Today: At least two shot at Los Angeles-area high school

[RhodaA]

Jan 18, 2011 15:12 EST

LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - At least two people were shot at a Los Angeles-area high school on Tuesday, and police took a young man into custody.

Read more:
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Statistical]

2. It is trivially easy to make bullets. The technology is roughly 150 years old.

[SteveM]

6. Votiing.

Instead of more voting control, how about a tax? How about if your local registrar required a tax so you could cast a vote?

This was actually done. Reference U.S. Constitution.

[HankyDubs]

8. you fail

do you vote with bullets?

[X_Digger]

10. voting is a right.. keeping and bearing arms is a right..

Analogies, what can I say.. not everyone gets em.

[HankyDubs]

12. my vote

doesn't put a hole in your head.

Analogies are only used to distort the truth. You compare two things that are different so that you can avoid addressing the issue.

[X_Digger]

13. If 'thing A' were exactly the same as 'thing B', it wouldn't be an analogy, it would be equality.

*sigh* I wonder sometimes, I really do.

[HankyDubs]

14. you promote the notion that these things are equivalent.

So why the sighing? That's your position!

As I said, analogies are used to distort the truth. My voting right doesn't endanger other people. Taxing ammunition is not the same as a poll tax...they aren't even remotely similar. The right to hoard ammunition is not mentioned in the constitution.

[X_Digger]

15. Your voting right doesn't hurt other people? Tell that to the people of Iraq..

Enough dumb shits voted for dumya to put us in the crapper for 8 years, killing thousands of civilians.

All rights have dangers to society.

The fourth amendment frees rapists.

The fifth amendment frees killers.

The first amendment protects the David Koresh's of the world.

The eighth amendment keeps us from coercing confessions from pedophiles..

[HankyDubs]

16. Bush chose the war

The votes themselves did not kill a single human being. Do you see how this works yet? My vote doesn't put holes in people's bodies.

All these enumerated rights have certain limits. It is the right of persons and institutions to place reasonable limits on those rights. A person hunting wild game does not need an ar-15 to hunt, and a person "defending their family" with a handgun doesn't need a 30 round magazine. At that point, the rights of other individuals to live in a sane society takes precedence.

[SteveM]

23. More problems with you post...

"My vote doesn't put holes in people's bodies."

What is the relevancy of this? A constitutional right cannot be abridged by subterfuge and confiscatory taxes. See how this works, now?

Ah, "reasonable limits" again: "A person hunting wild game does not need an ar-15 to hunt..."

You really need to catch up. The AR-15 platform is now becoming a hunting weapon, just as the Remington 742 (an auto-loader in far more powerful chamberings) was when I was a kid. And you should know by now that your notion of "need" does not pass constitutional muster. And you should know also that the Second Amendment is not about hunting (less than 20% of all gun owners).

"...and a person "defending their family" with a handgun doesn't need a 30 round magazine."

Again, you get into trouble by proscribing "needs" as "reasonable limits." Who gives a rat's ass if someone has a 30, 40, 50 round clip in defense of their family? You wanna tell someone how to defend their family? I guess so, but you will be opposed if you back legislation dictating someone elses need.

BTW, you (and others) do NOT have a right to "live in a sane society." Rights are recognized for individuals, so no "precedence" can take place.





and a person "defending their family" with a handgun doesn't need a 30 round magazine.

[AtheistCrusader]

35. Pardon me, but you have no idea what hunting entails

with absolute statements so horribly wrong as what you just stated.

.223 is perfectly legal and adequate for animals smaller than deer in every state I am aware of.

[HankyDubs]

38. you are pardoned

seems like hunters got along pretty well without an ar-15 for a couple millenia.

[X_Digger]

50. And Homo Habilis got along for 30k years without fire..

Ban matches!

[AtheistCrusader]

52. And now the AR-15 is the most popular sporting rifle in the country.

Good luck getting that mushroom cloud back into the steel casing.

They are popular for sporting purposes because they are not only adequate, but well suited to the task.

You might similarly suggest combating global warming by going back to two-cylinder Model R Fords.

[X_Digger]

49. If I had my drunk friend my car keys, I'm responsible when he plows into a school bus..

Just as everyone who voted for Boosh is responsible for the shit he did. I would assert that the ability to vote is the single most powerful (and dangerous) right that we have.

Rights are dangerous. That's in no way a reason in and of itself to limit them.

btw, rights don't have to be justified by 'need'.

[GreenStormCloud]

59. The U.S. does not have a Dept of Needs and you are not the Needs Czar. N/T

[cleanhippie]

73. You have no idea what anyones "need" is when is comes to Rights.

Your "needs" can and do vary greatly from someone elses "needs".

And my guns have never, not once, in 40 years, ever put a hole in someone's body. You can cut that nonsense out.

[HankyDubs]

17. and now you mention Iraq

well there's a great case for gun control right there. Iraq is one of the most heavily armed societies in the world, and yet...

...The citizens were not able to overthrow a totalitarian despot.

2nd amendment rhetoric takes another spin around the toilet bowl.

[shadowrider]

43. Fail

Unless you were a member of the ruling Baath Party (and therefore expected to kill enemies of the state), your access to weapons was very, very, very limited.

[HankyDubs]

63. BS

Stating something as fact does not make it a fact. Shia and Kurds had many many firearms.

[SteveM]

22. More failure...

"Taxing ammunition is not the same as a poll tax."

If you enact a confiscatory tax on ammo, the courts will use the same reason to rule such a tax unconstitutional, just as they have ruled excessive fees for parade permits unconstitutional.

You are really trying to carve out an exception because something is a "gun." It's very awkward and not credible.

[HankyDubs]

26. "confiscatory tax on ammo"

Lol at "confiscatory." Got those Frank Luntz talking points doncha!

I don't make many arguments with analogies. It's a technique used by dishonest people to make dishonest arguments. Feel free to attack me when I make such an argument.

[SteveM]

60. You read a lot of Frank Luntz? I don't...

When you get through laughing, you should read up on when taxes, fees, etc., can become unconstitutional impediments, whether it be with voting, or the Second Amendment, or with the right to assembly.

You have merely declared "analogies" as dishonest. That's bunk, and merely a short-cut to some fanciful reasoning, hot-wiring in your own mind insults about "dishonest people." I don't care if you use analogies as long as they clarify and make sense. I will gladly point out any dishonesty you engage in. Example: calling people and their arguments "dishonest" because they use analogies.

[HankyDubs]

64. you do read frank luntz

whenever you go to whatever wingnut gun site you frequent. you just don't know it. These talking points on DU all come from the NRA and/or frank luntz. I mean all this hyperventilating about the constitution is very teabaggish.

[SteveM]

71. Sorry, but I don't. Uh, what wingnut sites do I "frequent?"...

Not sure what those are, but maybe that's why I "just don't know it." So very mystical of you. You can pray to this God of Frank Luntz if you want to, but I am not familiar with his stuff.

It is a measure of how poorly you handle good argument that you stoop to declaring what I read; use "whatever wingnut gun site you frequent" (I don't know what these are unless its DailyKos or something); use "you just don't know it" (a complete departure from the mortal coil); use "NRA and/or Frank Luntz" (clearly, you are more familiar with both); and use "teabaggish" as a routine barroom slur.

Ain't got much, buddy. But that is the stuff of gun-controllers.

[AtheistCrusader]

32. We already pay an 11% excise tax on ammo, on top of sales tax.

Try again.

[HankyDubs]

40. good

no reason you shouldn't pay more. That might help defray the costs you impose on the rest of us. What I'd really be interested in seeing is a sliding tax that increases as the total ammunition purchase increases. This might help us nip the the wackjob survivalist ammo stockpilers like the Hutaree in the bud.

[AtheistCrusader]

55. lol

You are entirely too funny.

[spin]

61. What would you do about people who reload?

And why is stockpiling ammo so bad?

[SteveM]

21. You fail.

"Analogies are only used to distort the truth."

We'll remember if you ever use another analogy.

Oh, what was the issue again?

[AtheistCrusader]

33. Well, a bunch of people's votes put about a hundred thousand Iraqi's in the ground.

Think about that for a second.

[HankyDubs]

39. I already dealt with this

The votes didn't put people in the ground. The bullets and bombs did that.

But I'd like to ask again...if guns protect "are liberteas" from "duhrr gubbermint" then why was the heavily armed Iraqi society unable to rid itself of a petty tyrant like Hussein?

[Marengo]

46. No, you haven't

Had not Bush received enough votes, he would not have inhabited the White House and not been granted the power to wage war.

Do you believe a Gore administration would have taken the same action? It's impossible to predict of course, but I think it fair to say the likelihood is not.

In this perspective, yes, votes did in fact "put people in the ground".

Shall I continue on with a discussion of the contrast between the administrations of Carter and Reagan?

[AtheistCrusader]

54. You have to be willing to go to the wall to do it.

They weren't.

They nearly booted us out though. The most advanced military on the planet, and they ground us to a standstill. We didn't 'win' by killing more of them, we 'won' through political means, if you can call this meatgrinder of a war a 'win' at all.

[HankyDubs]

65. you arent willing to go to the wall

Please, all you 2nd amendment fanatics sitting in your la-z-boy are going to take on the US military? Gime me a break, willya?

I'm not sure what you have to smoke to say that a vote kills another person. Votes are ballots, they don't penetrate skin.

[AtheistCrusader]

75. I don't even own a lazy-boy chair.

If Christine Gregiore issues a legal order calling up the militia for any purpose, from sandbagging for floods, to putting down an insurrection, I will be at her disposal, as the laws stipulate.

You don't know me at all.


Tell me, do you think the German people don't bear any responsiblity for hitler's rise to power? Completely absolved of any involvement? They voted for him. They carried him into power on their shoulders. They bear some share of the responsbility.

Voting can have horrible consequences. The blood may not be on your hands, because I assume you didn't vote for bush. Like the rest of us, you probably did a lot more than just tick a ballot against him, we all talked to people, did signs, tried to get people involved (I didn't but some people doorbelled, etc).

The same is true of us law abiding gun owners. We don't have blood on our hands from this incident. Just like you don't for Bush's reign. But don't pretend NO voter has blood on their hands for what happened. Some absolutely do.

[HankyDubs]

81. history lesson

"Tell me, do you think the German people don't bear any responsiblity for hitler's rise to power? Completely absolved of any involvement? They voted for him. They carried him into power on their shoulders."

Hitler came to power in a coup. He maintained power through rigged elections. Do your homework.

[YllwFvr]

70. my guns

dont put holes in anyones heads

[SteveM]

19. Ah, the lady doth protest too much, methinks...

You realize that a cost was attached to voting? You expect that to hold up as a gun-control measure? You may have forgotten: the right to keep and bear arms is a constitutional right. It cannot be circumvented by attaching taxes and bureaucratic procedures. That is why the gun laws of NYC will collapse (bureaucratic and corrupt "may issue" statute).

I don't vote with bullets, but you seem to know something about the subject. Please fill us in.

[shadowrider]

3. Without clicking the link, it's drug and/or gang related

Betcha.

[onenote]

4. reports are that it was an accidental discharge of a gun in a backpack

Of course, the person carrying the gun/backpack may well have been a gang member or involved with drugs, but the shooting itself, if current reports are accurate, occurred when a student dropped a backpack that contained a gun and the gun discharged, wounding two students with a single round.

[slackmaster]

5. Of course the idiot who brought the gun to school is a gang member

We're talking about Gardena.

[HankyDubs]

9. ah, racism!

gun goes off in LA, must be gang members and drug dealers, right? And the racist fearmongering of the 2nd amendment crowd goes on and on!

[krispos42]

18. Odds are, non-gang members aren't packing heat in their packpacks.

Not that it couldn't happen, of course, but the smart money is on being a gang member.

[HankyDubs]

27. what if this tweenager

was just defending his fambly and excercising his cawn-stooshnil rights? Why should our tyrranical gubbermint be able to confiscate his firearm? Why shouldn't he be allowed to conceal it in his backpack? Freeeedommmmm!

[krispos42]

29. Are you asking your pet yorkie? n/t

[Euromutt]

37. Sorry, can we get that in English?

My school didn't offer Cod Hillbilly.

[HankyDubs]

41. your comment

indicates you understood me just fine.

[Euromutt]

86. I didn't say I didn't understand your words

What I don't understand is where people like get the idea that you can compensate for your inability to come up with a reasoned, persuasive argument by trying to misrepresent your rhetorical opponents as inbred, uneducated backwoods dwellers.

[slackmaster]

84. You're suggesting that the kid is a right-wing extremist?

That's an interesting way of looking at it.

[SteveM]

24. Ah, I see now...

more punking others with whom you disagree: "...the racist fearmongering of the 2nd amendment crowd goes on and on!" Please be advised that most modern gun-control laws are based on models developed in the antebellum South, during Jim Crow, and even through the Sullivan Laws of NYC. Kind of ironic you would use "racism" with that kind of baggage to tote.

[HankyDubs]

30. please be advised

"Please be advised that most modern gun-control laws are based on models developed in the antebellum South, during Jim Crow, and even through the Sullivan Laws of NYC."

Please be advised that I am not in favor of restricting weapons sales based on the race of the purchaser. See, that was easy!

[Katya Mullethov]

45. And fat toothless hillbillies ? Would you target them ?

Would you defend they and they fambly's cawn-statooshunaly reckinized rahts ?

[X_Digger]

51. Yet your proposal would have that impact.. by disproportionately impacting the poor.

How would a tax on ammo affect the affluent, white, suburban resident?

Now, how would it impact the poor, more often minority inner city resident?

[HankyDubs]

66. crocdodile tears

"how would it impact the poor, more often minority inner city resident?"

Lol, like you really give a shit. Fucking disingenuous, you already put your gun hobby above the lives of thousands of your fellow citizens every year, particularly in the cities we are affected.

I guess they wouldn't be able to buy vast amounts of ammo at any one time. Oh no!

[X_Digger]

74. So you're saying "fuck you!" to those who are actually at more risk?

Thanks for confirming it.

[HankyDubs]

82. i'm saying fuck you

to disingenuous arguments and crocodile tears.

[X_Digger]

83. And I'm saying fuck you

to those who don't recognize the true impact of their asinine ideas.

[SteveM]

57. Then you should have no problem repealing NYC's Sullivan Laws. nt

[AtheistCrusader]

34. Are there no white gangs in LA?

Look who jumped straight to 'racism' there, eh?

[HankyDubs]

42. i dunno about white gangs

but we can be perfectly certain that the original poster here who was talking about gangs and drugs wasn't picturing a white boy when he made that statement. Nice try at deflecting, though!

The gun crowd has a great deal of racist subtext and it's not a coincidence that the gun rights argument has so much appeal for the teabag klan crowd.

[shadowrider]

44. LOL, I said gang/drug related. I didn't say black/hispanic gang/drug related

Gang is a gang, white, black, hispanic or whatever. It's YOU who is injecting race.

[Marengo]

47. Perfectly certain? Are you a mind reading mentalist?

If you do not claim such talents, you owe the poster you referenced an apology.

"but we can be perfectly certain that the original poster here who was talking about gangs and drugs wasn't picturing a white boy when he made that statement."

Yep, you owe an apology.

[shadowrider]

58. I'm not waiting for one. Anti's refuse to give an inch, even when they're completely wrong n/t

[Marengo]

80. Agreed, and I have my doubt that this one

Actually intends to debate in good faith.

[HankyDubs]

67. no apology

I don't read minds, but I recognize a racist remark when I hear one. All this "who, me?" bullshit doesn't cut it. Accidental shooting in an LA school, and immediately (without reading any facts about the event) its: "drug dealers and gang bangers."

[shadowrider]

68. DID EVERYONE KNOW IF YOU SAY THE WORD "GANGS", YOU'RE RACIST?

Yes, it's true. HankyDubs said so.

[shadowrider]

69. Show me where I specified a race with gangs and I'll grant you're right

But you can't, so you ain't

[SteveM]

72. Uh, you do claim to read minds: "you just don't know it." Remember? nt

[AtheistCrusader]

76. Sorry man. Rules of civility aside, the only one making racist assumptions is you.

I suggest you reflect on that for a while.

[PavePusher]

78. Yes, and they come in a rainbow of colors.

You are the only one that made a race assumption.

[Marengo]

79. No, apparently you do not

Since you do not recognize the racism inherent in the post you authored:

HankyDubs (223 posts) Tue Jan-18-11 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. ah, racism!
Edited on Tue Jan-18-11 10:04 PM by HankyDubs
gun goes off in LA, must be gang members and drug dealers, right? And the racist fearmongering of the 2nd amendment crowd goes on and on!

Only you are creating the supposition that all gang members and drug dealers are minorities by claiming the statement "drug dealers and gang bangers" is racist.

[slackmaster]

85. It's quite obvious that you are the one who dragged race into the discussion, HD

Reply #9.

[jeepnstein]

48. Here's a good example...

They even have their own web site. Yeah, they're trying really hard to hide.

http://diablosmotorcycleclub.com/home.htm

There's a gang for about any ethnicity you can imagine.

[AtheistCrusader]

53. I live in Seattle. I have only been hassled by white kids in gangs.

Perhaps you have a different set of life experiences that led you to assume minorities with that statement, but from where i'm standing, the only racist statement in this thread was made by you, inadvertant or otherwise.

[PavePusher]

56. Where'd the racism card come flying in from?

No-one mentioned race anywhere.

Not all gang members are white. Or red. Or yellow, or black, or muave, or purple with pink friggen polka-dots.

[AtheistCrusader]

77. It's the periwinkle paisley guys you have to watch out for. HUGE chip on their shoulders.

[derby378]

7. California, which has the toughest gun laws in the nation

The state has a 79% rating from the Brady Campaign, which is the highest score they've ever given to any state. And still this happens.

Something tells me the laws aren't making California's school students any safer.

[HankyDubs]

11. this is always the dumbest argument

because gun violence hasn't ended entirely after gun control laws were passed, we should loosen restrictions...because...errr...

[Straw Man]

20. Amending that straw man...

because gun violence hasn't ended entirely after gun control laws were passed but not enforced, we should loosen concentrate on enforcement before passing new restrictions

[SteveM]

25. Kind of dumb to suggest...

that we keep laws on the books that have not been shown to be effective to control "gun violence." But symbolism is everything, no?

[HankyDubs]

28. you two should put your heads together

See the one of you is arguing that laws were simply ineffective and should be repealed, while the other one is suggesting that we aren't enforcing the current laws enough. My guess is that any enforcement measures would draw squeals from the NRA members at the gungeon anyway.

Making both of these arguments at the same time...kinda dumb.

[Straw Man]

31. Repeal?

If he meant ineffective in design, then yes, by all means repeal. If he meant ineffective in implementation (lack of enforcement), then no.

[Straw Man]

36. Kinda huh?

My guess is that any enforcement measures would draw squeals from the NRA members at the gungeon anyway.

The operative word is "guess." Would this be an educated guess? If so, please point to NRA members complaining about enforcement of laws against minors illegally possessing guns.

Making both of these arguments at the same time...kinda dumb.

Because everyone on one side of an issue is supposed to think alike? That's kinda... never mind.

[spin]

62. I am an NRA member...

I favor enforcing existing firearms law; improving the NICS background check to ensure that state records documenting those with criminal records and suffering from severe mental illness are input in a more timely manner, extending the NICS background check to ALL firearms transactions, public and private, and sentencing those caught carrying firearms illegally in a manner that stops criminals from carrying guns on a regular basis.

The ideas that I support WILL help reduce gun violence and be far more effective than bans on weapons or magazines.

I would also like to see gun safety courses taught at a high school level to teach students the basics of firearm safety.

Of course, I would also like to see our country improve education and provide good paying jobs by encouraging and providing incentives for companies to return to the U.S. to manufacturer their goods.