Gun Nut "Logic" or Whatever It Is

[MrBenchley]

A creepy look into what's rattling around the pointed skull of a gun rights supporter....from a source the RKBA crowd itself endorsed the other day.

Get your barf bags ready, folks...

"Weaver makes the point that gun control led to September 11.
I am reminded that one of the clearest examples of the acceptance so many of us have of being defenseless thanks to gun control laws was a last conversation between a passenger on Flight 97 and his wife. The flight crashed in a field in Pennsylvania following a desperate struggle between some of the passengers and the hijackers.
One of the passengers told his wife that he and some others were about to try to subdue the hijackers. Her last words to him were: "Please, wait for the authorities."
Clearly, waiting for the authorities to protect us can be hazardous to our health, but using a gun for defense may make us a criminal. Welcome to the Brave New World of Gun Control where we become criminals when we use guns to resist (or be prepared to resist) criminals."

http://www.americandaily.com/item/4337

[mars_clover]

1. In fact, it is perfect logic.

Excellent example, Mr. Benchley.

The question presented in your excerpt from the article is this:

Do you want to take responsibility for your own personal safety, or do you want to abdicate that responsibility to someone else (wait for the authorities)?

The fact is, an airplane full of unarmed people is a great place to be if you are an armed criminal bent on mayhem.

Clover

[MrBenchley]

3. More RKBA "logic" or whatever the hell it is

Tell us all, please, if this dimwit from New Hampshire didn't know he had the gun he tried to sneak on board, as he dishonestly claimed, how the hell was he going to foil a hijacking with it? "All right, Abdul, drop that box cutter or I'll wish I had brought my gun along--oh wait, lucky me, here it is in the side pocket next to the charger for the cell phone and the rubber butt plug!"

By the way, anybody surprised this asswipe with the Rambo fantasy and the popgun in his carry-on was a Republican?

http://www.seacoastonline.com/2003news/07212003/news/40569.htm

[TyroneStryker]

5. What a steaming pantload

An article from Summer of 2003?!?!?!?

Hahahahahahahahahaha

Cry me a friggin river, Bench.

[MrBenchley]

4. By the way...

the asswipe at the airport was a sterling example of responsible gun ownership..."It's not my fault! Boo hoo hoo! Please don't punish me! Boo hoo hoo! I just forgot!"

[StClone]

7. So heavily armed soldiers

That lose their lives were inadequately armed?

[beevul]

23. Is a...

fully paralyzed person armed if he has a gun on his lap?

He's no more able to use a gun than than an air traveler in flight.

Soldiers that lose their lives either had their arms removed from their possession first, or had their capacity to use them removed entirely and permanently. A soldier who is injured and incapacitated has his capacity to use his arms either diminished or removed completely.

Disarmed is the operative word.

To take away someones arms, or ability or will to use arms, is to disarm him.


That reminds me of the lesson of a fictional drill instructor in a favorite sci-fi flick...

ACE-"Sir, I don't understand! Who needs a knife in a nuke fight anyway? All you gotta do is push a button, Sir"

Zimm-"Put your hand on that wall trooper... PUT YOUR HAND ON THAT WALL!!!"

Zimm-"The enemy cannot PUSH a button if you disable his hand. MEDIC!"

[HawkerHurricane]

60. Read the same scene from the book...

Why are we learning how to fight with knives when we have nukes?
Son, would you spank a baby with a axe?
NO!
Sometimes it makes as much sense to nuke a enemy city as it does to spank a baby with an axe. War is not merely violence; it is controlled purposeful violence. Our political leaders provide the control, we provide the violence.

(From memory)

[MrBenchley]

61. NEVER underestimate the capacity of the RKBA crowd

to provide inadvertant hilarity...

"Director Paul Verhoeven uses substantial amounts of neo-fascist imagery in his movie adaptation of science-fiction author Robert Heinlein's Starship Troopers. This has led to a debate over whether this is fair to Heinlein. Is the novel Starship Troopers in some sense "fascist"? Or is Verhoeven unfairly distorting the themes of the novel on which his movie is based?...The characters the author seems to approve of, the opinions they express, and and the philosophies that they espouse are far from libertarian--and are in fact profoundly hostile to the belief that governments are established to safeguard the liberties of individuals.
So Verhoeven is fully within the bounds of authorial intention in using fascist imagery for Starship Troopers. In so doing, he is being true to the authorial persona of the novel. "

http://econ161.berkeley.edu/Comments/starship_troopers.html

"Director Paul Verhoven, whose credits run the gamut from ''Robocop'' to ''Total Recall'' on the sci-fi side and from ''Basic Instinct'' to ''Showgirls'' on the sleaze side, plays the ''Troopers''' fascism for fun and the bugs for effect."

http://www.cincypost.com/living/1997/star110797.html

"For Verhoeven, born in Amsterdam in 1938, fascism is not a subject from a history book, but something he knows first-hand from childhood experiences during the Nazi occupation. It's clear from the running satire of war-mongering TV propaganda in Starship Troopers that Verhoeven does not intend the film as a simple endorsement of gung-ho militarism. But whether his target audience of young moviegoers will draw such distinctions while watching this kinetic display of ultra-violence is a troubling question.
In Starship Troopers, you depict a fascist state. Obviously you are evoking Nazism with the gray and black shades of the uniforms.
Right, right.
...And of course, was indicated in Heinlein's book even more than we did it. On the other hand, I think a lot of elements in the film put question marks around that. That was my intention. Young kids starting at three already using guns--is that really what you want?"

http://industrycentral.net/director_interviews/PV01.HTM

Anybody want to take a crack at answering Verhoeven's question?

[MrBenchley]

8. Some more "perfect" logic....

Want to tell us how Weaver selling sawed off shotguns, missing a court date and starting a shootout with Federal marshals is in any way like Dickinson getting caught with a handgun in their luggage and blubbering like a baby?

Is the similiarity that they're both far right wing racist imbeciles with a gun fetish?

[alwynsw]

16. Go peddle that to someone who gives a crap

[MrBenchley]

9. Even MORE "perfect "logic or whatever it is...

"an airplane full of unarmed people is a great place to be if you are an armed criminal bent on mayhem."
And this by you is a rationale for letting that criminal tote a gun on the plane past security? Uh-HUH.

[TyroneStryker]

41. Hahahahahahahahahaha

Surrrrrrrrre. What criminal wouldn't want to be in a place full of unarmed people?

[MrSandman]

26. Ironic, the most gun-free environment in the world...

The cabins of commercial airliners, are used to perpetrate the largest mass murder on record.

[beevul]

2. I think I heard a gunshot...

Nevermind. It was just a backfire.

[MrBenchley]

6. Sure it wasn't cops having to defend themselves from gun owners?

[beevul]

12. Yep. I'm sure.

It was the sound of the gun-control-mobile backfiring while it tries in vain to tow everyone down the slippery slope.

Its what I have come to expect from the victim-disarmament crowd.

[MrBenchley]

13. Hahahahahaha....

Beev, you're a better argument for gun control than you are for gun rights...it's hilarious.

[beevul]

14. R i g h t...

and Barbara Lipscomb is the queen of may.

[MrBenchley]

24. Beev

if you're happy with awkward preposterous rhetoric and a thread that's phony, more power to you.

I'm happy to laugh at you.

[alwynsw]

17. Hahahahahahahahaha

[RoeBear]

10. There WAS a gun control regualtion that was enacted...

...that may have allowed 9/11 to happen.

It was passed by a republican (I believe) and made it illegal for pilots to carry sidearms on planes.

[MrBenchley]

11. There was a gun rights supporter that was appointed

in part through the efforts of the gun rights crowd, who sat around with his thumb up his ass when warnings came in. They were aided by the party that kowtows to the corrupt gun lobby, which refused to upgrade airport security.

[RoeBear]

15. I thought you've said previously...

...that gun right supporters never helped elect anyone.

[MrBenchley]

19. Nor have they yet....

Their candidate was the unelected drunk...corrupt, incompetent and pro-gun all the way.....

[alwynsw]

18. Yeah, ri-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-ght

[alwynsw]

20. Ya have to admit, box cutters aren't much threat against guns.

For that matter, guns against guns is much more even than knives and box cutters against nothing.

What? Missed shots? Cabin depressurization? All three planes crash? Let me see,several hundred certain victims either way in the air and several thousand potential victims in the various buildings targeted. Either scenario stinks, but a 5 or 6 for one trade in favor of the terrorists stinks worse.

OK. Flame away. I got broad shoulders.

[MrSandman]

21. I'm sure a hangun will depessurize the plane...

Like Goldfinger. No, wait a minute, the roof blew of a plane coming out of HA and it landed safely. Hey was that a trick post? DU Gungeon myth #3?

[Withergyld]

54. I was watching cable the other day

Discovery Channel has a show called "Myth Busters." The show this week was about firing a gun in an airplane. They went to an airplane graveyard. They pressurized a DC-9 to 8 psi to simulate the pressure differential at altitude. They then fired a handgun, shooting a hole in the fuselage. All it did was cause the plane to depressurize. After filling the bullet hole they then re pressurized it and shot a hole in one of the windows. Again the only effect was to cause a loss of cabin pressure. Next after plugging the hole in the window they had a demolitions expert place a charge around the perimeter of the window. The window blew out, but again caused no other damage except loss of cabin pressure. Last after repairing the missing window they again pressurized the cabin and detonated a shaped charge against the inside of the plane. This caused the cabin to explosively depressurize ripping of a big section of the roof and side of the cabin. I checked the show's web page, but they don't give any details of their content.

[slackmaster]

55. I love that show

Those guys are delightfully eccentric, and they get away with setting off explosives in places like the abandoned Naval base at Alameda, CA.

I particularly enjoyed the one where they made a cannon out of a tree trunk to see if they could get it to blow up. They succeeded, but it took about 5 whole pounds of black powder.

[Liberal Classic]

22. Flamebait central

Even managed to call people pinheads.

You're on a roll, Bench!

[MrBenchley]

25. Happy to be on it too

Scum like this author, Randy Weaver, or the New Hampshire idiot deserve all the abuse decent sane people can heap on them.

Of course, I realize that to gun rights people a white supremacist lowlife is some sort of holy martyr.

[Liberal Classic]

28. Luckily for you

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=announcement&id=45


Which means you may continue to flamebait and nazibait with impunity.

Carry on Flame Warrior!

[MrBenchley]

31. Even luckier for me...

I don't have to try and peddle dishonest crap from right wing loonies to make my point...in fact, I can dig that stuff up as I did here, and point out just what dishonest right wing crap it is...

[Liberal Classic]

33. You can explain how you think gun ownership is wrong

Without all the Nazi-baiting and name calling.

Try it, and the Gun Dungeon will be a much better place.

[MrBenchley]

34. Or I can go on pointing out

that the so-called gun rights movement is a whole bunch of uglier stuff hiding under a new sheet.

And if you don't like your playmates, don't come crying to me.

[Liberal Classic]

35. But not all gun owners wear sheets

That's all I'm trying to say.

For goodness sake, please leave the nazi-baiting behind. There are ugly people of all political pursuasions, left and right. We could spend all our time screaming at each other that I am a Hitlerite and you are a Stalinist but that leads to pointless flamewars. Justice/Public Safety would be a lot better place if everybody (not just you) thought about what they were going to post before they did so.

[MrBenchley]

36. Hey, not all males do either

but you won't find me screaming in rage if somebody refers to the KKK as "good ol boys".

"We could spend all our time screaming at each other that I am a Hitlerite and you are a Stalinist"
Hey, I didn't say a word about you....instead I sensibly pointed out what sorts of public figures are peddling this extremism...and in this case it's some of the ugliest around, and their feeble-minded message is riddled with nonsense. Nobody begged you to leap in here and proclaim that these are or are not representative of "all gun owners."

And if you want to say "Dianne Feinstein is a Stalinist" because I point out accurately that Randy Weaver is an ignorant racist piece of shit, be my guest...it's on a par with some of the other stuff we get on a daily basis from the RKBA crowd.

[Liberal Classic]

37. I did not say that you claimed I was a Hitlerite

What I am saying is that I wish Justice/Public Safety would be rid of all the nazi-baiting and namecalling.

As a matter of fact I do not believe Feinstein is a stalinist, and I do believe Weaver was a racist piece of shit. I have no problem saying it and believe it is true. Saying that Weaver was a racist piece of shit is totally noncontroversial in my opinion. What I wish you would stop doing is then implying anyone who isn't in favor of more gun control is in bed with them. I think this is simply baiting people, and pollutes the forum.

Nobody begged you to leap in here and proclaim that these are or are not representative of "all gun owners."

Nazis and racists are absolutely not representative of all gun owners and people who support gun ownership. It is not true. Neither is it true that people who support gun control or oppose gun ownership are stalinists or left-wing nazis of some sort. I don't think Feinstein is a bad person, and I don't think you are either. I might not agree with everything you do, but there are some things where we're of like mind (such as the prohibition aka drug war) and so we need to realize we're not each other's enemy.

I just wish we could get away from such banal discussions. They're childish and pollute the forum. Personally, I believe the drug war is a much more important issue than gun control, but it seems we're always tilting at the gun control windmill.

Please for goodness sake stop nazi-baiting. It sucks. J/PS would be a better place without it.

[MrBenchley]

38. Hahahahahaha

"Nazis and racists are absolutely not representative of all gun owners and people who support gun ownership. It is not true."
Yeah, we can tell from all the crap posted here daily by the RKBA crowd from Newsmax, the NRA and the like. Hell, another bit of idiotic bilge from this site was posted by a member of the RKBA crowd as an article to be taken seriously in support of his position. Of course it was just a coincidence that the site happened to have a blatantly racist piece on its front page at the same time.

"we're not each other's enemy"
Jeeze, you don't see gun control folks attacking just about every Democrat you ever heard of (like comparing Clark to Himmler) or cheerleading for Republican stat-padding.

[Liberal Classic]

39. That is what I get for making a serious appeal

A slap on the face. Ha-ha indeed. Comparing Clarke to Himmler is as invalid as comparing Bush to Hitler. It is high-minded bullshit that distracts from real issues. If someone posts some crap from Newsmax or otherwise writes something you don't like, then attack the position. How hard is that? It's not.

Sometimes I think you want flame threads where you can call people nazi-lovers.

[MrBenchley]

40. And sometimes I think

the RKBA crowd wants us not to notice even in the slightest the sorts of disgraceful specimens who peddle this "gun rights" crap in public, or notice that they're dredging crap out of right wing cesspools, or keep still while they attack every Democrat anyone's ever heard of.

"Comparing Clarke to Himmler is as invalid as comparing Bush to Hitler. "
For one thing, Hitler was an eloquent speaker. For another Hitler SERVED in a war and WON his election.

[slackmaster]

42. Now there's a quotable quote for you

"For one thing, Hitler was an eloquent speaker. For another Hitler SERVED in a war and WON his election."

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[Liberal Classic]

43. Benchley channelling Schwarzenegger?

Will wonders never cease.

:)

[MrBenchley]

44. More like

Benchley repeating a common liberal punchline. Maybe the RKBA crowd should look at something besides Newsmax once in a fucking while.

[Liberal Classic]

45. Please don't take it personally

I did put a smiley in there to show I was poking fun at you. :)

[MrBenchley]

46. I didn't take it personally...

It gave me an excuse to show off some of my favorite art.

[Liberal Classic]

47. Oh, okay. No worries then.

I tried loading the graphics from Bartcop, but they didn't load. I'll click on them later.

Just trying to make nice. Later, Benchley.

[slackmaster]

49. Personally I don't care for art that depicts Nazi flags

Even if it's meant as satire.

To each his own.

:shrug:

[CO Liberal]

50. So I Guess You Have to Divert Your Eyes A Lot.....

...at gun shows.

:-)

[slackmaster]

51. I know you mean no harm but I have to respond to that very seriously

I'll be going to the Crossroads of the West gun show in Del Mar, CA on Saturday morning. If it's anything like every show I've been to in the last 15 years, out of more than 1,000 tables there will be approximately one vendor selling genuine Third Reich poker chips, swizzle sticks, and militaria along with Soviet, East German, French, British, etc. stuff from World War II.

If you want to see some real RW loonies the San Diego County Fair (also held in Del Mar) is a better choice. There are always a few neo-Nazi groups and the John Birch Society handing out literature, unlike at the gun show where they aren't allowed.

PROHIBITED ITEMS:
1. Pornographic materials, drug paraphernalia, items
glorifying Nazism, items offensive to the general public.
2. Loaded firearms
3. Loose rounds of ammunition
4. Black Powder
5. Alcoholic beverages, unless sold by the concessionaire
6. Tobacco Products
7. No raffles

See http://www.crossroadsgunshows.com/generalinformation.htm

The only political groups you see at gun shows are the NRA, GOA, JPFO, etc. plus the Republican and Libertarian Parties. Conspicuously absent is anyone pushing Democratic Party registration, though on occasion a pro-gun Democratic candidate for statewide office will have a table.

[Liberal Classic]

52. The last big peace march in my town

There was one small group wearing black bandanas shouting "kill the capitalists" "kill bankers" and the like.

Is it right to tar everybody on the left because of the actions of a small number of mancontents? No, of course not. Most of the people at the rallies I go two are good progressive folks. You can't help it if there are going to be a few cranks.

[slackmaster]

53. Freedom to make an ass of yourself in public is a cornerstone of Democracy

One of the greatest things about the USA is that we tolerate fools being themselves.

[MrBenchley]

56. The last peace march in my area

was pretty much ordinary people....and not a one of them dressed up like a Nazi or waved a popgun around.

It wasn't led by Ted Nugent and Larry Pratt either....or anyone remotely like them. And people didn't have to try to quote from the Washington Times and Newsmax to try to make the case for peace.

[Liberal Classic]

57. I guess we're agreeing because

The vast majority of people in the march were normal folks, and I do not condemn the whole by a few malcontents.

[MrBenchley]

58. Compare that to the gun rights crowd

which, like the pretty little surrey, has the fringe on the top.

Asswipes like Nugent and Pratt aren't at the edge of the gun rights crowd muttering to themselves. They're leading the parade which is happily marching behind them chanting their dishonest gibberish at the top of their lungs.

[slackmaster]

59. I'm not sure what parade you are referring to, Bench

But neither Nugent nor Pratt are in the one I'm marching in.

[MrBenchley]

27. So are you going to explain

how somebody could foil a hijacking with a gun they don't know they have? Maybe it falls out of their carry-on and somebody (not the hijacker, one hopes) picks it up?

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MrBenchley]

30. What better to hook the rancid RKBA crowd?

"get something fresh and creative"
You mean like another "gun rights" lie about the UK bloodbath?

[alwynsw]

32. What a pantload

Who is always the first to scream bloodbath every time the Brits are mentioned? Not me!

[MrBenchley]

48. Yeah and the Chimp claims because he didn't say "imminent"

he didn't mean Iraq was supposed to be an imminent threat when he banged the war drums and shrieked "they could attack in 15 minutes"....