GUNS IN THE NEWS--January 27, 2004

[MrBenchley]

As CO Liberal sez:
Please try to adhere to the following voluntary guidelines, in order that we can have an orderly discussion of gun-related news topics:
1 - Feel free to add any CURRENT stories to this thread by replying to this message. In order to be considered current, stories should have been originally posted on the Internet within the previous 24 hours, or provide follow-up to a story that was previously posted on the J/PS board. On Mondays (since many people do not log in to DU over the weekend), stories can be posted from Saturday, Sunday, or Monday.
2 - Both pro-gun and anti-gun stories, editorials, and press releases are welcome in this thread, as long as they're current. Please do not post links to items from a few years back that support your position.
3 - Bear in mind that any links to extremely right-wing sites (such as Newsmax, CNS, or the Washington Times) or intentionally pro-gun or pro-control sites (such as the NRA or the Brady Campaign) are not considered reliable sources by many DU-ers. If at all possible, try to find a link for your story from a more mainstream source, such as a general-circulation newspaper or magazine site. If you choose to use a slanted site, be prepared for any negative feedback you may receive.
4 - Do not change story titles. In other words, if the Oskosh Gazette's web site runs a story titled "Two Killed in Holdup", the title of your message should read "Two Killed in Holdup". Don't change it to "Gun Owner Kills Two People", or anything else that changes the meaning of the story.
5 - If it's not clear from the title where the story occurred, add the city, state, or country in parentheses after the title.
6 - Comment on a story by replying to that story.
7 - Please direct your comments to the story, rather than attacking the person posting the story or any person responding to the story. In accordance with DU rules, any messages that appear to be personal attacks against another DU-er or violations of any other DU rule will be reported to the moderators.
8 - If you object to these guidelines, do everyone else a favor and go to another thread.

[MrBenchley]

1. Golf Shooting Suspect Enters Plea (HI)

"An Oahu grand jury indicted Gonsalves on a first-degree murder charge, along with two counts of second-degree murder. Those charges stem from the Pali Golf Course shooting earlier this month, in which two men were killed and another critically wounded.
Gonsalves is one of three men charged in the case. Police earlier arrested Rodney Joseph Jr., 35, and Joseph's cousin, Ethan Motta, 34.
Romelius Corpuz, 40, died of a gunshot to the head. Lepo Taliese Utu, 44, died of multiple gunshots. Tino Sao, 42, remains hospitalized. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20040126/lo_kitv/1975881

[MrBenchley]

2. 2 People Rob Truck Driver (TX)

"Investigators said the robbers jumped in the driver's rig after he went inside the Phillips 66 gas station on the Eastex Freeway near Greens Road.
When the driver returned to his truck, he found the two robbers inside. The driver got into a struggle with them and was shot in the arm. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=320&ncid=320&e=1&u=/ibsys/20040127/lo_kprc/1976331

[beevul]

3. Epps Guns For Apocalypse

"Epps Guns For Apocalypse"


"Mike Epps told SCI FI Wire that he plays a good guy in the upcoming horror sequel movie Resident Evil: Apocalypse. "It's been so great, man," Epps said in an interview. "I get to hold some guns and shoot them without going to jail."

http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/art-main.html?2004-01/26/12.00.film

I found this doing my morning reading.:evilgrin:

[MrBenchley]

4. Man, 39, fatally shot his roommate, 17, police say (IN)

"A 17-year-old boy was fatally shot by his roommate late Sunday after a quarrel, police said.
Billy Spearman, of the 1000 block of North Rural Street, was shot as he sat in the passenger seat of a car that was pulling away from his home.
Spearman and his roommate, 39-year-old Joseph Hubbard, had argued in their home Sunday afternoon and then again at about 10 p.m. before Spearman decided to leave, said Lt. Paul Ciesielski, of the Indianapolis Police Department.
As the car was pulling away from the home, Hubbard chased it down and fired a handgun at Spearman, striking him, police said. The driver went to a nearby convenience store to phone 911."

http://www.indystar.com/articles/3/115185-3363-009.html

[MrBenchley]

5. Young killer stays locked up (PA)

Another Eddie Eagle poster boy....

"Joshua Geier, who shot his mother to death at their Lower Saucon Township home, is fascinated with guns, presents a risk to the community and therefore will remain in custody for at least another six months, a judge ruled Monday.
Geier, 13, was 12 on Oct. 7, 2002, when he killed Diane Geier with a powerful hunting rifle as she lay on the sofa, chatting with a friend on the telephone.
Geier was tried as a juvenile. Senior Judge James C. Hogan in Northampton County Court in July ruled Geier delinquent of involuntary manslaughter, the equivalent of being found guilty in adult court, and sent him to Weaversville Intensive Treatment Unit in East Allen Township."

http://www.mcall.com/news/local/all-b1_3geier-4jan27,0,7667679.story?coll=all-aol-yahoo-nws-hed

Good thing the NRA publishes a magazine for kids, eh?

[MrBenchley]

6. Gunman kills driver, wounds passenger (MD)

"An unidentified man was fatally shot and a woman was wounded as they drove on a snow-covered street in the city's Cherry Hill neighborhood yesterday morning, police said.
The man was driving a sport utility vehicle in the 2700 block of Giles Ave. when someone approached the truck about 11 a.m. and opened fire, police said. His female passenger was listed in critical condition at Maryland Shock Trauma Center yesterday evening, police said.
The killing pushed this month's homicide total to 17 and occurred just a few blocks from the apparently unrelated slaying of 42-year-old Shella Renee Christian and the serious wounding of her 6-year-old son in their rowhouse. "

http://www.sunspot.net/news/yahoo/bal-md.slay27jan27,0,1222147.story?coll=bal-newsaol-headlines

[mars_clover]

7. What is the point?

MrBenchley:

What is the point of all these posts that demonstrate the use of guns to commit crimes?

Clover

[slackmaster]

8. The purpose of these daily threads is to reduce the number of threads

Makes the board a lot easier to read.

[MrBenchley]

9. Obvious

[slackmaster]

11. That was a New Jersey way of saying "Welcome, mars_clover!"

:toast:

[mars_clover]

15. Thanks, slackmaster!

n/t

[mars_clover]

14. Pardon me...

But it's not obvious or I would not have asked.

Could you please explain your motive for posting examples of firearms used in crime?

Clover

[MrBenchley]

20. It's the price Americans pay

for letting the corrupt gun industry set public policy.

[slackmaster]

22. Seems like a reasonable deal to me

We let the CGI run the whole show, and people who want to re-post news items about criminal misuse of guns and gun accidents gt a place to spout off.

:freak:

[mars_clover]

33. Rather...

I see it as the price Americans pay for bearing the tools that ensure liberty.

It matters not to me if there is one shooting crime a day or a hundred. There is no relationship between gun crime and the need to preserve the tools with which to defend freedom.

As Ben Franklin said:

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin, Pennsylvania Assembly, November 11, 1755

Yes, so long as firearms or other weapons are infused in our society there will be those who will use them nefariously. This is no excuse to do away with the tool essential to our liberty.

I further take issue with the assertion that the gun industry is "corrupt", or that it, as an isolated entity, sets public policy. The gun industry simply manufactures guns related products for profit. There is nothing corrupt about that activity. And so far as they set public policy, they are only enabled to do this so long as they are supported by their customers who vote with their dollars. So while they certainly impact public policy they only do so by proxy of their supporters, which is as it should be, in my opinion. I, for example, am quite happy to support an industry, with my dollars, that can impact legislation with far greater impact than my pathetic votes can. I, and other likeminded individuals, speak through them to set public policy.

Clover

[MrBenchley]

40. Gee, sounds like

you weren't all that puzzled.....

"It matters not to me if there is one shooting crime a day or a hundred."
Yippee-fuckin-doo. Excuse those of us who actually want to live in a civilization.

For the record, Americans have always protected our freedom with our collective guns under rule of law. And it's worth noting that the biggest internal threat to our liberties since the days of the Palmer raids is coming from those in the pocket of the corrupt gun industry who are loudest in spouting this bogus "gun rights" horseshit. Like AshKKKroft, Cheney and this unelected drunk.

And as we saw from the "Second Amendment Slatterns" site the other day, the only complaint some gun nuts have with this crooked bunch is that they aren't racist and crazy enough to suit them..

[slackmaster]

44. Does MrBenchley still claim that rope was intended for Mexican immigrants?

It appears he still hasn't actually read the essay.

http://www.armedfemalesofamerica.com/pointblank/dare.htm

The Republicans may indeed pass this, through flattering the very communities they intend to devastate when the plan is fully exercised in full force. And they may indeed win an unbreakable stranglehold on the American government, secured by black box voting and McCain's campaign reform that silences incumbent's opposition. However, as John Fitzgerald Kennedy said, "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." In the end, all Congress may find they have gained is a nice hemp necktie, and the common saying of the land about politicians may become "GOT ROPE?".

And I'm sure the good honest decent people of Mexico will follow by also putting their ruling class in their proper place, namely, the gallows.

[mars_clover]

58. You are right.

you weren't all that puzzled.....

You're right - I wasn't. I was just giving you the benefit of the doubt before jumping right to the obvious conclusion that your goal is to use firearms crime as an excuse for getting rid of firearms. Obviously it was a wasted effort.

"Yippee-fuckin-doo. Excuse those of us who actually want to live in a civilization."

You mean "a utopia". You see, people like you live under the false delusion that if we could just somehow get rid of firearms, all the greed-induced violence of the world would somehow just fade away, like a bad dream. Face it, Mrbenchley - as long as man is ruled by greed and desire there will be men willing to use force to satisfy it. That force might be channeled through a gun, or a variety of other tools, but you will not have changed a thing by getting rid of the tool, even if it were possible.

If you accept that greed and desire are a permanent part of the human condition (and a few thousand years of recorded history don't give any indication that this is changing), then the question becomes this:

In your "civilization", do you want to be at the mercy of those with the ability to project power, or not?

"For the record, Americans have always protected our freedom with our collective guns under rule of law."

That little treason thing with the King of England must have slipped under your radar, I guess. And to complete your history lesson, do you know what the British were going for on their first raid at Concord? The local weapons. Why? To disarm the colonists before they could resist.

"And it's worth noting that the biggest internal threat to our liberties since the days of the Palmer raids is coming from those in the pocket of the corrupt gun industry who are loudest in spouting this bogus "gun rights" horseshit. Like AshKKKroft, Cheney and this unelected drunk.

While I agree about the folks you mention being the biggest internal threat to our liberties, I disagree that "gun rights" are "horseshit".

"And as we saw from the "Second Amendment Slatterns" site the other day, the only complaint some gun nuts have with this crooked bunch is that they aren't racist and crazy enough to suit them.."

So what? The "only complaint" some Democrats have with the Democratic party is that we aren't socialist/communist enough to suit them. Do we paint all Democrats with that brush? Of course not.

What does this have to do with refuting my assertion that firearms are necessary for the protection of liberty and that firearm-related crime has no bearing on that fact?

Clover

[TyroneStryker]

53. "the corrupt gun industry"

Please peddle that rubbish elsewhere.

[CO Liberal]

13. A Few Months Ago...

...people were complaining that the board was filling up with gun-related news stories. So I started posting "GUNS IN THE NEWS" threads each weekday to collect the stories in a single thread.

The guidelines that appear in the first message each day have evolved over time to try and bring a semblance of order to the discussions in these threads. While these are strictly voluntary, most people have been adhering to them and they seem to be working well.

The biggest point is that the stories in these threads need to be current. This prevents someone from dredging up stories from several years back that advance their personal agenda. The basic rule of thumb is that the story had to have been posted tot eh Internet within the previous 24 hours, or over the previous weekend on Monday's thread.

As you look through these threads, you will see both offensive and defensive used of guns, editorials, and press releases from all parts of the gun spectrum.

BTW - welcome to DU!!!! :hi:

Wayne
(CO Liberal)

[mars_clover]

17. Hi CO Liberal!

I kinda gathered that these were threads designed to combine all the "in the news threads".

What I'm curious about is why MrBenchley is so eager to share post after post that show examples of firearms in crime.

Clover

[CO Liberal]

18. If You Search The News Pages.....

...the overwhelming majority of stories you see out there are about guns used in crimes or to kill people. MrBenchley is simply linking to what he finds.

I do the same on days that I have a chance to search through Google. I'm too busy to do it this morning, however.

[slackmaster]

19. Blood and gore are more newsworthy than most defensive gun uses

Only in the newspaper of a very slow town are you likely to see a story about someone scaring off a prowler with a shotgun. Nobody really knows how often that kind of thing happens.

[CO Liberal]

23. I Have a Theory...

...that you don't see as many defensive gun use stories because there just aren't as many defensive gun uses as the pro-gunners want us to believe. It's just another fantasy, brought to us courtesy of John "Cook The Books" Lott.

[MrBenchley]

26. Amazing

that not even right wing pieces of shit like the Washington times and Faux Noise come up with them, isn't it?

And of course, we've yet to hear why a homeowner couldn't "defend" him or herself with a legal, registered and licensed gun.

[slackmaster]

29. Nice pair of red herrings

DGUs rarely get reported because usually no crime has occurred, nobody has been injured or killed, etc. They simply aren't newsworthy.

And of course, we've yet to hear why a homeowner couldn't "defend" him or herself with a legal, registered and licensed gun.

True, nor have we heard any reason why registering and licensing guns would be worth the cost either.

[mars_clover]

35. Interesting...

"And of course, we've yet to hear why a homeowner couldn't "defend" him or herself with a legal, registered and licensed gun."

Firstly, it happens all the time.

Secondly, the reason why registration and licensing are bad are, simply because A) it is an infringement upon the right to bear arms (if you have to get permission it is not a right) and B) registration makes confiscation a much simpler task.

Clover

[MrBenchley]

41. In other words

there's no reason except paranoia and dishonesty.

[mars_clover]

59. could you please elaborate?

"there's no reason except paranoia and dishonesty."

I'm afraid I'm not following your abrupt comment.

I can understand the "paranoia" part, and I suppose that is one way to put it. Just as you could say it is paranoia that drives me to have automobile and health insurance simply because realize I might be in a car accident or have a health problem.

If it's paranoia to realize that we may well find ourselves at the mercy of others to the point where armed resistance is all that is left to us, so be it. History can provide countless examples of people who may not have suffered nearly so much and for so long if they had had the foresight of a little "paranoia" before they felt the jackboot of tyranny upon their necks.

Given the debacle of the last election, combined with the coming black-box voting machines, the "Patriot Act", and the very real possibility that the ignorant masses, whipped up in a false patriotic fervor, will give Bush another four years to lead us even further down his road to hell, with no re-election pressures to even provide a pretense of decency, I think a little paranoia is called for.

The "dishonesty" portion of your statement I do not understand at all.

Clover

[slackmaster]

27. You're getting a little vague on us there, CO

As I've posted many times my thoughts and opinions are my own. I don't generally borrow other peoples' ideas wholesale.


...there just aren't as many defensive gun uses as the pro-gunners want us to believe....

Too many variables going at once here. A lot depends on which pro-gunners you are talking about, how you define a legitimate defensive gun use, etc. My view is that the number of defensive gun uses is greater than the number of criminal misuses. For me the real issue is keeping open as many options as possible in case I might some day have a real need to use a weapon defensively. Here in earthquake country (southern California) the possibility of a disruption in government services is very real, and I know from personal experience the police are rarely where you need them when you need them.

I strongly support the right of anyone NOT to have guns in their home.

[MrSandman]

38. I have had only two occasions which might qualify...

In the first, two drunks entered my home in wee hours of morning. Meeting me in the hallway, realizing I had a gun in hand, they quickly about-faced. I went to bed. No reports of break-in, apparently no reports by the drunks of assault with a deadly weapon.

In the second, a former patient with Borderline Personality D/O came in my house. When the gun was seen, she walked out and set on the porch--for 45 minutes waiting for the 911 response. The Trooper who responded had talked with my better 1/2 and he knew I was armed. He never mentioned it to me or in the arrest report.

At least two defensive uses unreported.

[MrBenchley]

21. You'll notice the RKBA crowd

never seems to fret that these folks are gettinng terrorized wounded and killed.....what upsets them is that the victims are not being ignored.

[slackmaster]

24. I think it's sad that people get terrorized, wounded, and killed

But I resent the implication that me exercising my right to keep and bear arms has any logical connection to the carnage; the simple-minded notion that the mayhem would somehow go away if I were to allow my own freedom to be curtailed in some unspecified manner.

[alwynsw]

32. You know my home defense experience

I'll hold on to my guns. I don't see the criminal element fading
away in my lifetime.

[CO Liberal]

34. And I Know Mine

I've lived in three states - NJ, NV, and CO. And in my 51 years on this planet (including the year I lived one town over from Newark, NJ) no one has EVER broken in to any place I've lived.

I feel that my current setup of a deadbolt lock on my steel front door, two dogs, cell phones, and an active Neighborhood Watch program keeps me safe enough, thank you.

[mars_clover]

37. Home defense...

I'm very glad that you have never had a break-in. Neither have I. Nor have I ever had to use a firearm in a defensive situation, like most firearms owners, I suspect.

Like hunting, sport shooting, and personal defense, home defense is a fine reason to keep a firearm. But it is not the reason to own a firearm, nor is it the reason it was put into the Constitution.

The sole reason it was put into the Constitution was to enable the citizens to shoot tyrants. This, over any other good reason to own firearms, is why the right to own them must be protected.

With black-box voting and elections decided by judges instead of voters, we may be closer than we think to the day when tyranny is upon us, the day when your vote no longer matters.

What will be your final bulwark against tyranny then?

Clover

[mars_clover]

36. Actually...

"never seems to fret that these folks are gettinng terrorized wounded and killed.....what upsets them is that the victims are not being ignored."

The only thing that upsets me concerning the right to bear arms issue is the possibility that I or my children might be disarmed and unable to fight tyranny when it is upon us again.

I don't think you will find many RKBA folks who enjoy the thought of firearm-related crime, or who don't feel for the victims. In fact, I suspect you will find that most RKBA folks are strongly in favor of severe punishment, even death, for the perpetrators of such crimes.

Clover

[MrBenchley]

42. Hahahahahaha.....

"I don't think you will find many RKBA folks who enjoy the thought of firearm-related crime, or who don't feel for the victims."
Hell, there was one here just yesterday...

"4. Florida gun owner laughs at some of the posts he see's here."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=35324&mesg_id=35331&page=

And most of the posts in these daily threads from the RKBA crowd are bitching about the thread's existence. Like I said, the RKBA crowd don't care that these people are terrorized, wounded and killed....what drives the RKBA crowd into a rage is that they aren't being terrorized, wounded and killed in silence.

"In fact, I suspect you will find that most RKBA folks are strongly in favor of severe punishment, even death, for the perpetrators of such crimes."
Yeah, gloating about punishing convicts seems to be how many get their jollies...when they're not busy posting crap frrom Newsmax, fighting any proposal that might cut down on the death toll, or slandering Democrats.

[slackmaster]

54. "might" causes me to question most gun control proposals

...fighting any proposal that might cut down on the death toll...

They all seem to be based on fear of what someone MIGHT do with a particular type of gun or a vague hope that making life harder for honest gun owners without addressing the problem of violent crime MIGHT make us all safer.

Before I approve of any pre-emptive restriction on my freedom I want to see the cost-benefit analysis.

[CO Liberal]

55. A Lot of Pro-Gun Positions Are Based On "Might" As Well

Someone MIGHT try to break into my home.

Someone MIGHT try to rape my wife.

A tyrant MIGHT try to take over the country.

Etc, etc, etc......

[slackmaster]

56. Yes, that is very true

Or I MIGHT feel like going to the range this weekend to do some target shooting.

I always default to individual liberty and personal choice when such doubts arise.

[mars_clover]

62. The difference is...

Someone MIGHT try to break into my home.

It has happened and can still happen. If it happens to you, do you want your only option to be to rely on someone else for protection?

Someone MIGHT try to rape my wife.

It has happened, and it can still happen. If it happens to your wife, do you want her only options to be hand-to-hand combat or to rely on someone else for protection?

A tyrant MIGHT try to take over the country.

It has happened, and it can still happen, even here. Anyone who believes that their currently-benign government will remain so forevermore is a poor student of history. I already believe that in the United States dollars go farther in influencing government than votes do. I do not think we are a lost cause yet, but I can certainly see the precipice we are approaching.

Ultimately, you are exactly right - firearms are needed, and the right to bear them was specifically listed in our Constitution, because of what might happen.

Clover

[mars_clover]

60. Dear Mr. Benchley...

"Like I said, the RKBA crowd don't care that these people are terrorized, wounded and killed....what drives the RKBA crowd into a rage is that they aren't being terrorized, wounded and killed in silence."

And like I said, painting way to wide a stripe with that brush. You can say it as many times as you like, but often repeating a falsehood does not make it true. Though there are undoubtably sociopaths that are insensitive to the pains of others in the RKBA crowd (as there likely are in any crowd), I expect that most RKBA folks deplore firearm crime just like everyone else. You obviously would like to paint us all as unfeeling maniacs but the fact is, you are wrong.

I read the above post you linked to, which had no text other than the subject that read: "Florida gun owner laughs at some of the posts he see's here." It's hard to say, since the author did not elaborate, but I suspect that he is laughing at the intent behind your posts, not the subject matter you are quoting. I know I am. Though I suppose "scoffing" would be a more applicable description. Since the author of the post was responding to your original "legal disclaimer" post, and no specific news article, we have no way of knowing exactly what he is referring to.

Yeah, gloating about punishing convicts seems to be how many get their jollies...when they're not busy posting crap frrom Newsmax, fighting any proposal that might cut down on the death toll, or slandering Democrats.

Well, MrBenchley, which is it? Either RKBA folks are indifferent to firearms crimes, or they aren't. And then you keep right on painting with those wide brushes. I don't post crap from Newsmax or slander Democrats, and the only proposals I fight are those that might cut down on liberty.

Clover

[MrBenchley]

64. Disgusting...

"I expect that most RKBA folks deplore firearm crime just like everyone else."
Yeah, it shows.....NOT.

we have no way of knowing exactly what he is referring to."
And I have little interest in trying to figure out what sort of person would laugh in the first place. Nor what sort of person would rush to defend such a specimen.

"Well, MrBenchley, which is it?"
It's exactly what I said. The RKBA crowd is perfectly happy to parrot the idiotic and hypocritical NRA propaganda line: "we need harsher punishment for criminals," a sentiment Charles Dickens would have seen through in an instant. Myself, I think it arises from the same twisted impulse that causes someone to announce that he laughs at the pain and suffering of others.

[mars_clover]

65. And you think I'm paranoid?

Whew. Keep painting with those wide, hateful brushes, dude.

""I expect that most RKBA folks deplore firearm crime just like everyone else."

"Yeah, it shows.....NOT."

Well, I've been trying to show you that I for one do not feel the way you are trying to paint all of us RKBA folks as feeling. Clearly the straw man you are espousing to be true is not.

"we have no way of knowing exactly what he is referring to."

And I have little interest in trying to figure out what sort of person would laugh in the first place. Nor what sort of person would rush to defend such a specimen."

Translation: You're right, Mars Clover, I can't say what he was laughing about, and thus using him as an example of RKBA folks not having any empathy for the victims of firearm-related crime was wrong. But, true to form, I'll make a character attack on you anyway, instead of using logic.

"It's exactly what I said. The RKBA crowd is perfectly happy to parrot the idiotic and hypocritical NRA propaganda line: "we need harsher punishment for criminals," a sentiment Charles Dickens would have seen through in an instant. Myself, I think it arises from the same twisted impulse that causes someone to announce that he laughs at the pain and suffering of others."

Myself, I think you are wrong. Nearly everyone I know favors harsh punishments for criminals, specifically those who engage in firearms-related violence, because, contrary to what you would have everyone believe, we believe that violence against the innocent is wrong, and as such should be severely punished, so as to discourage such behavior. Further, we believe that perpetrators of firearms-related violence do nothing but harm our cause, by providing ammunition to people like you. Thus we are doubly interested in seeing such offenders punished.

By the way, any time you want to actually debate the meat of the argument, i.e. firearms-related crime has no bearing on a societies need to be armed, instead of posting ad hominem attacks about RKBA folks, I'm all ears. The fact is, we can debate whether RKBA folks are heartless buffoons until the cows come home. It has no relevance to the real question, which I assume you are trying to raise by posting example after example of firearms violence:

Is the fact that firearms are commonly used to commit violent crime a valid justification to disarm an entire society?

If you want to discuss this, I would be happy to endulge you. But let's hear no more about how RKBA folks may or may not feel about the victims of firearm-related crime, because their feelings about the victims have no bearing on the above question.

Clover

[MrBenchley]

66. That wasn't the adjective I'd pick.

"let's hear no more about how RKBA folks may or may not feel about the victims of firearm-related crime"
I'll speak about what I feel like speaking about...especially those folks who share their dunghill sentiments publicly.

[mars_clover]

68. True to form, MrBenchley. Regular as clockwork.

That wasn't the adjective I'd pick.

Ah, another ad hominem attack, instead of logical discussion.


"let's hear no more about how RKBA folks may or may not feel about the victims of firearm-related crime"

I'll speak about what I feel like speaking about...especially those folks who share their dunghill sentiments publicly.

And no doubt you'll continue to ignore the pertinent, and obviously painful (for you) points of the discussion.

Rather than more ad hominem attacks, please address my above question, ignored previously:

Is the fact that firearms are commonly used to commit violent crime a valid justification to disarm an entire society?

And further, please answer the following question:

Are you, in fact, posting examples of firearms-related crime for the purpose of showing that firearms should be taken out of the hands of common citizens?

If not, please explain why you are posting numerous examples of firearms-related crime. I would prefer a more stimulating response than "It's obvious".

Clover

[MrBenchley]

70. Next ask me

if I care what you think. Or want.

Or what I think about the melange of hysteria, paranoia and lies that the RKBA crowd calls "logic." (Here's a hint, I think about it more or less the way I think about Mary Rosh's grasp of science.)

And yeah, the reason is blindingly obvious, as the regular pissing and moaning about it shows.

I will say that I've never had a discussion with a firearms "enthusiast" online or off, that left me thinking, "My, what a responsible, level-headed person with a strong grasp on reality. There's someone I feel safer knowing has a weapon."

And I don't think there's a better illustration of the need for stronger gun control laws than this thread and the daily dose of denial, dishonesty and outright deception demonstrated here every damn day by the RKBA crowd.

[mars_clover]

71. More duck and dodge from Mr. Benchley...

"Next ask me if I care what you think. Or want."

This from the person who denounces the entire RKBA crowd as people who don't care what victims of firearms violence think or want. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

Why is it so hard for you to answer a couple of questions?

I'm not interested in your ad hominem attacks on the feelings, mental states, or logical analysis skills of the RKBA crowd. It's not germane to the current debate.

I'm not interested in whether or not you feel safer knowing whether someone has a weapon or not. That also is not germane to the current debate.

Quit changing the subject.

Please answer the following, again:

Is the fact that firearms are commonly used to commit violent crime a valid justification to disarm an entire society?

-and-

Are you, in fact, posting examples of firearms-related crime for the purpose of showing that firearms should be taken out of the hands of common citizens?

As far as I can see, your refusal to address these core issues constitutes the best illustration of denial, dishonesty, and outright deception in these threads.

"And yeah, the reason is blindingly obvious, as the regular pissing and moaning about it shows."

If is so blindingly obvious, then it should be a trivial matter for you to provide a simple answer to my question:

Are you, in fact, posting examples of firearms-related crime for the purpose of showing that firearms should be taken out of the hands of common citizens?

If it is so blindingly obvious, why can't you provide a blindingly simple yes or no answer to a direct question?

Clover

[MrBenchley]

72. Like I said....

I don't much care what the RKBA crowd demands.

"This from the person who denounces the entire RKBA crowd as people who don't care what victims of firearms violence think or want."
Yup. I worry more about the victims of firearms violence. I really don't give a crap what the RKBA crowd wants anymore. I'm tired of their rancid rhetoric and the daily pile of stories from Newsmax and slurs against Democrats.

And most of all I'm goddamn tired of the paranoid tooralloo that someone is going to grab their precious guns any minute. If you think that's true, pipe down and hide under the bed. (Maybe Dianne Feinstein and I won't notice you at first and you'll be able to clutch your popgun close to you for a few extra precious seconds before it's gone forever.)

And I'm tired of the sorts of specimens that laugh about people getting terrorized and shot...or the sort of people who try to spin away that laugh.

Now go snivel about how awful it is these news stories are posted to someone who gives a big steaming crap. It sure as hell ain't me. I plan to post tomorrow's load tomorrow. Because if there's one thing you can count on in pResident turd's America, it's that tomorrow a whole bunch of gun owners are going to be a menace to themselves and others, and that a corrupt multi-million dollar lobby is going to do all they can to keep America in the line of fire, with the active connivance of the scummiest politicians on earth.

[mars_clover]

73. Thank you, Mr. Benchley...

"I don't much care what the RKBA crowd demands."

Translation: I can't debate the issue, so I'm going to bury my head in the sand while saying "lalalalalalalalala" and claiming that I don't care.

Come on, Mr. Benchley. Double-dog dare ya.

Is the fact that firearms are commonly used to commit violent crime a valid justification to disarm an entire society?

-and-

Are you, in fact, posting examples of firearms-related crime for the purpose of showing that firearms should be taken out of the hands of common citizens?

"I plan to post tomorrow's load tomorrow.

And I'll be here to keep asking that same, bitter question. Despite all the crime, is it a valid justification to disarm an entire society.

And because you can't answer that question, your evasiveness will continue to speak volumes even though you won't.

"Because if there's one thing you can count on in pResident turd's America, it's that tomorrow a whole bunch of gun owners are going to be a menace to themselves and others, and that a corrupt multi-million dollar lobby is going to do all they can to keep America in the line of fire, with the active connivance of the scummiest politicians on earth."

Translation: tommorrow millions of gun owners, in conjunction with the firearms industry and politicians who embrace our constitutional right to bear arms and will again take up the fight to preserve freedom and liberty.

Clover

[Columbia]

67. Welcome to the Dungeon, Mars

Debating with MrBenchley is an admirable, yet ultimately futile fight. He willfully refuses to engage in fruitful debate and consistently espouses logical fallacies to advance his agenda.

In any case, it's great to have another good guy here fighting for true liberalism ideals.

Cheers! :toast:

[mars_clover]

69. Hi Colmbia!

Thanks for the welcome!

Here's hoping we don't have another 4 years of W. :toast:

Clover

[beevul]

16. You have been initiated.

Welcome to DU!!

[alwynsw]

25. First things first. Welcome to DU!!

Search the news services. joe Homeowner, his cousin Jane Homeowner, and their firends, the Shopwoners rarely make the news when they foil an attack or robbery attempt because there is usually no bloodshed. It appears that most crooks, both armed and unarmed, tend to give up rather peacefully when confronted by an armed honest person. On the other hand, crooks seem to have no problem with shooting their victims. There are other shootings that occur, such as DV (a hot button item since OJ) that make the news mostly because they are hot button items.

Remember the newsies motto: "If it bleeds, it leads!"

Because of this, you will find far fewer "gun friendly" news reports.

Last thought: Most of the press is fairly turstworthy, but they're nearly unanimous intheir effort to see firearms strictly controlled or banned outright. It furthers their agenda to paint firearms in a bad light.

[CO Liberal]

30. Not Out Here

Last thought: Most of the press is fairly turstworthy, but they're nearly unanimous intheir effort to see firearms strictly controlled or banned outright. It furthers their agenda to paint firearms in a bad light.

Here in Colorado, virtually all the newspapers are Republican-owned right-wing rags. And THEY don't print many pro-gun stories, either.

Further reinforcing my theory that those stories just aren't out there.

[alwynsw]

31. There are pockets such as you describe on "both sides of the aisle"

No argument there. Perhaps I should clarify by stating that I was referring to both the print and broadcast (web included) media nationwide.

Before my previous post, I called two former schoolmates to verify the bleeds...leads rule. It still holds true. According to both, there's an unwritten policy at their stations (one is an ABC affiliate, the other is FOX) that requires crimes committed with handguns to be reported while running crimes prevented with any type of firearm to be run only on slow news days. My anti-gun friend in the news liked that angle. The "I'm ambivalent about guns" friend didn't.

Still waiting for emails from a couple of print news friends. One's an editor, the other a city editor. Both work on papers of over 100,000 circulation. Will post an update when I get the replies.

[milliner]

39. I don't know if you believe

what your write or if you try to deliberately miss lead people that read these threads.

The fact is that the politics of the owners have absolutely no earing on the NEWS that is reported. For everyone else take a minute to think about somebody like Rupert Murdoch. Do you really think that he calls up some paper he owns in a medium market and tell the editor to print more 'guns are good stories'?

The owners of these papers care much more about advertising revenue than news content. Again, put yourself in these people shoes and ask the question, how do I determine if this venture is successful and how do I measure the performance? If it were me I would track ad revenue and circulation. Yes I know that is simplistic and much more data is needed. But I would want snapshots of performance and this is a start.

Owners don't care what the politics of the editorial page is as long as the paper returns a higher percentage that can be earned in the market doing nothing.






Here in Colorado, virtually all the newspapers are Republican-owned right-wing rags. And THEY don't print many pro-gun stories, either.

[CO Liberal]

43. BWA-HA-HA-HA!!!!!

The fact is that the politics of the owners have absolutely no earing on the NEWS that is reported.

You've obviously never read the Colorado Springs Gazette, the Pueblo Chieftain, or the Las Vegas Review-Journal......

[MrBenchley]

46. If you were wondering who could possibly believe

Murdoch's Faux Noise Nutwork was "fair and balanced"....

[milliner]

49. Maybe you could

enlighten the rest of us morons and explain all of the newspapers that are owned by the owners of the ones you list.

I also noted the meat of this debate is totally and without any question ignored.

once again since the facts can not be disputed it is much easier to discredit something, anything that diverts from the facts. Besides making fun of someone is always more entertaining than actually thinking

[MrBenchley]

50. Too frigging funny....

"I also noted the meat of this debate is totally and without any question ignored."
No meat at all...more like cold gristle. This "debate" turned out to be yet another mindless wail about "why do we have to hear how many people get shot and terrorized by guns when guns give my stubby such a chubby?" from the RKBA crowd.

[mars_clover]

63. Exactly right!

"I also noted the meat of this debate is totally and without any question ignored.

once again since the facts can not be disputed it is much easier to discredit something, anything that diverts from the facts. Besides making fun of someone is always more entertaining than actually thinking."

Exactly so. Well said.

Clover

[MrBenchley]

10. Trial starts for suspect in killing of officer (MD)

"Jury selection is scheduled to begin today in the city's first death penalty case in six years - that of a man charged in the killing of police Detective Thomas G. Newman, who was ambushed outside a Southeast Baltimore tavern in 2002.
Capital punishment is a rarity in Baltimore, where the city's top prosecutor, Patricia C. Jessamy, has sought the death penalty just one other time in her nine-year tenure, even though dozens of cases are eligible each year.
Defendants Jovan J. House, 21, and Raymond Saunders, 22, are accused of shooting Newman Nov. 23, 2002, and could be executed if convicted. Prosecutors are not seeking death for a third defendant, Anthony A. Brown, 34, who is accused of driving the getaway car."

http://www.sunspot.net/news/local/crime/bal-md.newman27jan27,0,1473039.story?coll=bal-local-headlines

[MrBenchley]

12. Guard: FBI Suspects I Shot Myself

"The guard involved in a security scare outside a Brazoria County chemical plant broke his silence Monday night.
Friday night's shooting at the BASF chemical plant in Freeport had federal officials scrambling to determine if it was terror-related.
Robert House was working as a security guard at the plant when he said he spotted a man taking pictures of the area.
Instead, House said the agency is investigating the possibility that he shot himself. The FBI and the county's defense attorney are still investigating the guard's version of the shooting, News2Houston reported. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20040127/lo_kprc/1976437

[MrBenchley]

28. 6-year-old hit in cross fire is recovering (MI)

"A 6-year-old Detroit girl was moving her hands and legs Monday after being in shot in the head late Sunday night during a bizarre gunfight on Detroit's west side that baffled police.
"We still don't know the motive," Detroit Police Homicide Inspector Marilyn Hall-Beard said Monday.
There's a strong possibility that the young victim, Danaeja Ford, was accidentally shot in front of her home by her 25-year-old father during the shoot-out with a man carrying an assault rifle, police said.
James said her faith in God and the prayers of family members will get Danaeja through the worst.
Her faith helped her in 1989 when a gunman mistook her mother for someone else and shot her 10 times. It also helped her when her brother, Ahrian James, 18, was shot in the arm a few years ago"

http://www.freep.com/news/locway/shoot27_20040127.htm

[MrBenchley]

45. Accused teen testifies at his murder trial

Defensive gun use?

"FORT WORTH - A 17-year-old Fort Worth boy accused of killing two friends in a parked car in February 2002 testified in his own defense Monday, claiming he shot one accidentally and the other in self-defense.
A soft-spoken Erik Rueda Gonzalez, dressed in a white-button down shirt and black pants, calmly told jurors about the night of Feb. 12, 2002, when Christoper Perez, 16, was shot four times and Mario Moreno Jr., 19, was shot twice.
Gonzalez, who was certified to stand trial as an adult, was 15 at the time. If convicted of capital murder, he will receive an automatic life sentence."

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/local/7806568.htm

[MrBenchley]

47. 2 Osceola roommates argued before shooting

"KISSIMMEE -- A Buenaventura Lakes woman shot and killed one of her roommates a day after calling police while the two were arguing about dirty dishes, deputies said Monday.
Yolinda Wright Zinnerman, 31, made a 911 call to the Osceola County Sheriff's Office on Saturday evening, complaining that William B. Snyder, 35, wasn't keeping the kitchen clean, sheriff's spokesman Deputy Al DeArmas said.
On Sunday, she was arrested on a murder charge after deputies responding to 911 calls from neighbors discovered Snyder on the ground outside the house. He had been shot five times, the Sheriff's Office reported."

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/osceola/orl-locuntidykilling27012704jan27,1,4256572.story?coll=orl-news-headlines-osceola

[demsrule4life]

48. Note to self

if wife says do the dishes, best do them.

[MrBenchley]

51. Police Shooting Suspect Makes First Court Appearance (AL)

"(Athens) The man who admitted to killing two Athens police officers didn't speak a word as he left a Limestone County courtroom on Monday. During Farron Barksdale's first court hearing, a judge ruled to hold the 29 year old in jail without bond until the case can at least be presented to a grand jury.
Barksdale admits to luring Athens police to his home on January 2nd. Then, investigators say he fired an assault rifle from a window, killing Officer Tony Mims and Sergeant Larry Russell.
Barksdale's attorney says Barksdale told him he thought he was shooting at aliens. That's just one of the reasons Mays believes his client should be sent to a hospital instead of a prison or sentenced to death. He says laws have changed over the years to better protect society, and now a judge, not a doctor, can release someone. "

http://www.whnt19.com/Global/story.asp?S=1617177

Worth noting that despite being crazy as a outhouse rat AND on drugs, he had no problem walking into a gun store and buying an assualt weapon on Christmas Eve.

[MrBenchley]

52. Detectives Investigate Boynton Beach Killing (FL)

"Detectives in Boynton Beach were investigating a fatal shooting Monday afternoon.
Officers were called to the 400 block of NW 10th Avenue and found a man who had been shot several times. He was taken to Delray Medical Center, where he died.
"This does not appear to be a random act," said police Lt. Wendy Unger. "It appears it is the accumulation of some sort of dispute between two people." "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=308&ncid=308&e=2&u=/ibsys/20040126/lo_wpbf/1975716

[MrBenchley]

57. Police Investigate Murder Of South Florida Teacher

"Rosa Griffin says Sunday morning she rushed over to 9954 Southwest 224 Street after she received the worst phone call of her life. She says the sister of her daughter's boyfriend, 31-year-old Livingston Lionel Gordon, called to say he had just killed Cristel and was about to kill himself.
"He called and told her he had just shot Cristel and was about to shoot himself," says Rosa."

http://www.wsvn.com/news/articles/local/C34585/

[MrBenchley]

61. Police seeking killer of teenage boy in Feltonville (PA)

"Police were looking yesterday for the person who killed a 15-year-old boy in Feltonville on Sunday evening.
They said officers responding to the 4600 block of North Hurley Street at 6:22 p.m. found Alex Carrillo Morales, who had been shot once in the head and chest. Morales, who lived in the city's Cedarbrook section, was pronounced dead at Temple University Hospital at 6:49 p.m."

http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/local/states/pennsylvania/cities_neighborhoods/philadelphia/7803876.htm