. Many people would ask me why I only put 5 in the magazine. I would reply, "To practice reloading. Reloading is part of shooting."

That's probably why I can swap out a magazine in a second or less. Often I would set the target up at 30 or 40 feet and activate the return switch on the control pad. I would grab the .45 off the table and shoot at the approaching target. When I ran dry, I would swap out to a new magazine and continue.

I would also only load 5 rounds in a revolver that could hold 6 or 7. That way a box of 50 would give me 10 reloads. Often I would fire 10 rounds at a target at 25 yards, bring it back and score it. That way I could compete against myself.

None of the shooters I have known have taken their hi-cap or extended magazines or assault weapons and committed a mass murder. Of course, none had serious mental issues that were untreated.

[spin]

98. People vary.

I have a five shot S&W snub nosed revolver in my nightstand. I realize that even with a speed loader in my pocket, I only have ten rounds. To me that's enough. But then my situation is entirely different.

I live in a large old home that was once a hotel with the my daughter and son in law and my two teenage grand sons. Occasionally we have people staying in our home as we tend to help people in need. I wouldn't call them boarders because often they can't pay. (My daughter is Wiccan and believes in the Rule of Three which says that when you do good or evil it will be returned to you three times over. (She should be due for some nice returns some day soon.)

This often leads to strangers in the home at odd hours. At one time a local police officer stayed with us for a year while he was looking for a house to buy. He worked different shifts and often people would stop by to visit or talk to him during the early morning hours.

So when I hear the odd thump or crash in the night and decide to play the foolish Wyatt Earp game and check out the house, I expect to find a harmless stranger. If I wander out of my bedroom with a large pistol with an extended magazine hanging out the bottom of the grip, I'll likely scare the hell out of the visitor. What I do, is to slip on a pair of shorts and drop my snub nosed revolver into my pocket. The visitor just sees a sleepy old man walk into the room he is at and has no idea that I have my hand in my pocket for a reason.

When I lived alone in Tampa and heard a noise, I would just grab a Colt .45 auto and a spare magazine and clear the house. I can change magazines in about one second.

I don't own any firearms with high capacity magazines. You might ask why. I have small hands. Large capacity magazines are often double stacked which increases the thickness of the grip on the gun. If the firearm doesn't fit your hand, shooting is more difficult. That's one reason I like smaller five shot revolvers or a Colt .45 auto with a single stack magazine. Also magazines often are the cause of a pistol malfunction and extended magazines are noted for causing such problems.

[Euromutt]

133. That's a bullshit dismissal

Asking questions when you're not actually interested in hearing the answers is what's known as JAQing off (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/JAQing_off).

[benEzra]

83. Thoughts...

I'll give this the benefit of the doubt and assume this is a serious question rather than a setup for a rhetorical game. So, thoughts, from someone who owns them:

With any gun, there is always a power-vs.-capacity-vs.-size/weight tradeoff.

For hunting guns, the preference is often for a few very powerful rounds, for extreme lethality in a light-enough-to-carry package. For long-range target guns (and police/military precision rifles), the compromise is similar--a few, powerful rounds for momentum and energy at extreme range. For most target shooting (and most target competition), the tradeoff goes the other way; more small-caliber rounds are preferred rather than fewer rounds of a more powerful caliber, because smaller rounds recoil less and you have better capacity.

Since recreational target shooting (practical, not benchrest) and defensive utility are the primary reasons for gun ownership in this country, the most popular civilian centerfire rifles (both target and defensive) are at the extreme low end of the power spectrum (.223 Remington, 7.62x39mm) and the higher end of the capacity spectrum. That's why 30-round rifles are pretty much the norm, regardless of manufacturer, because 30 rounds of .223 (the most popular caliber) is a nice compromise between capacity and size/weight.

A similar dynamic is in play for pistols, except pistols also have the added complications of concealability and holstering. 9mm has been popular for many decades because it is a decent compromise between power and capacity, but concealability and holster considerations limit capacity of a carry-able 9mm to 15-20, because 30-round 9mm magazines are unwieldy in a holster and very difficult to conceal. But if you keep a 9mm for HD use, I can see using a non-flush-fitting magazine because holstering and concealment are less important, and that is the main niche of the 30-round pistol magazines. I don't personally own one, though if this bill looks like it has legs, I will probably get one.

As far as the "why", for recreational shooting the answer should be pretty obvious (more time spent shooting and less hassle). For defensive use, non-LEO civilians use 15's and 30's for the same reason civilian police do, i.e. reserve capacity. If a typical defensive use involves eight rounds fired, you want much more than eight rounds in the gun, even if you are a LEO with spare mags on the belt and backup right behind you. For a non-LEO at home, the rounds in the gun are generally the only rounds you will have, since civilians don't sleep in duty belts or chest rigs, so capacity is more important.

I personally don't have much "need" for magazines over 30 rounds, but in the HD role 20's and 30's are preferable. For concealed carry, 15-20 is about the limit for concealment reasons.

The thing is, McCarthy et al aren't trying to ban over-30-round magazines; they are trying to ban over-10-round magazines, and the Brady Campaign has previously called for a 6-round limit. A 10-round limit turns the clock back prior to pre-1860's for repeating rifles and pre-1930's for 9mm pistols; no thanks.

FWIW, there are already probably 100 or 200 million >10-round magazines in private hands, and there are going to be a whole lot more sold in the next few months until it becomes obvious that the AWB zombie isn't going to be resurrected. Until then, expect another run on them a la 2008. And if the bill is passed (unlikely), expect a renaissance of more powerful handguns; if you are stuck with only 10 rounds in new-production handguns, they might as well be 10 powerful rounds, not 9mm.

[defendandprotect]

86. What level of fear put guns this much on anyone's mind ... go out and get some fresh air/sunshine!

[benEzra]

113. Oh, I do...

go out and get some fresh air/sunshine!

Oh, I do. :hi:

http://www.thehighroad.org/picture.php?albumid=6&pictureid=19

That's my GT project bike. Rescued it from a yard sale site, restored it, and I ride local trails with it. Cheaper than a wallyride and far better quality.

What level of fear put guns this much on anyone's mind...

I'd just as soon discuss something else, but you're the one who's obsessed with banning half the stuff in my gun safe. I learned my lesson in 1994 about not speaking up.

Tell you what, get the gun-control lobby to renounce the new-bans talk, and we'll talk bikes and kayaks instead.

[defendandprotect]

120. A nation wanting gun control is "obsessed" ..... but you're simply defending yourself

against the "obsessed."

I'd just as soon discuss something else, but you're the one who's obsessed with banning half the stuff in my gun safe. I learned my lesson in 1994 about not speaking up.

:rofl:

Close to Palin allegedly not understanding her role in these shootings!

[benEzra]

131. Darn, my pic didn't show. Here it is:

[tridim]

89. "Less hassle" for recreational shooting is a bullshit answer.

It's sub-bullshit. Stunning stuff here.

[PavePusher]

102. It's a very valid answer, whether you like it or... not. n/t

[spin]

103. Are you a recreational shooter?

At the indoor range I used to shoot at, I remember shooters who would load five to ten magazines in the lobby and then go out on the range. When they had fired all their rounds, they would return to the lobby and reload all their magazines once again. Many if not most of the regular shooters had hi-cap magazines (over 10 rounds). I never seen many extended magazines on the range I shot at. The reason people reloaded in the lounge area was it was air conditioned, the range was either hotter or colder than Hell depending on the season.

Shooters will be glad to answer your questions and from what I have read the answers that you have received have been honest and accurate. Why should we waste our time explaining things to you if you are so closed minded that you call the answers "sub-bullshit".

[tridim]

104. No, I hate guns.

I loved them as a kid though and fired many.

[spin]

117. As I said, if you have questions ...

the pro-RKBA posters in the Gungeon will be glad to help answer them. There is no reason to treat these honest and truthful answers in a insulting manner.

Plenty of shooters I have known use hi-cap magazines and complain when they reload them. They enjoy shooting, not reloading. Since I have smaller hands I find it difficult to shoot any firearm that holds a double stack magazine because of the fat grip. I have to cant the firearm in order for my finger to reach the trigger. This throws my accuracy off.

Banning the future manufacture of such magazines would accomplish little as there are millions already available. Confiscation would be impossible as magazines are easy to hide.

The Democratic Party keeps heading down the gun control path knowing full well that there are pitfalls on the route. If we make the same mistakes we have made in the past we will pay the same price once again in lost elections. The Republicans can easily win control of both houses and the Presidency if we shoot ourselves in the foot once again by pushing "feel good" gun control laws.

There are things we can do that may help to reduce such shootings in the future. The NICS background check will flag people with severe mental problems and stop dealer sales to these people. The problem is that many states, like Arizona, do not input names into the system in a timely fashion. We could concentrate on resolving this problem and accomplish FAR, FAR more than banning weapons or magazines.

All we ever do in this country is play stupid, useless, immature political games and never work together to find REAL solutions to the problems that we face.

[benEzra]

105. You asked what purported to be a serious question. I answered it, civilly and respectfully.

I'm sure you are capable of the same, if you really put your mind to it.

[friendly_iconoclast]

115. Their opinion of a valid use carries the same weight as yours.

And unless and until you get named Zampolit For Acceptable Firearms Use, so it will remain...

[ileus]

123. Great now I have to order a bunch of mags tonight.

I need a few more 30's and 20's for my pistol and S2k

Some 30's for my AR's and 30's for my mini....may order some AK mags just to be safe.

There goes my fun budget for the month. And to think I just bought a 308 last weekend, but it's a single shot. :)