Amen Rachel.

[tridim]

She gets it.

"If this would have happened 6 years ago, he wouldn't have been able to kill at the rate he did."

Fuck you Bush, Fuck you NRA, Fuck you GOP.

"We can't do this" is simply NOT ACCEPTABLE.

[bullwinkle428]

1. Re-setting Cheney's vote to NOT ban plastic, un-detectable guns!

:thumbsup:

[slackmaster]

14. Undetectable plastic guns have never been manufactured or sold in the US

They have never existed.

[Statistical]

25. Where do they come up with this insane shit? A plastic gun. ROFL

[slackmaster]

29. I think it's rooted in the fact that there are guns, like Glocks, that have polymer frames

If you pick up the frame of a Glock that is unloaded and has been field-stripped, it is indeed light. But the slide weighs almost as much as that of a 1911, and a full magazine makes the Glock pretty heavy.

Even the stripped frame could not make it through airport security for carry-on luggage. It has too much metal, and would be spotted easily.

[shedevil69taz]

34. Not to mention those pesky things called barrels

that are kind of a requirement for a firearm to function. If those were made of anything other than metal anyone dumb enough to try to fire one would do us all a favor and immediately remove themselves from the gene pool.

[tridim]

41. Do you know that we have plastics now that are stronger than titanium?

[Statistical]

53. Stronger isn't the issue.

Abrasion is.

"Strength" isn't a single masurement. There is no such thing as "stronger". Sheer strength vs hardness. Other properties also matter like conductivity. A huge amount of thermal energy is released in the chamber. A weapon with insufficient conductivity will simply melt.

There are no all plastic/ceramic guns. They don't exist outside TV. The ban was based on this line from Diehard.

"That punk pulled a GLOCK 7 on me. You know what that is? It's a ceramic gun made in Germany. It doesn't show up on your airport X-ray machines, and it cost more than you make here in a month"

Like most gun control zealots facts are optional. They tried to ban something that has never existed based on a quote from a fictional movie.

[slackmaster]

67. We don't have any plastics that are suitable for making a barrel for a repeating firearm

HTH

[benEzra]

79. Plastics harder than copper, that withstand 1000+ degrees and 35,000-60,000 psi *at the same time*,

and capable of withstanding thousands to hundreds of thousands of pressure/temperature/supersonic friction cycles without premature wear or catastrophic failure? Nope.

Yes, we have plastics that have more tensile strength than an equivalent weight of steel, and have for a long time. But they don't have the hardness or temperature resistance to work as gun barrels. FWIW, to my knowledge there aren't any guns with all-titanium barrels, either, because titanium is not hard enough to hold up. You could do a thin steel barrel surrounded by titanium (or carbon fiber composite, for that matter), but you have to have the steel barrel.

Also, it's child's play to make polymers X-ray detectable, by requiring trace quantities of barium in it. Even if plastic gun barrels were feasible (which they're not), banning them would be a goofy way to address the issue of X-ray detectability.

[gejohnston]

80. Assuming

that there were a ceramic or plastic hard as or harder than steel, they would still be detected by air port x-ray and the ammunition any springs would still be metal and would be detected my metal detectors. The ceramic would be heavy as if not heavier than steel and the plastic would be very expensive, limiting the market to near zero.

[Euromutt]

77. "In the Line of Fire," I suspect

John Malkovic's character constructs a plastic gun that can vaporize a duck at several dozen yards, despite having no sights and probably being a smoothbore.

[RSillsbee]

81. It was made of wood NT

[krispos42]

96. I saw the movie a couple of weeks ago on cable

I recall it was some kind of high-strength polymer that the model-building subculture used.

[RSillsbee]

98. He was sitting by the lake whittling the damn thing

it had two strikers on the back end he shot the duck and one of the rednecks asked him what he was going to do w/ a wooden gun and he replied that he was going to kill the President then he shot them.

[AtheistCrusader]

84. Die Hard 2 was the original source, IIRC.

[CreekDog]

51. then if they don't exist, you should have no problem banning them

unless you perhaps want them to exist.

[Statistical]

54. Govt authority to ban things doesn't work that way.

Govt shows a compelling reason and then bans/restricts something.

[CreekDog]

55. so if they existed you would support banning them?

:hi:

[Straw Man]

56. In fact...

...they are already banned, under the Undetectable Firearms Act of 1988 - Public Law 100-649; 18 U.S.C. 922. The fact is that no undetectable firearms exist, but should they ever come to exist, they will be illegal.

I am fully in favor of this law that bans a weapon which does not exist. See? I'm being reasonable.

[CreekDog]

57. you are, but not the person I asked

:hi:

[AtheistCrusader]

85. Too bad you didn't know they were already illegal, huh?

Makes it hard for people to have an intelligent discussion about firearms policy, when the people who want to ban shit don't know what's already banned.

[X_Digger]

26. And ban those super-duper photon cannons!

... that also don't exist. Fucking duh.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tridim]

6. I'm putting them all on ignore, one by one.

I don't care what they have to say any more. They're all irrational.

[Skittles]

9. oh come on, give it a shot (pun intended)

go on: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x357056

[TheWraith]

20. What you mean is, you don't want to have your beliefs corrected by facts.

Since when challenged for simple answers, all you've been able to do is reply with insults and vague hyperbole.

[lawodevolution]

43. "6. I'm putting them all on ignore, one by one. "

Awe that's so sad. You lost the debate and now you are plugging your ears and humming so that you can't hear us.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[justiceischeap]

3. I love how she used the Gipper (Reagan) as examples of gun control legislation

Since the right loves him so...

[malaise]

10. Have no fear

That was deliberate. :D

[justiceischeap]

17. Not only deliberate but smart

Now if our politicians will only listen to her and frame their argument using the softball she lobbed to them.

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. 'xept that if this man

went to the gun show, even with banned mags, he'd be able to buy them.

Why it is ALSO critical to close that loophole.

We do live in a sick culture.

[DeSwiss]

7. "We do live in a sick culture."

Upon that we can agree. :)

[tridim]

11. I think it's our job as humans to heal our sick culture.

Or at the very least try to heal it.

And more guns is not the answer. Not even close.

[DeSwiss]

23. Or at least to try to heal our sick culture.

- But it's difficult when the patient doesn't agree that they have a problem and thinks you're the one with the problem......

"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." ~Krishnamurti

[lawodevolution]

48. "And more guns is not the answer. Not even close."

Yet every time you express your hate and intolerance of gun owners you motivate them to buy more guns and thus fuel firearm proliferation.

[Hoyt]

60. That is sad and a good reason to control guns. Are gun-obsessed arming up to shoot 220 Million who

don't have guns? Sometimes I wonder.

[rl6214]

61. Are the anti-gun obssed infringing on the constitutional rights

of ALL guns owners because of the actions of criminal elements?

[AtheistCrusader]

87. Says you.

I see firearms as a tool for PROTECTING human life. Just like a CPR mask. A first aid/trauma kit. First aid training. Search and Rescue training, etc.

ALL for the purposes of saving human life that is in jeoprady.
That's why I carry all this shit. My life. Your life. My wife, my kid. Someone elses wife/kid. Even a police officer. You name it. If human life is in danger, I have tools and training to help.

So, more guns, in certain people's hands, IS at least part of the answer. In the hands of people who respect and cherish human life.

[DWC]

102. You have stated the attitude of 99.9%

of all LEOs and CCWs.

Semper Fi,

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. Why is it that policy makers

can see this problem? But not some people?

[DeSwiss]

27. If I had to sum it up.....

...to a singular cause, I'd say its education. Certainly perspective.


- Or a lack thereof.....

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. I guess my perspective is formed

by way too many victims of gun violence...

:-)

[lawodevolution]

49. So your solution would be gun control? How's the gun ban working out in Nigeria, Mexico, Jamaica,

Russia and eastern Europe?

[AtheistCrusader]

88. And the 60,000+ people the US Department of Justice cites as using firearms lawfully

for self defense every year?

What of them? Because the only legal justification for using deadly force is the fact your own life was in danger. Not necessarily danger from someone with a gun, either.

[lawodevolution]

47. "we do live in a sick culture," in which angry bigoted people,who don't understand the culture and

Heratage of others, decide to express their hate and fear of other cultures and values by cussing them out and wishing ill upon them. As part of the gun culture and openly admitting to owning guns I have noticed that anti gun individuals who know me are now treating me poorly. That's ok, I forgive y'all, it's human nature to hate what we fear and fear what we don't understand.

[AtheistCrusader]

86. Had nothing to do with gun shows.

You can only buy legal shit at gun shows. You know the shows are crawling with on duty, off duty, and retired police officers right?

Also, the ban was only on the manufacture of NEW magazines of large capacity. Didn't ban any already made and on the market. Which means, he would have paid about $60 for that same exact mag during the ban. Perfectly legal. Could have bought it standing in front of a hundred cops.

[malaise]

5. A brilliant opening segment

Damn she tore the Dick a new one.

[slackmaster]

8. Too bad that's not true

But it's nice to pretend.

[upi402]

12. "Our side needs to tone down the rhetoric" ,,, oh puhleez!

"There are whackos on both sides" <--- gawd help me if I hear that false equivalency from our side again!!!!!

[Paladin]

13. Oh Goody. Here Comes Another "Hate Rachel" Thread In The Guns Forum (n/t)

[Skittles]

18. oh, you are late, darlin'

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x357056

[AtheistCrusader]

89. I love Rachel.

I even enjoy listening to her on this topic, even if, on this topic, she is totally wrong. Literally, factually wrong, every time she brings it up.

Offering facts and citation in counter to a statement she makes on this subject is not hate.
Nor will you see me jumping on her statements in the other forums, where I almost always agree.

[Ilsa]

15. I'm loving the Chris Rock replay. One of my favs. nt

[Volaris]

16. beat me to it...

dammitt
=)

[Ilsa]

21. She debates her opponents brilliantly with words, not rhetorical brainwashing. nt

[DissedByBush]

35. Apparently she's debating her opponents with lies

As this one is.

[Callisto32]

64. Too bad ideas are what matter.

You can talk all day and say nothing.

[PavePusher]

69. She'd be better off with actual facts.

Something 10 minutes with Google could get for her.

[Statistical]

24. Explain that to Cho. n/t

[X_Digger]

28. 'cept if he'd carried a second gun.

You know, the other gun he bought at the same fucking time??

*headdesk*

[tridim]

30. Apparently you don't get it.

Keep banging your head on the desk.

[X_Digger]

32. google New York Reload..

then come back and talk.

Not to mention that the extended magazine in this glock was actually legally available for sale during the ban.

Yeah, ones manufacturer after 1994 couldn't be sold, but the manufacturers made sure there were plenty enough to go around.

I bought a 20 round extended magazine for a 1911... in 1998. Legally. Over the counter. At a big box sporting goods store.

[PavePusher]

38. I swear, if they pass a ban, I'm going to buy a second 1911...

and open carry two at a time instead on just the one. Hell, it'll balance better...

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[shadowrider]

44. How do I contact the "Department of Need" to ask their permission

for me to buy anything based on whether or not they think I need it.

Just curious.

[X_Digger]

50. Target practice and home defense.

At the time, it was the only handgun I had, so it performed multiple functions.

[PavePusher]

52. Just because you don't know or agree with my reasons

doesn't mean I'm "planning a mass murder".

Keep your vile accusations and bigotry elsewhere.

[Callisto32]

65. You don't need anything other than the few minor requirements to sustain life.

Who the fuck are you to appoint yourself the arbiter of people may and may not have? I'd be far more worried about the actions of people, than their possessions.

[timo]

74. wow if you hate the 20 rounder

your really not going to like my beta mag that I have on my sbr 5.56, it holds way more than 20.

[AtheistCrusader]

90. Nice dodge. OH SHIT A FACT, better attack the messenger.

Pretty pathetic attempt dude.

[burrfoot]

97. Why would anyone bother with a 20 round extended?

Many (such as my Glock 17, but also many Springfields, Sigs, and I'm sure others) come with 16-17 round magazines standard.

No one can control what you find scary, and if that's your honest opinion you are absolutely entitled to it.

Despite your attempt to belittle, however, there's nothing "blingy" about an extended magazine. It's generally a flat black chunk of plastic that sticks out very awkwardly from the bottom of the grip.

And not to put too fine a point on it, but answered yourself in your own post. An extended mag (although I think you may actually be thinking of numbers closer to 30 than 20) can be useful for target shooting.

[Euromutt]

76. Two words: Patrick Sherrill

In 1986, Sherrill committed a mass shooting in the post office in Edmond, OK. He killed 14 co-workers and wounded six more before committing suicide. The weapons he used were a pair of GI-standard Colt M1911A1s with 7-round magazines. So despite having less than half the number of rounds in the gun that Loughner had, Sherrill killed more than twice as many people.

The problem with assertions like "if Loughner hadn't had extended mags, he would not have been able to kill as many people" is that it implicitly assumes that all other variables would have been equal. But that's not a justified assumption. Mass shooters tailor their plans to the means they have available, and there's no reason to assume Loughner would have proceeded the exact same way he did had he not had extended mags available. The fact that he did may very well have played a role in his decision to leave his second gun at home and use only the one.

It's facile to dismiss this objection as "not getting it." I get the argument; I just don't agree with it.

[friendly_iconoclast]

33. The panic mongers prefer moral posturing. And as you see, they get quite hostile...

..towards those who have the temerity to bring up facts.

[Rincewind]

36. Complete, and utter

bullshit. It was easy, and legal to buy high capacity magazines during the ban.The ban just outlawed making new magazines and selling them after the ban started. Previously made magazines could be legally sold, and since the manufactures were given several months notice before the ban went into effect,there were fairly large stockpiles of high capacity magazines. They were easy to find, and usually reasonably priced.

[PavePusher]

37. "She gets it."

Well, if by "gets it", you mean lie for 60 straight minutes, yeah, she got it alright.

Way to go, Rach.

[lawodevolution]

39. Garbage thread full of bigotry and hate. KKK and neo NAZIs also feel that

Way about the political opposite and also can't tolerate the views of others when they differ.

[hack89]

42. Too bad it is not true. nt

[aikoaiko]

46. We just don't know that to be true.

Its not that we can't -- its that we shouldn't and won't.

[onehandle]

58. So true. Rachel does get it. nt

[GreenStormCloud]

59. No she doesn't. High capacity mags were legal back then too.

The only difference is that they had to be manufactured prior to the AWB. But the makers had lots of warning about the AWB and had months to ramp up production so they were able to keep on selling hi-cap mags all the way through the AWB.

Even with standard mags he could have continued killing, just as the VT killer, Luby's killer, and Ft. Hood killer did, by rapid reloads.

[krispos42]

83. She knows that. I heard her say it once on her show.

As a very minor part of her monologue one day. But the focus of her discussions about this is that "if the AWB hadn't been allowed to expire, it wouldn't have happened".

[AtheistCrusader]

91. If she acknowledges they were legal to buy during the ban

how the hell would the ban have prevented this?

I'm confused.

[krispos42]

92. Um...

...the extra shipping costs from ordering on-line would have forced him to buy less ammo?

[AtheistCrusader]

94. I want to rage at you...

but I love your sig too much.

[krispos42]

95. Thanks!

:D

[rl6214]

62. Not even close

[onehandle]

70. You are so right, onehandle.

Rachel is an angel.

[Straw Man]

73. Talking to yourself again?

Revisiting your greatest hits? Getting nostalgic for the good old days of moral outrage? Reanimating dead threads never works out well: ask Victor Frankenstein.

[rrneck]

75. You're scaring me.

You're talking to yourself again.

[DissedByBush]

72. Rachel is absolutely clueless on this issue

She may get it right on other things, but she's ignorant as all hell on guns.

I mean absolutely so uninformed that any statement she makes should come with a disclaimer, "Author is completely ignorant about anything related to guns."

[AtheistCrusader]

93. Wait, did you seriously necro this thread?

Dammnit, I even said to myself 'not this shit again' when I saw it...

Damnit.

[Callisto32]

63. Objection, Your Honor....

...speculation.

[slackmaster]

66. BTW, it was Congress that declined to renew the failed, expired "AW" ban

Bush even said he'd sign a bill to do that if it ever got to his desk.

People who supported the ban had TEN FULL YEARS to gather evidence and make a case for making the ban permanent. They came up empty-handed.

Rachel is poorly informed on this issue.

[benEzra]

68. Over-10-round magazines were *NEVER* illegal. Read the law.

The 1994 Feinstein law raised prices on some (mostly handgun) magazines, but all magazines stockpiled worldwide prior to 9/94 were completely exempt, and were 100% legal to import, sell, buy, and possess 1994-2004.

You could legally buy 15- or 33-round Glock magazines in 1997 or 2002, they just cost more. Standardized 20- and 30-round magazines for AR's and AK's, on the other hand, cost less during the non-ban than they do now (I paid $5.99/ea for 20's and $9.99/ea for 30's in 2003).

[Remmah2]

78. Rachel does not get it.

A half baked commentary.

[rrneck]

71. She gets it all right.

She gets tons of money telling people what they want to hear.

[krispos42]

82. Yeah, he would have.

So sorry to burst your bubble, but he could have bought a perfectly legal, used magazine of 31 rounds capacity.

Or did like Neo in The Matrix and whipped out a pair of .45-caliber Glocks with 10-round magazines. After all, if you can only put 10 in the gun, might as well make'em big, right?

Or maybe a pump shotgun cut down with a hacksaw. Let's see, 12 8.8mm pellets a shell, times 6 shells, is a hell of a storm of death and destruction, isn't it?


You guys are focusing way too much on a single issue that's not relevant but makes for some decent airplay. If you're so worried about capacity, why not also make a law determining how many magazines for a type of gun you can own?





If you own, say, 3 Glock 9mm pistols, you can only own one magazine for them. C'mon, do it. If you own 3 Glock 9mms and 2 .45 autos, then you can own one magazine for the Glocks and one for the .45s.

"We can't do this" is simply not acceptable!

[Hoyt]

100. Good reason to monitor what folks acquire . At some point, mental illness has to be considered.

[aikoaiko]

99. I'm glad this thread got revived. It shows that lies & distortions no longer dictate new gun laws

The truth is: You "can't do this"....not with lies and distortions anymore. We've come to far.

[Logical]

101. Most of us agree with the "Fuck NRA" and "Fuck GOP" part.

[David West]

104. True, Logical!

The NRA is too full of compromise and the GOP is... well, the GOP.

[Atypical Liberal]

103. Link please?

I have seen two threads commenting on this but there are no links to the video.

Thanks.