Harsh Gun Control Will Seem Like the War On Drugs,Opines a Harvard Professor

[RSillsbee]

Harsh Gun Control Will Seem Like the War On Drugs,Opines a Harvard Professor

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Since the Tucson shootings, this is one of the better articles detailing the utter worthlessness of strict gun control and its inevitable negative results.

The author does have the annoying habit of referring to magazines as "clips",but his overall common sense makes it easier to overlook this all too common mistake.

The atrocity committed last weekend in Tucson, Arizona, by alleged perpetrator Jared Loughner has predictably generated calls for new gun-control laws in the U.S.

Some want bans on the extended-capacity ammunition clips that allowed Loughner to fire more than 30 shots from his Glock semi-automatic pistol without reloading. Others want improved background screening to prevent mentally unstable individuals from purchasing guns.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-01-14/harsh-gun-control-will-seem-like-war-on-drugs-commentary-by-jeffrey-miron.html

updated link

[wtmusic]

1. Thanks. nt

[sharesunited]

2. Do nothing (except allow guns and ammo to proliferate) and everything will be fine.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

4. Actually enforce what we have and things will indeed be fine

Though it would be good to standardize some things national and get rid of some of the artificial and uncalled for restrictions in CA and elsewhere.

[sharesunited]

9. Not when "in popular use" is the standard of 2A protection.

That just accelerates the dissemination of worse products into the hands in the public.

[Katya Mullethov]

35. What must really suck a bovine uterine prolapse

And I mean that , really .

Is that nothing is going to happen , and even more freedoms will be forthcoming shortly . The hens will squawk and flap about , but that will be the sum of it .

[sharesunited]

67. And blood will flow until the pendulum swings.

Plessey gave us separate but equal for 58 years.

Did the 14th Amendment change to give us Brown?

No. Minds changed.

[Katya Mullethov]

71. I certainly understand how that "mind thing" works

I have my finger firmly on the prostate of my constituency and can attest that very few share your authoritarian view nor contempt for the freedoms of OTHER citizens .

On average , I win one convert a day to the cause of constitutional carry . People I know , people I meet . It sells itself .

Have you met any people lately..... and convinced them to join you and help you in your crusade ? I think you could use some help . Especially in light of the this past weeks developments regarding the easing of restrictions even though some gibbering little gibbon actually shot someone .

[sharesunited]

72. Then you are partly to blame for destruction of the country.

Just doing your part.

[Katya Mullethov]

73. And all because I control the grammar

Imagine the exponential possibilities . 100 million illiterates ,all babbling in tongues .You're gonna have hell ordering in a French restaurant,that's for sure .


So , C'mon in , the waters fine ! Nobody's gonna shiv you .

[sharesunited]

74. OK, you are high now AND armed?

[Katya Mullethov]

75. lol

We need to do coffee sometime !

[sharesunited]

76. Leave the piece at home though.

[Katya Mullethov]

77. It's pieces . But you'd never really know .....would ya ?

But I promise !

[ProgressiveProfessor]

37. Your standards for reference and comparison are laughable not to mention historically inaccurate

Keep beating your drum in support of racist and classist laws, it must make you feel warm all over

[sharesunited]

69. Equal protection under the law

means protection from having all your rights taken from you quickly and conveniently upon the whim of another.

That's what equal protection means to me, at least.

A value which transcends race or wealth or social status.

An absolute good for one and all.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

70. Your interpretation, like others you make is quite unique and laughable

Take your racist and classist single issue crusade elsewhere.

[HockeyMom]

3. Kill yourself with drugs

You can only kill YOURSELF with drugs. You can kill OTHER PEOPLE with guns. If you cannot see the difference, you certainly shouldn't being owning any guns.

[X_Digger]

10. Tell that to the drunk driver's victims. *sigh* n/t

[wtmusic]

14. Drunk drivers get charged with a crime

Woman, 71, Accidentally Shot Inside Restaurant

http://www.click2houston.com/news/26491869/detail.html

[X_Digger]

17. Drunk driver not charged after putting man in hospital

http://www.kfor.com/news/local/kfor-news-drunk-driver-no-charge-man-hospital-story,0,7124307.story

Joey Porter Will Not Be Charged After Saturday Arrest
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/31/joey-porter-will-not-be-c_n_520763.html

Chief escapes drunk driving prosecution
http://www.concordmonitor.com/article/chief-escapes-drunk-driving-prosecution



I'm sorry, did you actually have a point to make?

[wtmusic]

18. I could imagine you googling like mad to find a story from two months ago

but the difference is fairly obvious: policy vs. mistake.

[X_Digger]

22. "policy"? Perhaps you missed this bit..

No charges have been filed against the man, but police said it's an ongoing investigation, so that could change.

The case will be considered by a grand jury.

[wtmusic]

23. What's to investigate?

The guy dropped a dangerous weapon like a moron, someone was injured and could have been killed.

A drunk driver would have been booked on the scene (then again it's Texas, where the investigation will reveal a lady carelessly got in the way of a law-abiding citizen's bullet).

[X_Digger]

27. When did you get on scene?

Seems you have more information than this short news blurb indicates.

Tell us how it really went down.

[wtmusic]

28. The facts are not disputed.

"Houston police said a 66-year-old man was dining at Raffa's restaurant in the 1600 block of West Lake Houston Parkway at about 9 p.m. when a gun fell out of his coat pocket.

When the Derringer hit the ground, it fired and a bullet wounded a 71-year-old woman in the buttocks."

A drunk driver would be in jail, and you are grasping at straws.

[X_Digger]

31. What "policy" is it that you assert keeps this man out of jail?

You're citing one newspaper article as 'the facts'?

Damn, why do we even need courts, if those are the facts.

[russ1943]

51. If it isn't knowingly, no arrest, in Florida

Gun discharges accidentally in McDonalds
Tavernier – A Miami man with a small caliber handgun in his pocket accidentally shot himself in the leg Tuesday morning.

44 year old Rafael Ubeda was in line for breakfast at McDonalds Restaurant in Tavernier. He has a concealed weapons permit issued by the State of Florida and was carrying a .22 caliber Derringer handgun in his coat pocket. He told Detective Mike Wilkinson his hands were cold and when he put them in his pockets, he must have hit the trigger and the gun fired.

He said no one in line with him reacted, but the manager of the restaurant asked him to leave, so he did. The manager then followed Ubeda out to the parking lot, got a description of his vehicle, and reported the incident to the Sheriff’s Office.

Lt. Mitch Horn and Capt. Don Fanelli stopped the car about six miles south. Detective Mike Wilkinson responded and was interviewing Ubeda when he noticed blood on the man’s pants leg. He pointed this out to Ubeda, who was not aware of the fact that he’d shot himself in the leg.

Paramedics responded and transported him to Mariner’s Hospital, where he was treated for his injury. Ubeda will not be charged in connection with the accidental discharge of his firearm because Florida State Statute specifically requires the discharge of a firearm to be done “knowingly” in order for it to result in an arrest.
http://floridakeyssheriff.blogspot.com/2010/12/gun-discharges-accidentally-in.html


On October 19, 2009, Bystander Latrecia Levine was shot and killed at The Allied
Veterans Cyber Center Internet Café (in Florida) when a man’s handgun fell out of his waistband, hit the floor and discharged, striking her in the back. The shooter, who had a concealed handgun permit, apparently had ignored a sign on the door that included firearms among the items prohibited from inside the businesswoman
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/crime/2009-10-22/sto...

[X_Digger]

54. How is this relevant to TX? n/t

[RSillsbee]

41. Wounded in the Butt- OCKs

Run Forrest run

[beevul]

47. So do gun murderers.

And thats besides the point.

I think the point being refuted was this:

"You can only kill YOURSELF with drugs."

And it was.

[shadowrider]

56. You can only kill YOURSELF with drugs

Oh how wrong you are.

Person A acquires HIV through an infected needle.
Person A goes with persons B and C to score
Persons A, B and C share a needle
Persons A, B and C now have HIV
and the process repeats itself

You can only kill yourself with drugs.

Sheesh.

[tridim]

5. "Richard Falkenrath, a principal at the Chertoff Group"

Yea, that Chertoff.

Anyone with a brain and morals should stop reading right there.

[Kolesar]

7. Good catch...eom

[wtmusic]

8. Cato Institute Senior Fellow

if you make it all the way to the end. "Harvard" has a nice ring to it, though.

[wtmusic]

6. Of course, Loughner would have just "aimed more carefully".

What a pantload (by extension, the author must feel regulating full-auto is equally pointless).

Once again, the argument against gun control boils down to "well, we don't really know for sure whether making something harder to buy would make it harder to buy, so a few dead people are worth making gun ownership more convenient."

Cato Institute libertarian drivel.

[X_Digger]

11. Did you forget that he bought a second gun on Nov 30?

google 'new york reload'

[wtmusic]

16. What's your point? nt

[X_Digger]

26. We have actual incidents to look at- VT, Luby's, etc..

That demonstrate that a determined shooter will change tactics / equipment to suit their twisted desire to kill.

Cho used two handguns, keeping one available while reloading.

Hennard shot those closest to him, and used one gun to cover the crowd while reloading.

It's nice to think that if we could have changed 'just one thing', this might not have happenned. But to assume that a killer won't or can't adapt to different circumstances is not only naive, but dangerous.

[RSillsbee]

42. Hennard

According to eyewitness Suzanna Gratia Hupp (yes, that Suzanna Gratia Hupp) Hennard reloaded far too fast for anyone to stop him.

She also watched her father rush Hennard only to be shot. She stated that her father "Never had a chance"

[YllwFvr]

12. if he had used a full auto

its very likely fewer people would have been hit

[wtmusic]

13. How do you figure?

This should be good.

[YllwFvr]

20. have you ever seen someone shoot a full auto pistol?

due to increased recoil they are pretty hard to control. auto pistols are nearly impossible to hit anything with.

[wtmusic]

21. I've seen the video which has been posted around here

of someone shooting a Glock 18 at a range, and going through a mag in a few seconds.

You believe full auto is less lethal than semi?

[YllwFvr]

24. ah you know the video im referencing

ok so say Loughner was using that gun in arizona. He goes through that 33 round magazine in about one second. That means he just put a ton of lead in the area of one, perhaps two or three people. Now he has to reload. Its a total waste of ammunition. For close range, single target, then yes I would say a glock 18 is far more lethal. But in the situation he was in, I think it would have done less damage yes. For that a semi auto is far more useful.

[wtmusic]

25. Agree, it would be a shame to waste all that ammunition

and with prices the way they are...

Anyway, there was quite a crowd gathered at the Safeway. What if Loughner brought along 10 mags and went through them faster than the one he did, spraying the crowd.

Would there be six deaths, or more like 60?

[YllwFvr]

29. i think you mistook what I meant by waste

what if he had brought 10 mags? his second one failed him and they took him down. it would have been no different, the glock 18 would have taken the exact same mags

[wtmusic]

30. Good thing it did fail too, semi or full.

Now, let's assume the mechanism unfortunately did not fail. It performed as it was designed to, and Loughner got off 10 full mags to one semi.

Which is more lethal?

[YllwFvr]

33. with 10 mags for both

then the auto, with 2 mags, the semi.

I didnt catch it in the news article, he had just the two magazines? I imagine if he had more they would have mentioned it but I cant be sure

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wtmusic]

34. Is Zombie Apocalypse a game?

Sorry, not that familiar with the genre. Is that the source of your experience?

Seems like if you were attacked by a dense crowd of people a full auto would come in handy.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wtmusic]

45. Something tells me Loughner was not being selective

and that any human flesh would have worked for his purposes (other than Giffords, for whom at point blank range it hardly matters).

You also believe that full auto is less dangerous than semi in the hands of a madman?

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RSillsbee]

43. Full auto weapons

are good for suppressive fire and clearing a room (hand grenades work even better). Most concealable full auto guns are notoriously inaccurate and any thing big enough to be accurate would have been damn near impossible to conceal.

[right2bfree]

15. Good! We have seen too many people killed with guns!!!!

[X_Digger]

36. Am I understanding you correctly?

Are you saying, "Yay! We need more black markets servicing the needs of criminals!" ??

Or how about, "Good! We need more folks resorting to violence to settle business disputes because they can't go to the courts or cops!" ???

I don't think you actually read the article, or you're dangerously mistaken about the effects of the War on (Some) Drugs.

[pacalo]

19. He couldn't go a step further & at least offer alternative solutions?

Okay, he makes sense in regard to bans leading to black market sales. The corruption & increased violence that evolved from alcohol & drug prohibitions make a strong case against bans. When people want something badly enough, they'll ignore the financial & legal costs.

On the other hand, the "CATO brother" ignores other remedies (because it goes against the grain of his brethren?): more focus on mental healthcare needs, reinstate the Fairness Doctrine, & a federal commission to remedy the current vitriol/propaganda on public airwaves.

:thumbsdown:

[PavePusher]

38. Fairness Doctrine?

Like practiced (or not, as it happens) on MSNBC all this last week?

[pacalo]

40. Yes! Someone has to dispel Fixed News' & Tokyo Rose-caliber radio hate talk

but the Fairness Doctrine would put real "balance" on Fixed News: for every lie & false message it delivers on behalf of the GOP's agenda, it would require a rebuttal by a just-as-fervent Democratic spokesperson -- preferably, without interruption or removal of that person's microphone or abrupt cutting into the rebuttal for a commercial.

Thank God for MSNBC. Someone in the media needs to put out the truth in regard to Fixed News & hate radio. And MSNBC would WELCOME any scrutiny of anything they report.

Have a problem with that? Actually, I'm expecting a parsing of the Fairness Doctrine in a way that would fit your viewpoint; isn't that how all skewed viewpoints get a chance to live another day?

[PavePusher]

44. I'm very sorry, you missed what I thought was quite apparent sarcasm.

MSNBC had a tag-team attack on the Second Amendment all week (Olberman, Maddow, Matthews, O'Donnell, Ratigan and Schultz.

Not a contrary guest to be found, nothing but a giant echo chamber. There was misinformation, untrue "facts, distortions and outright lies, with not an ounce of counter-argument anywhere.

Fainess Doctrine, indeed. :sarcasm:


Edit: My mistake, Ratigan had some honest opposing viewpoints. Good for him.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31510813/#41026206

[beevul]

48. I watched Rachel...

She trotted out VPC info.

The graphic on her screen on her show, showed a "vpc study".


Thats like going to jeffry dahmer for information on how to best serve humanity.

[pacalo]

49. Hey, if you want a viewpoint different than MSNBC, go to Fixed News.

[beevul]

50. I prefer unbiased viewpoints, like the FBI unified crime reports.

How about you?

I notice you didn't address that I didn't take issue with nbc, I took issue with the VPC.

Are you familiar with them?

They're the outfit IIRC that claimed that the .50 bmg (a scoped long range non automatic rifle) was a danger to aircrafts in the air.

And a few other lies.

It should tell you something, that the FBI unified crime reports offer up a different picture than the VPC paints. And that reflects quite poorly on msnbc and on Rachel.

But I guess the VPC knows better than the FBI :eyes:

[russ1943]

52. It's Uniform not Unified

And VPC reports them quite accurately.
To say that if you recall correctly, they lie just doesn't cut it.
What have they lied about? Provide a specific.

[beevul]

53. I already provided one.

Its also well documented that they've lied about concealed permit holders.

Besides that, as I have said, they're a gun ban group, and hardly what one could remotely call unbiased in any honest way.

Proof of that, one can find simply by going to their website. They haven't taken to trying to hide it like the brady bunch has. Yet.


Beyond that, I seem to remember the term "bullet hose", and a depiction of the vpc constructing their reports:




If one looks, and is interested and open minded, one can find all sorts of documented dishonesty on their part, on the web.

I suspect, however, that you are neither interested nor open minded on the subject.

You were right about it being uniform though, and I give you credit for that.

[friendly_iconoclast]

66. So what? Why didn't Ms. Maddow quote them directly, as they are publicly available:

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/ucr

A failure to use primary sources should raise a red flag about anybody, whether Fox "News", Rachel Maddow, Red State,

or Keith Olbermann.

[shadowrider]

68. I have found that many on this forum

firmly believe in the "They said it, it must be true" mentality. No further research is necessary on their part and what they know (misguided, incorrect and far off-base) is repeated as mantra, simply because some talking head said it.

[PavePusher]

55. Remember when I mentioned the Fairness Doctrine a few comments up?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairness_Doctrine

It seems we (the "left") are only willing to apply it to those we disagree with, and not to ourselves.

Facsinating, eh?

[pacalo]

61. See #59.

[PavePusher]

64. Then why are they not practicing it? n/t

[shadowrider]

57. You do realize, don't you, the Fairness Doctrine would also apply to MSNBC etc.

And would not be exclusively aimed at and used at Fox.

Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.

[pacalo]

59. Did you read my post?

Believe me, MSNBC would welcome the Fairness Doctrine.

Can you give any example of false information that MSNBC has given?

[shadowrider]

60. Maddow and her anti-gun rant n/t

[pacalo]

62. I'm with Russ on #53. Still waiting for your answer.

[shadowrider]

63. You asked me for one example without exclusion. I gave it to you

I see no need for anything else.

[old mark]

58. He's a Harvard Professor...Oh, wait what he's saying s PRO GUN -

better ignore and villify him...we don't need the truth when we already have our opinions and prejudices fully formed.
(Sarcasm, for those who don't get it...)
K&R
mark

[spin]

65. Apparently at least one Harvard professor has some brains ...

and can use logic to reason.