Tucson: Gun rights debate: It’s hard to kill a bad guy. Just ask a cop

[RamboLiberal]

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Forget most everything you see on TV or the movies about police shootings. Real shootings are stressful, terrifying encounters. Adrenaline is the enemy of police training.

According to research by the Police Policies Studies Council, most of the rounds shot by cops in the line-of-duty miss. The research showed only a 15-25 percent accuracy rate overall. More importantly, the research showed that a cop by himself had about a 50 percent accuracy rate but when you add more cops doing the shooting, the accuracy falls off a cliff. So much so that if more than two cops are shooting at the same suspect, the accuracy rate is only about 9 percent (distance from the suspect played a role in that).

And this is with highly trained police officers. Using the 50 percent accuracy number, imagine if three or four armed citizens at a shooting scene decided to draw their weapons and shoot back, firing half of the clip in a typical 9 mm semiautomatic, about 7 rounds each? That’s roughly 14 missed shots. Take into consideration that those citizen shooters would likely have less weapons training than a police officer and it’s likely the miss rate would be far greater than 50 percent. It would be a blood bath.

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And then author tells of going through a FATS simulation in a Citizen's Police Academy.

Suddenly, he started running toward me. I quickly drew my weapon and fired. I managed to get off three rounds before he reached me and killed me with the knife. All three rounds missed high and to the right even though he was getting closer (and bigger, in terms of a silhouette). It was shocking how quickly the suspect crossed the distance. Less than two seconds. My palms were sweaty and my heart was racing even though it was just a video game and I was never in any danger. That’s an intended and common reaction to the simulator, I was told.

http://tucsoncitizen.com/mark-evans/archives/409/comment-page-1#comment-11119

I know a lot of citizen CCW holders who would probably perform much better than police many of whom do not practice that much with a firearm. BTW, I have done FATS a couple of times and had good hits and placement and mostly good decisions. It is fun and a bit stressful and a good training aid. Wish more ranges had this for civilians.

And I guess this guy had never heard of the Tueller drill or he'd have been ready for that guy with the knife.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill

[slackmaster]

1. "three or four armed citizens at a shooting scene" scenario has been discussed for about 25 years

And it hasn't happened yet.

[RamboLiberal]

2. +1 Exactly

[slackmaster]

3. I think it's extremely unlikely simply because only a small percentage of people carry

Even in Texas only about 1% of the population have concealed weapons permits, and certainly not all of them are carrying guns at all times everywhere they go.

[RamboLiberal]

4. That's why thou others imply that more than 1 person

in the Gifford's crowd was carrying that day(except of course for the killer) I think it was only that 1 guy who was in the Wahlgreen's.

As much as many here may view half of AZ carrying I can buy it was only the 1 man.

[HockeyMom]

5. My, my. What to do?

FORCE all citizens to carry? BTW, my husband does have a carry permit in Florida. He DOESN'T carry. He only got it because he COULD. Totally pointless.

[slackmaster]

6. I think people should only carry when they really want to

I'm also strongly in favor of people getting training in any self-defense discipline they decide to adopt.

[friendly_iconoclast]

7. How did you recent tour of Florida Walmarts go?

Did you ever find one that would sell you a gun, no questions asked?

[HockeyMom]

8. Give it up

I got better things to do with my life than buying guns, or WASTE MONEY on them. Why I told my husband buy me a food processor instead of a gun. Get it?

[oneshooter]

9. In other words she never intendid to do it. It just sounded good. n/t

[friendly_iconoclast]

11. Observers, take note: *some* DUers are not only malevolently well-informed,

they have long memories to go along with the knowledge....

[friendly_iconoclast]

10. Let me guess: You tried it, got turned down at the first one you went to,

and rather than admit you were wrong, you kept silent and hoped we'd forgotten what you'd said on that thread.

Well, we haven't...

[HockeyMom]

12. Try again

I never bothered. My life takes up too much time to waste of something as unimportant as that. My efforts are spent thinking and trying to get out of "paradise".

[slackmaster]

13. Wouldn't it be simpler to admit that you were mistaken?

You seem to be putting a lot of effort into telling people how unimportant it is.

Does your reputation mean nothing to you?

[HockeyMom]

14. I never tried

so how would I know I was wrong?

[PavePusher]

15. Weak sauce, madam. Back to the food processer with the likes of you. n/t

[slackmaster]

16. I've believed for a long time that willful ignorance is a sin

Repent before it's too late.

[friendly_iconoclast]

19. If you had tried, it wouldn't have cost you a cent. Walmart demands a driver's license before

you can even handle a gun, in all their stores. Some states require more.

I know it's no fun to admit you're wrong about something, I certainly don't like to- but is it really all that bad?

[one-eyed fat man]

22. Why don't you just leave?

Your thinly veiled disgust with your husband dragging you to Florida is evident.

What's puzzling is why you don't just leave?

Need the meal ticket that badly because you can't make it on your own?

Or are you simply a modern Xanthippe?

Is your Indian name Five Horses?


(Nag, Nag, Nag, Nag, Nag)

[Katya Mullethov]

23. My .....

What an unusual name .

[one-eyed fat man]

24. Which one?

Xanthippe or Five Horses?

Xanthippe was Socrates' wife, legendary for her shrewish behavior. Xanthippe means "blonde horse" so appears she took to being a nag seriously. She did appear to color Socrates views on marriage.

"As to marriage or celibacy, let a man take which course he will, he will be sure to repent."

"By all means, marry. If you get a good wife, you'll become happy; if you get a bad one, you'll become a philosopher."

In his own words, Socrates revealed that he lived with a shrew. Xenophon recorded it in the Symposium 2: 7 as follows:

"The other girl began to play on the flute, and a person who was standing by the dancing girl handed her twelve hoops, and she, taking them, began to dance, while at the same time throwing up the hoops which she kept whirling round in the air, carefully guessing each time how high to throw them so as to catch them in time with the rhythm of the music.

Socrates then observed, ‘From many other things, my friends, and from what this girl is now doing, it is apparent that the talent of women is not at all inferior to that of men, though they may be wanting in physical vigor and strength; so that those of you who have a wife ought to teach her with confidence whatever you wish her to know.’

‘How is it then, my dear Socrates,’ said Antisthenes, ‘that if you think so, you do not educate Xanthippe, but instead you have a wife who is the most ill-conditioned of all existing women, and, as I believe, of all that ever were and ever will be?’

‘Because,’ replied Socrates, ‘I see that those who wish to be skilled in horsemanship do not choose the best tempered horses, but those of unruly temper, for they think that if they can master such animals, they can easily manage other horses. So, likewise, I, wishing to converse and associate with all kinds of people, have chosen this wife, knowing well that if I am able to endure her, I shall easily bear the society of all other people,’ This remark was deemed to be quite appropriate.”

Again, Socrates conceded that he married a battleaxe, but that this situation was a blessing to him.

I guess the barb was just too veiled and the harridan missed it. The curse of a classical education, but it reveals why philosopher Daniel Dennett naming his sailboat "Xanthippe" was kind of an inside joke.

[Katya Mullethov]

25. That was the set up for that one

Curious Carpetbagger about to get his 20 questions cut to 3 : " Five Mares ? "
"My .....what an unusal name , what does it mean ?"

Ten Beers , drawing a large arc with his index finger : All day ....nag nag nag nag nag ."


Ten Beers would agree , there is much iron in the words of Socrates . No signed paper can hold this iron , it must come from men .

[one-eyed fat man]

18. so you lied?

Ok, so I will TEST this myself

After all, you did, in so many words, called every one else liars by insisting you could buy a handgun, no questions asked, at any Wal-Mart in "Floriduh"....



You and kv, Dancing with the Stars!

[friendly_iconoclast]

20. I've done worse in my life, so I'll forgive her that, as long as "she goes and sins no more"

Do try to be straight up with us from now on, HockeyMom....

[one-eyed fat man]

21. past as prologue

Her posts do indicate a deep resentment of her husband (who surely must be a philosopher)for dragging her away from from the New York, the center of the universe, to the desolate swamps of, as she puts it, "Flori-duh."

Her posts dripping with barely disguised venom make quite evident her distaste for the knuckle dragging Floridians and their concealed carry permits. It is totally unlike her admiration for New York's system where only professionals are armed: cops and the Gambino family.

Makes you wonder why she hasn't packed up and gone back to her beloved New York?

[benEzra]

17. "Take into consideration that those citizen shooters would likely have less weapons training"

If you're comparing the CCW holder to a regular patrol officer (non-SWAT, non-task-force) in most jurisdictions, no, that assumption isn't necessarily the case.