Do the gun safety classes talked about here tell people when *not* to shoot?

[CreekDog]

about making sound judgment calls, about when carrying a gun is inappropriate, about what to think about when getting ready to use a gun?

and if it's covered at all, how comprehensive is it? how much time is spent on it?

[shadowrider]

1. Take one and find out. They aren't much, $80 to $120 or so

You need not own a weapon to take the class. That'll clear up any misconceptions you may have.

[CreekDog]

8. I need to spend money taking a class when all I have is a simple question?

uh.

and nevermind that i decided some time ago not to own a gun at this time.

[shadowrider]

9. Ask if you can simply audit the class at no charge. If one place won't let you do that

keep trying. You'll find someone who will.

Believe me, gun owners and instructors WANT people to become educated on the subject.

[oneshooter]

31. In California you do not need to take a class.

The local Sheriff decides who does, and does not get a permit to Concealed carry.
No class.
No shooting test.
No background check.

All it takes is a big cash contribution to his/her re-election fund.

Ya might take a few minutes to look up the law. Google is your friend.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[sharesunited]

2. Those qualitative factors are covered more specifically in LEO training.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_safety

[dmallind]

5. BS - LEO trainig on guns is laughable compared to typical enthusiast training. nt

[shadowrider]

7. My instructor is also a LEO instructor. I received the exact training they do

minus the 1500 shot range time. I only had to do 200.

[jeepnstein]

20. Not true.

We learned a great deal about how to shoot, but very little about when. Of course we discussed the force continuum but that was kind of an abstract notion. Anyone who's ever been through an academy would agree. Unless you attend some super duper LEO Ninja camp you're going to learn how to keep it on target and not blow your foot off accidentally.

I've had one training session in a simulator for active shooter response. The right answer was to shoot anything that presents a weapon towards you.

The police have no duty to protect anyone. If you are injured or killed by a criminal, it's a shame but it's not their problem. They'll try to catch the guy as best they can but don't expect any heroic measures.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

3. I took a concealed carry class in MI

Most of the material was about conditions that do not call for shooting, or even brandishing. And then it was also covered in the book that was handed out, if anybody cared to read it.

There was more time spent on when to shoot, when not to shoot, etc, than was spent on actual shooting or general gun handling.

:hi:

[old mark]

4. Of course! Gun owners are not the blood crazed morons you anti's love to picture us as.

The self denecse classes will spend a lot of time on what is appropriate and when not to shoot. Carrying a firearm does not make a person a police officer or some sort of super hero, merely a person who is better capable of defending life and family should it ever become necessary.

Most of us who have licenses to carry have put a great deal of thought and concern into the decision. I really resent the attempts to make us into criminals for attempting to be able to defend ourselves.


mark

[CreekDog]

21. i don't think you're blood crazed morons -and if you don't like the idea that i'm stereotyping you

don't do it to me.

[dmallind]

6. About 90% of the content of any of the several CCW classes I have taken and audited. NT

[DonP]

10. The basic courses cover some of that

The CCW courses focus on it heavily. There are usually several sections on the legal and moral issues involving the use of a firearm. I have a friend that did Ayooobs class and said he spent about 75% of his class on the legal repercussions of shooting or displaying. Like the man said, "Remember, every bullet you fire has a lawyer attached to it."

Not to demean the cops, but most CCW people are better informed than their local cops on the specific laws governing firearm use in their state. They certainly spend more time practicing at the range. My retired Cop BIL went twice a year, once to practice and once to qualify. Then he'd go back to try and qualify again after going out with me for a weekend session or two. I go pretty much every two weeks or so depending on the weather.

[RamboLiberal]

18. Ayoobs is one of the classes I'd love to take

The man is a wealth of information on police & civilian self-defense shootings, law, etc.

I make it a point of reading articles by him in Concealed Carry and other mags each month as well as watching his info on Personal Defense TV.

[benEzra]

11. Yes.

Here is the material from NC's CHL class, straight from the state-approved curriculum. The general criteria that must be met for a homicide to be ruled justifiable are very similar in every state.

Steve Johnson, Concealed Carry Handgun Training, North Carolina Justice Academy, 1995, pp. 3-4.

(1) Justified Self-Defense

A citizen is legally justified in using deadly force against another if and only if:

(a) The citizen actually believes deadly force is necessary to prevent an imminent threat of death, great bodily harm, or sexual assault, AND

(b) The facts and circumstances prompting that belief would cause a person of ordinary firmness to believe deadly force WAS necessary to prevent an imminent threat of death, great bodily harm, or sexual assault, AND

(c) The citizen using deadly force was not an instigator or aggressor who voluntarily provoked, entered, or continued the conflict leading to deadly force, AND

(d) Force used was not excessive -- greater than reasonably needed to overcome the threat posed by a hostile aggressor."

Note that ALL FOUR conditions must generally be met in order for a shooting to be ruled justifiable. Most of the class is devoted to reinforcing that, going through various scenarios and applying it. There is also discussion about places that are off-limits to carry, no drinking while carrying, how to notify LEO's you're carrying, etc.

The NC class is 8 hours, which is more than enough time to cover the material multiple times. This is not an "introduction to shooting" class, and most of the people who attend have years of prior firearm experience.

[slackmaster]

12. Yes, absolutely.

and if it's covered at all, how comprehensive is it? how much time is spent on it?

Legal and moral aspects of the use of deadly force typically take up about half of the classroom instruction time.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

13. I'd say my 2-Day class had the following subject breakdown and focus:

50% Laws and regulations and where the laws apply (what you can/cant do and where you can be).
30% Stories/teachings guiding on identifying proper threats and responses (best ways to respond).
10% Practicing situational awareness along with gun concealment & retention.
10% Products which aid and are reccomended and/or illegal or a bad idea (general "gear" talk).
20% Live fire shooting or testing of material.

That's right... 120% :smoke:
What up! :headbang:

[Poll_Blind]

14. In the gun safety class I took, the instructor flavored everything we were learning about...

...gun safety with the ramifications of actually using or carrying a firearm. Not to mention a large part of the discussion at the beginning of the course involved discussion by each of the participants about why they were taking the course and what it meant to them.

There was only one person in the 10-15 or so of us, a younger guy, who basically stated that he didn't feel safe and that he wanted to take this gun course, and own a gun eventually (I don't think he owned one at the time but rented from the range the course was being held at) was because he feared for his safety and he wanted to know "Under what cirucmstances I could shoot someone who was threatening me."

Now, the young guy wasn't crazy or anything. In fact, for a lot of younger males (IMO) this is not a particularly uncommon view of gun ownership, especially if they haven't used a gun before, or seen what it does to people or any of that. Because, in that mindset, the gun is going to absolutely solve the problem and they just need to know how out of hand the problem is supposed to get before they are justified in absolutely, quickly using a gun to solve that problem.

Now, the instructor had been in the military and had been involved in security jobs (involving carrying a gun, usually concealed) for most of his career. He did not strike me as anything but a very responsible person, btw. Anyway, at that moment the instructor sort of gently stopped the class and he had a discussion with that young man (and all of us, but in a sort of peripheral sense) and I will now paraphrase what he said:

"You may look at using a gun in self defense like that but I will let you know something: Even if you are absolutely justified in using a gun as an absolute last resort in saving your life there is no 'easy' way out after you pull that trigger. Several years ago, I was in a situation where I was in danger of being killed outright by a person, who had a previous criminal history involving violence and, in an act of desperation and not being able to get away from this person during the attack, I shot them. There were many other witnesses who were present, saw the attack, and also believed they were about to be killed as well. However, once you pull that gun out, and especially once you pull that trigger, your life will be changed forever and you need to understand that. Even in situations where you are absolutely, beyond a shadow of a doubt, going to be killed or seriously injured by someone, drawing and firing your gun does not prevent a chunk of your life from being destroyed. It only, if you're lucky, prevents you from being killed. But that is just the beginning of the hell you have to go through because even if the police determine that you were absolutely justified in your use of that firearm to save your life, and maybe the lives of others, you are likely to be sued, as I was, by a family member of that attacker. Again, even if you are completely justified in that defensive shooting. Don't ever think it's an easy way out of anything. The only thing it does is prevent you from dying. The use of that firearm will change your life forever and leave a mark on your mind that will not wear off. You will be traumatized by it. Again, even if you are absolutely justified, you will go through hell, sometimes for years, before you can get on with your life again.

That's the best case scenario for the situation you describe."

It was much more nuanced than that, but you get the picture. And so did the young man, by the way. Even after that, everything he taught us was flavored by that moment early-on during the class. I felt he was an excellent instructor.

Years ago in my town, there was a young guy who owned a gun. A .22, and he had a concealed weapon license for it, if I recall. He was at a bar, minding his own business, and a group of drunk guys started giving him shit. He left the bar to get out of the situation and they followed him closely, insulting him. From what I recall he walked about 10 blocks like this trying to get away from them until he couldn't take it any longer and drew his gun in the belief that it would make them go away. It didn't. People have different reactions to things like that but it almost always makes the situation worse not better. And it got worse. He eventually shot one of the harassers in the leg, not in an attempt to kill him but in some sense trying to stop the harassment.

They immediately called the cops and he's in prison now. Nobody I knew, just read the story in the paper and followed it for a bit.

The best thing a gun can ever do for you is prevent you from being killed. It doesn't prevent anything else.

PB

[GreenStormCloud]

15. Depends upon the state. Some are better than others.

Self-defense law is not complicated. A few hours are all that are needed.

There are state laws about where guns may or may not be carried. If it is legal to carry a gun, I carry it.

Texas also spends some time on conflict de-escalation.

Texas annually publishes details statistics on our population of CHL holders. As a group, we are safer than the police. Our arrest rate, per capita, is a fraction of that of the general public.

[Statistical]

16. A lot depends on the state but generally speaking the classes cover

a) firearm safety
b) firearm basics
c) laws related to firearms, self defense, and conceal carry (and/or carry).

If you are more interested just in firearms basics, use, safety and not conceal carry the NRA offers some of the best "basic" firearm courses.

[spin]

17. In the Tampa Bay area of Florida there is a prosecuting attorney ...

who teaches concealed weapons classes.

I have heard several of his students mention how good his class was. They also mentioning that he pointed out to them that he would teach them when using a firearm for self defense is legal in Florida and prosecute them vigorously if they failed to follow the law.

[RamboLiberal]

19. If it concerns self-defense and the law - then Yes

And IMHO if you are going to be a gun owner for self defense and your state doesn't mandate the training (my state of PA doesn't) then it should be your responsibility to get that education from a reputable instructor or school.

[X_Digger]

22. Would you actually accept anyone saying 'yes'?

From reading your previous posts on the subject, I don't think any answer will be sufficient.

[shadowrider]

24. Maybe he'll be attending a CCW class any time now

:shrug:

[SteveM]

23. Good question. I'm sure this varies from state-to-state...

Fortunately, there are few instances where CCW permit holders have used their firearms irresponsibility. Even if the Gifford shooting, the CCW-holder who arrived on the scene to assist in restraining the shooter did not draw his weapon, but assessed the situation correctly. I really don't know of an instance where a CCW-holder has shot the "wrong" person, but there may be some.

[Kennah]

26. I too don't know of even a single instance where a CCW holder shot the wrong person

There are some cases of CCW holders committing crimes, but they are quite rare indeed.

I know of just one case where a CCW holder was shot and seriously injured while trying to intervene.

Dan McKown
Tacoma, Washington
2005

I also know of just one case where a CCW holder was killed while trying to intervene.

Mark Wilson
Tyler, Texas
2005

I think both made some very bad tactical decisions, but both were credited with saving lives or reducing injuries.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

27. *purposefully*

Hasn't there been a recent case or two where a dropped concealed weapon fired and struck someone?

[Kennah]

28. True, but ...

... I think those correctly belong in another column of culpability.

The "purposefully" qualification is, IMHO, instances were the gun carrier took aim and fired intentionally at person X but unintentionally struck person Y.

[Kennah]

25. It all depends upon the class

Just like anything else, classes run the gamut.

I've been through NRA training courses, and I used to be an NRA certified firearms instructor. I took the classes to become an NRA training counselor (the people who certify NRA instructors), but I let my certification lapse because between work and family I didn't have the time to devote to it that I thought I should. I did not like telling people who called me, sorry, I wasn't currently teaching but call this other guy I know.

In the advanced training category, I did an 8 hour class with Cathy Schlegel, about 100 hours of training at the Firearms Academy of Seattle (FAS), a class with the late Jim Cirillo, and Judicious Use of Deadly Force (JUDF) with Mas Ayoob.

The best answer on the use of deadly force comes from Mas Ayoob. American laws condone the use of deadly force in the face of an immediate and otherwise unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm to the innocent.

Mas absolutely pounds on this, and with the stuff he discusses it will literally disturb your sleep that night and wake you up in the middle of the night with a start--at least that was my experience.

At FAS, particularly during Tactical Handgun (formerly FAS-3) and Advanced Tactical Handgun (formerly FAS-5), when to shoot or not shoot gets dumped all over you like a bucket of slime.

There is a perception, among some, that these "go fast" schools are just incitement to kill; however, it's very much been my experience in talking with anyone who's done any sort of advanced firearms training that after their training they are now far less likely to use deadly force than before their training--also less likely to use deadly force than would the average person.

[one-eyed fat man]

29. Part of the required training in Kentucky

This is a quick rundown of the laws where I live. In addition to the permit for ordinary citizens, Kentucky has a special judicial license for judges and prosecutors. There is also a special permite for retired police and peace officers.

Most of the class is devoted to explaining the state laws in great detail. Emphasis is on two major areas:

Where and when a concealed weapons permit holder may carry a weapon.

When the use of deadly force is justified and, equally important, when it is not.

There is additional training on firearms safety, the application and renewal process. Qualification firing is done on the range.

The requirements and state laws vary. Almost every state which permits citizens to carry concealed weapons has a website. You would be best served by looking at your individual state.

Kentucky State Police

[Jenoch]

30. I know the required gun training courses

in Minnesota cover this topic extensively. I haven't taken the course yet but I have heard that some people finish the course, get the permit and then rarely carry a concealed gun because they feel the risk to them and the responsibility is too high for them.