School Locked Down After Gun Spotted

[Superfly]

<snip>

A Sacramento school was put into lockdown mode Wednesday after a teacher spotted a student with a gun, according to authorities.

<snip>

....after a teacher reported seeing a male student holding a gun while standing over a female student, officials said.

<snip>

"We have not located the alleged gun. We're not certain or sure there is a gun. But we want to obviously make sure there is no gun outstanding," said Sacramento Police Department spokesman Justin Risley.

<snip>

The teacher who said she spotted the weapon is a retired Stockton police officer. She said she is certain she saw a gun.

The male student was charged with having a gun on school property.

<snip>

Link

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Step 1) Be certain somebody had a gun
Step 2) Call the cops and conduct search for said gun
Step 3) Do not find gun and declare you "are not sure" if there even was a gun
Step 4) Lacking any evidence other than somebody who is "certain" there was a gun, charge student anyways.

Well, there goes the 4th amendment, now....

[MrBenchley]

1. DUPE

[demsrule4life]

2. I think this belongs in the

there wasn't a gun in the news thread.

[CO Liberal]

3. From The Article You Linked

A few more significant excerpts:

Authorities said they believe the student who allegedly had the weapon may have handed it off to another student, who took it off campus.

<snip>

The teacher who said she spotted the weapon is a retired Stockton police officer. She said she is certain she saw a gun.

Under the circumstances, I'd tend to believe the ex-cop teacher concerning what she saw.

[Superfly]

4. Under the circumstances...

believing a cop/teacher/circus performer/astronaut whatever is a moot point. There is no evidence, but a charge was levelled nonetheless. Is not even the 4th amendment safe from the anti-RKBA crowd?

[demsrule4life]

5. She could of spent 20 years in

personnel.

[Superfly]

6. She could have also been fired and then

taken up teaching.

[CO Liberal]

10. The She Would NOT Have Been a "Retired" Police Officer

She would be a FORMER ploice officer.

Is there no limit to how far you pro-gunners will go to defend someone who improperly uses a gun? Thst is almost as bad as the people who are trying to "defend" Kobe Bryant by smearing his accuser.

[Superfly]

11. Ever hear of "forced retirement"?

....

Still, and let me say it one more time....THERE WAS NO EVIDENCE BUT A PERSON WAS CHARGED ANYWAYS

[CO Liberal]

7. Then She Wouldn't Have Been A Police Officer

She would have been a personnel clerk.

[Superfly]

9. No...a lot of cops are pushing papers

and are stuck behind desks most their careers.

[MrBenchley]

8. Guess we're supposed to wait for ANOTHER school shooting

and then listen to the RKBA crowd hoot that NOTHING could have been done to prevent it.

[slackmaster]

13. It's going to be an interesting trial if the case ever gets that far

The defense could introduce reasonable doubt by suggesting the object might have been a toy or replica rather than a functional firearm.

[Superfly]

16. Or any other object

that may look like a gun in silhouette.

[Wickerman]

12. If my kids were at that school I would want to make sure

that anyone using a weapon of any type against another student would receive punishment. It seems like, for collaboration, you could ask the student who was stood over by the charged student what, if any weapon was involved.

[Superfly]

14. But, they are "not even sure"

if there even was a gun. Yet, charges were levelled, despite a lack of evidence and only the hearsay of one person.

Where is the girl this kid was "standing over" with the gun? Why hasn't she said anything?

[CO Liberal]

19. Maybe They're Trying to Protect Her Identity

To prevent a few ill-advised pro-gunners from doing to her what a few Kobe Bryant fans have done to his accuser??

[Superfly]

21. Yeah....riiiiiiiiiiiight....

Maybe it's because this case is completely trumped up on the word of an ex-cop. Not to worry, though, it will be dismissed, and rightly so.

[MrBenchley]

30. You'll notice the RKBA crowd leaped to smear the teacher

to protect the sacred gun....

[DonP]

26. I guess pre-emptive strikes are OK if you agree with the POV?

It seems like it's OK to actually arrest and charge someone based on questionable intelligence, e.g "we're not sure there was a gun".

Some of these anti folks would fit right into the Bush administration.

You don't need any real evidence, you just need someone to say they think they saw something, guns, WMD what's the difference. As long as someone you want to believe says so, it must be true

Interesting philosophy..

[CO Liberal]

15. "Better Be Safe Than Sorry"

Definitely comes into play here. But too many pro-gunners on this board are making excuses and standing up for the kid who brandished the gun, and to me that's just WRONG!!!!!

[Superfly]

17. And "Innocent before guilty"

does not come into play.

"brandished the gun"

WHAT GUN????

[CO Liberal]

20. And "An Armed Society Is a Polite Society"

NOT!!!!!!

[demsrule4life]

22. There really are people out there that dont

mind giving up thier rights if they think they might feel safer. I really dont understand why they cry about Ashcroft all the time.

[Superfly]

23. And I really wonder

if there is one backbone in the entire anti-RKBA crowd.

[demsrule4life]

38. I've also noticked that none of them disagree with what I said

[MrBenchley]

39. You mean that was supposed to be a SERIOUS statement, dems?

Tell us again how Ed Asner is a communist....

[slackmaster]

18. I don't believe anyone is standing up for the alleged brandisher

If there is sufficient evidence to charge him with unlawful possession of a weapon then he deserves to be charged.

It sounds like the evidence against him is all circumstantial, certainly a lot weaker than it would have been if someone had seized the alleged weapon.

[demsrule4life]

24. How many people have cops shot because they saw a gun

and it turned out to be a cell phone?

[slackmaster]

28. Here in San Diego they've dropped that pretense

The cops here shoot people in broad daylight for brandishing trowels, sticks, canes, etc.

[Columbia]

40. You're in SD?

Yeah they are pretty notorious for that down there.

I'm in LA, maybe we can start up a DU shooting club? Anyone else in the Socal area?

[beevul]

50. Yuman being here

N/T

[el_gato]

25. you don't even know if a gun was brandished yet you state it as fact

please be more honest CO

[CO Liberal]

27. And The Pro-Gunners Are Acting Like There Was No Gun

Unlike far too many people on your side, I tend to believe police officers. Even retired ones.

Honestly.

[Superfly]

29. Because, when, in the ABSENCE OF EVIDENCE

INNOCENCE IS PRESUMED. Not automatic guilt....

[CO Liberal]

31. Ever Hear of "Circumstantial Evidence"???

I say let the courts sort this out.

[slackmaster]

33. There you go

Let the criminal justice system do its job.

I think and hope we can all agree on that.

[Superfly]

35. Yeah, but in the mean time...

this kid will be locked up, (depending on whether bail is granted or not) being deprived schooling.

[slackmaster]

The charges will probably be dropped

It sounds like the kid was intimidating a female student whether he had a gun or not. The school system should discipline him for that whatever happens with the criminal charges.

[Superfly]

34. Now, the word of one person is "circumstantial evidence"?

Ever see the Simpson's episode where Bart and Lisa thought Ned Flanders murdered his wife?

[slackmaster]

32. No, that's not how we're acting

We're saying we don't know whether or not there was actually a gun.

I'm trying to be "fair and balanced" in my reaction to the story. How about you, CO?

Unlike far too many people on your side, I tend to believe police officers. Even retired ones.

It's not a matter of believing cops or not. People make mistakes all the time. Some replica and toy guns look so much like real ones that even an expert cannot tell without handling the object or at least getting a very close look.

[alwynsw]

37. I agree on the kids' safety

But an arrest with no evidence found after an search? Far too totalitarian for my taste. It's not as though it was a crowded mall or street where the kid could dispose of a weapon fairly easily.

Suspension until the case is resolved is a possibility so long as the kid is allowed to continue his studies via distance learning of some sort, but even that is over the top given that the alleged gun wasn't found.

[MrSandman]

42. Just send him to Gitmo

[alwynsw]

36. Another example of the fine education one receives in Kalifornistan

What's next - conceptual sports? It seems that despite the laws of nature and the laws of man simple belief in a thing makes it true in California. Of course, the belief needs to be contrary to common sense and good judgement to hold water.

ARREST FEINSTEIN! I SAW HER WITH A GUN! (Except in this case, it was a weapon banned in California, she was holding it in California, and there are photos to back it up.) I guess it depends on your motive. Illegal is OK if you're making a point in favor of restriction of freedom.

Pretty soon, we won't have to worry about that peasky Bill of Rights in California. The first is diminished by PC gone wild. The 2nd is being tortured beyond recognition. Now the 4th is being ignored.

Glad I don't live there. I'm just sorry the kiddo is at Pendleton instead of a naval base in Virginia. That's a real risk when you're in the Navy. You are likely to spend a fair part of your career in California. I store his "legal everywhere but California" firearms here.

[Columbia]

41. Sniff sniff...

California stinks!

Too bad I live there... :cry:

[Paladin]

43. Mighty Easy To Shoot Your Mouths Off.......

....criticizing school personnel, when none of your children, thankfully, were involved. The depth that the RKBA crowd will sink to in order to defend a Guns For Everybody, Anywhere, Anyplace position is really depressing.....

[slackmaster]

44. You're right - We forgot to think about The Children

Hey, I personally know what it's like to have a child in school and get a phone call from the school saying it's locked down because of a possible dangerous situation.

...The depth that the RKBA crowd will sink to in order to defend a Guns For Everybody, Anywhere, Anyplace position is really depressing.....

Sorry to hear about your down mood Paladin, but frankly I don't see how anything in this thread suggests support the supposed GFEAA position. I certainly don't support kids having guns, taking them to school, or using them to intimidate innocent people.

Maybe that's the difference between the gun-grabber mentality and the pro-RKBA folks. One side focuses on objects, the other on behavior.

[Paladin]

48. I'll Tell You The Difference......

....between the "gun grabbers" and the RKBA types, Slack. We "gun grabbers" feel that the school teacher in this incident should be commended for her actions; you RKBAers wasted no time in trashing her. You spoke the truth, if inadvertently: you guys aren't thinking about the children, you're thinking about objects---your precious guns. When the next school slaughter happens in this country, be it tomorrow, next week or a little further down the road, I hope you derive great comfort from the fact that the perpetrators' 4th Amendment rights weren't jeopardized by some alert school official.

[Superfly]

49. What gun?

Where is this gun you speak of?

[alwynsw]

55. She should be commended for ther actions.

the issue I have is with the police and school administration. No gun - no gun crime. No suspension for possessing a nonexistant gun.

[MrSandman]

45. Possession of a gun at school was not defended...

The lack of 4th amendment protections was.

BTW,
The last time there was a lockdown at my kid's school, it was handled in such a way that if there were a gun, there was maximum exposure of other students to any shooting. At least they did not arrest the perp...administrative punishment.

[MrBenchley]

46. Appalling, isn't it?

[Superfly]

47. Involved in what?

All I see is a teacher accusing a kid of something without evidence to back up that accusation.

Oh, but we should shoot first and ask questions later, I suppose. As one poster in this thread put it...better safe than sorry.

:puke:

[alwynsw]

51. The criticism is pointed at the arrest of the kid after the

teacher's claim was found to be without merit. She said she saw a gun, no gun was found. She apparently refuses to admit that she might have been wrong, therefore the kid pays for her stubbornness. There's no shame in admitting an error.

[alwynsw]

52. Let's try this again

No one is finding fault with the school's actions. No one is defending any firearms. No one is claiming that the teacher did not act properly.

Several are claiming that the student is being held without cause. The article says that he was charged with possessing a firearm on school property. An alleged gun was seen, reported, searched for, and NOT found. No evidence for the charges except for one eyewitness.

Go ask any experienced cop or trial attorney what eyewitness testimony from a single source is worth. People make mistakes.

If a gun is found and linked to the incident, prosecute the kid.

There'sone very interesting thing missing in the article. What did the alleged victim see?

[demsrule4life]

53. Who are you trying to kid?

nobody wants the truth.

[alwynsw]

54. What was I thinking?

The truth is secondary to the effort. In this case, demonizing anything firearms related.

[alwynsw]

56. My prediction for this case:

No gun will be found. The student will be exonerted on the gun charge, but villified for an "assault". The teacher will accept the kudos of the PD and school board and steadfastly claim to have seen a gun. The kid will be under a microscope for the remainder of his school days - likely after his parents transfer him to another district to escape his branding.

An enterprising attorney steps in, sues the teacher, school, school district, and PD for several millions of dollars. The case is won by the kid. The attorney gets richer, the kid gets rich(er) and becomes a complete slacker because few teenagers have a clue of what to do with a couple million dollars. The school district cuts programs and positions because of the shortfall caused by the lawsuit. The teacher who made the erroneous report keeps her job, likely moving into administration where she can "reall do some good."

Everybody loses now and continues to lose for the foreseeable future because the PD made an arrest and the administration made a suspension based upon a nonexistent gun.

If the alleged gun is found: kid goes to jail. All is well.

I believe that the school district and the PD are being too hasty. Suspending and arresting the kid for an, as yet nonexistent crime, is simply wrong.

[MrSandman]

57. Not everybody loses...

Guns have been further villified. They are either a threat to the physical safety(if gun is found) or the cause of an underfunded school district(if gun not found.)

[alwynsw]

58. Good point. Either way, the anti's score.

It's either "Look we found it!" or "We wouldn't have had this incident had an effective ban been in place."

Great spin op for the antis either way.

[MrBenchley]

59. Yup, that's why we started this thread

and slandered the teacher and dragged the issue into another thread...oh, wait, that was the RKBA crowd doing all that spinning.

[slackmaster]

60. None of the posts here come anywhere near slandering the teacher

Give us a fucking break, MrBenchley.

[alwynsw]

61. Go peddle that pantload to someone who will believe it.

Her judgement and background have been speculated upon. No more. No less.

Care to link to one of those slanderous comments?

[MrBenchley]

66. Hahahahahahaha.....

"Under the circumstances...believing a cop/teacher/circus performer/astronaut ...She could have also been fired and then taken up teaching....Ever hear of "forced retirement"?...Yet, charges were levelled, despite a lack of evidence and only the hearsay of one person....Maybe it's because this case is completely trumped up on the word of an ex-cop.....How many people have cops shot because they saw a gun and it turned out to be a cell phone?...All I see is a teacher accusing a kid of something without evidence...."

[slackmaster]

68. The joke's on you, MrBenchley

I've heard crow isn't too bad if you use enough Tabasco sauce.

[demsrule4life]

62. Update

Victim says no gun. No gun found yet.

http://www.kxtv10.com/storyfull.asp?id=6296

[slackmaster]

63. Poor retired cop teacher must have had a flashback

Or maybe the victim is covering her crummy boyfriend's ass.

We may never know the actual truth, but if the best possible witness isn't saying she saw a gun there will be no chance of an effective prosecution.

On edit: <insert sound of crickets chirping>

[1a2b3c]

64. but but but

If the EX-cop said there was a gun it must be true.

[MrSandman]

65. Wasn't he convicted...

yesterrday?

[1a2b3c]

67. guilty until proven innocent

or so the gun-grabbers say.

[Paladin]

69. Just Suppose.......

....that this school had implemented a program near and dear to all you RKBAers' hearts: arming school personnel to deal with threats to students. This teacher that you Gun Huggers are vilifying might have ended up shooting and killing this kid, if she's really the kind of loser you're portraying her as. How would you feel about her then? I suspect she'd be on the cover of next month's "American Rifleman" magazine, and Ted Nugent would write another off-key rock anthem in her honor. And whether or not the kid was armed, or whether his 4th Amendment rights were harmed, wouldn't make fuck-all difference to you guys.....

[MrBenchley]

70. Got it in one

Great post.

[slackmaster]

73. I'd give it a 6 out of 10 as a rant

Zero as a valid response to anything that was actually posted previously in the thread.

[demsrule4life]

74. I don't think I have ever seen a valid response

but it is possible I could of missed it.

[demsrule4life]

71. Must be nice to have the power to know what

other people think. Wish I had it, it would of made my life a lot easier when I was a cop. I could of spent more time on the road since I wouldn't had to do interviews.

[slackmaster]

72. Please point out where someone on this board suggested doing that

i.e. ...arming school personnel to deal with threats to students....

Or are you trying to erect a Straw Man?

This teacher that you Gun Huggers are vilifying might have ended up shooting and killing this kid, if she's really the kind of loser you're portraying her as.

<irrelevant speculations snipped>

Please point out where anyone portrayed her as a loser. I see where people introduced the possibility that she might have mistaken another object for a gun, and challenged the suggestion that her status as a former police officer gives her some special qualification to make an accurate observation in whatever the actual situation was. But nobody has demeaned her personally in any way as far as I can see. Just think of the drubbing she would get from a competent defense attorney should the boy be charged with having a gun at school based on her claim.

Sorry to say this Paladin, but you seem genuinely disappointed in the outcome of the case. The best explanation for the evidence here is there never was a gun. The boy may have been intimidating the girl, or they might have just been horsing around for all we know. I think either of those possibilities beats the living crap out of a kid having a gun at school. The news is GOOD.

[Paladin]

75. Trust Me, Slack.......

....I am overjoyed that this incident ended without any bloodshed; remember, I'm one of those nancyboy Gun Grabbers who don't like violence, nor do I believe in turning our schools into armed camps. My point remains the same: if there had been gunplay involved, I honestly believe a lot of you RKBAers would have a viewpoint of this teacher that's 180 degrees different than what's on exhibit in this thread. Want proof of this? That's easy. Wait until the next story hits the Gun Dungeon---believe me, you won't have to wait long---about an innocent citizen being shot down by some shit-for-brains with a gun. Regardless of the circumstances, there will be RKBAers defending the shooter to the point of, you should pardon the expression, canonization. All because he had a gun and he got the chance to use it on someone.......

[demsrule4life]

76. What a load of crap

RKBA folks have everything to lose when it comes to the missuse of guns and the anti's have every thing to win. It is the anti's that jump for joy on any mass school or workplace shooting since these events help thier cause. You can witness this on the daily parade of victims.

[slackmaster]

77. The hypothetical next incident you describe would be seen as a crime

An INNOCENT person getting gunned down?

That sounds like a criminal act, at least to me.

[MrSandman]

78. No, that was not the point...

"This teacher that you Gun Huggers are vilifying"

The teacher did exactly as she should have done. Arresting the student when there no physical evidence of a gun, and when the closest person did not see a gun was questioned. This was not the teacher's decision. It was my contention that an arrest for ADW was not warranted.

Disputing infallibility is far from villification.