Honest debate means honest definitions.

[beevul]

"High capacity mag"

"Standard capacity mag"

"Artificially limited capacity mag"



Without honest and accurate definitions, the debate can not be had in any honest way.





Define them accurately.

Have at it.

[ileus]

1. Standard factory issued for whatever firearm...

You're talking from 5-30 rounds depending on the pistol.

Limited capacity I would call a AWB period double stack mag that's been "cutdown" to accept only 10 rounds.

High capacity would be some limit above what the manufacture provided with the firearm. Several companies now supply a concealed carry intended magazine with say 12 rounds, and a home defense magazine with 15-20 rounds.

[shadowrider]

2. My answer

High capacity - Anything over and above what the weapon was designed to hold

Standard capacity - What the weapon was designed to hold

Artificially limited - Something Ben and Jerrys makes to shoot those little ice cream balls into kids mouths from 10 feet

[Glassunion]

5. No...

B&J's uses natural and organic ingredients.

So I would call it... Organically or Naturally Limited.

[shadowrider]

6. Ahhh. My bad. Let me rephrase

A Ben and Jerry CLONE. Better?

[Glassunion]

28. Exactly...

This is how people start being misinformed. They hear some shit like this on TV or something, and the next thing you know they want to place restrictions on shit because someone coined a term and applied to the wrong thing. I.E. Cop-Killer bullets... You know those scary ass bullets that have never even so much as shot one single cop?

I don't want someone putting restrictions on my Ben & Jerry's because someone heard that it is Artificially Limited.

[shadowrider]

31. Ok dude, glad I didn't have a mouthful of somethin or you'd owe me a new keyboard n/t

[Riftaxe]

50. B&J has some slight problems in that regard

http://www.examiner.com/healthy-trends-in-atlanta/ben-jerry-s-no-longer-all-natural">Ben & Jerry's no longer "all natural"

Although organic might still apply, since it is not 100% synthetic...yet :)

[Glassunion]

64. Get off of my cloud with your facts. Your propaganda is not welcome here.

[gateley]

3. This would be helpful for those of us who don't own or have knowledge of guns --

automatic, semi-automatic, assault weapon -- those mean nothing to me.

[slackmaster]

4. Automatic and semiautomatic are clearly and concisely defined in the law.

Assault weapon presently has no meaning under federal law. Several states have AW statutes, but no two of them are alike.

[gateley]

8. See? Good example. No-nothings like me, or maybe I should just speak for myself,

just assumed an assault weapon was another classification, like revolver, for example.

Seriously, people need to be educated. I'm not really interested in getting a weapon, but I think if one is one has the right, I'd just like to know what people are talking about and referring to!

[shadowrider]

7. Here's a quick course

Automatic - Pull the trigger - bang bang bang bang bang bang
Semi-Automatic - Pull the trigger - bang - pull the trigger - bang - pull the trigger - bang

[gateley]

10. So what'd the difference between a Semi-automatic and a revolver? As I think of

a revolver, anyway. The gun with the round chamber that you see in Westerns. :7

[X_Digger]

15. Same general concept, pull- bang, pull-bang..

As you pull the trigger of a revolver, the cylinder rotates to put a fresh, unfired cartridge under the hammer.

On a semi-automatic, the fresh unfired cartridge is 'automatically*' loaded for you.

*hence the term semi-automatic.

[gateley]

20. Good explanation -- thanks. nt

[AtheistCrusader]

92. To go one step further in explaining

A 'Semi-Automatic' pistol will use either recoil energy, or gas bled off from the previous shot to do the 'work' of ejecting the spent shell, and inserting a fresh round.
A revolver (with a couple very rare and unique exceptions) uses the effort of working the trigger to rotate the cylinder into position for the next shot.

So once a semi-auto is 'charged' it takes significantly less physical effort to pull the trigger, which improves accuracy.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

27. Double action revolvers ARE semiautomatic.

Double Action Revolver - Pulling the trigger results in two actions. The hammer is pulled back which also rotates the cylinder and then the hammer falls. (Gun is set then hammer is dropped... two actions... "double action").

Some revolvers require the user to pull the hammer back, which rotates over to the next shot and set the trigger. These are called "single action revolvers". Single Action Revolver: Pulling the trigger results in a single reaction... the hammer falls. Therefore the use must manually cock back the hammer every shot because if the hammer is not cocked back pulling the trigger cannot cause it to fall. ;) This would be similar to a pump-action shotgun... where the shotgun must be "racked" by pumping the forearm before it can be fired.

[Euromutt]

44. Not really; the shooter has to do the work of cocking the hammer

So there's nothing automatic about it.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

49. A double action revolver is not semiautomatic?

pull - bang - pull - bang...

It's still semiautomatic. Would you argue a glock is not semiautomatic (pulling the trigger pulls back the striker completely)? or What about a double action only (DAO) autloader?

[guitar man]

58. No

A double action revolver is not a semiautomatic . While they may shoot in a similar manner, ie, just squeeze the trigger and it fires without cocking the hammer, the double action revolver uses a cylinder with a fixed number of rounds, 6 being the most common, so there is no possibility of using an extended magazine to increase the number of rounds it holds.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

60. The number of rounds a firearm can hold has no bearing on determinatoin of "semiautomatic"...

Firearms which fire from a fixed magazine (garand, mauser, Marlin 60, SKS) all do not have removable magazines and cannot have thier capacities increased unless the firearm itself is modified. Yet I would say they are semiautomatic. One pull - one shot... no other maniplulation required.

[guitar man]

65. True but

All of those weapons have a bolt that is operated by either gas or recoil and they extract the empty brass as the bolt (or slide on a pistol) moves rearward, then the bolt or slide peels the next round off the top and loads it into the chamber. A double action revolver rotates the cylinder to position the next round under the hammer and in alignment with the barrel. Revolvers don't spit out brass and they don't jam like a semiautomatic can sometimes. Revolvers can malfunction but not in the same manner.

The biggest difference in shooting a double action pistol is that each time you squeeze the trigger the pistol's action has to cock the hammer, so you have a long and sometimes heavy squeeze to actuate it for each shot. With a semiauto, after the first shot the slide cocks the hammer for you often resulting in a much shorter and lighter trigger pull.

Semiautomatic pistols also come in either single or double action also. A double action semiauto like the Beretta 92 will allow you to fire the first shot by pulling the trigger without cocking the hammer. A single action semiauto like the 1911 Colt requires that the hammer be cocked before firing the first round.

[DissedByBush]

76. You forget double action only

With each pull of the trigger you pull back the striker or cock the hammer. It is never left cocked by the action.

The only difference is that with revolvers you need the slight extra energy to rotate a cylinder.

It's not hard to find DAO semis with a harder trigger pull than some double-action revolvers.

Yes, there is a definition difference between semis and revolvers.

But the practical difference can often be very little.

[guitar man]

80. Doh!

Yeah you're right, forgot about them, never cared for them much. I grew up with single action revolvers so the 1911 has always been my favorite semi, or a Browning Hi Power.

And yeah, the practical difference between DA revolvers and semiauto pistols is slight.... I gues it's just a little pet peeve with me lol :P

[DissedByBush]

85. I don't like them either

I never saw the point.

[Euromutt]

99. Let me qualify my earlier statement

My bit about cocking hammers, strikers etc. was badly chosen.

The "automatic" part in an automatic or semi-automatic weapon is the mechanism's use of the forces generated by a round firing to load the next round into a position from which it can be fired (hence the term you yourself use, "autoloader"). With a double-action revolver, the work of lining up the next chamber with the barrel is performed by the shooter (by means of pulling the trigger), not by the gun itself, which makes it not "automatic" (semi- or otherwise) There was actually a semi-automatic revolver made a century ago, the Webley-Fosbery Self-Cocking Automatic Revolver (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Webley-Fosbery_Automatic_Revolver), which illustrates the difference.

It's the same way a hand-cranked Gatling gun is not an automatic weapon; the mechanism of the gun is powered entirely by the operator cranking the handle. Strictly speaking, electrically powered Gatling-type cannon and miniguns aren't "automatic" either, in that they use an external power source to drive the mechanism.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

104. I understand... and stand corrected.

[benEzra]

100. No. Revolvers and semiautos achieve the same rate of fire, but by different ends.

A semiauto uses the energy of the previous shot to operate the mechanism. A revolver achieves the same end (one shot per trigger pull) but via a different underlying mechanism.

[YllwFvr]

29. revolvers have a cylinder

that holds the bullets. This can be swung out to be reloaded like this

Or on some the cylinder doesnt pop out and need to be loaded like this one at a time as you rotate the cylinder

and normally have a very limited capacity, 5 or 6 shots. Im no expert, but I believe this second revolver is typical of an older revolver and the way they were loaded.
a semi auto pistol has a detachable box magazine that can hold more bullets that a revolver and can, usually, be reloaded far more quickly

These can vary wildly between models holding between 5 shots and as many as 20 depending on the size of the gun, with aftermarket magazines holding 33 or possibly even more. The one in the picture is a glock 19 and probably has a magazine holding 15 rounds.

[guitar man]

59. The revolver at top

Appears to be a double action, meaning you can squeeze the trigger without pulling the hammer back and the trigger action will cock the weapon.

The second revolver is a single action, the hammer must be cocked manually before each round. In other words it's a "cowboy gun". I'm very fond of single action revolvers, I own a couple of Colt SAAs that were made in the 1870s :)

[YllwFvr]

62. I own a couple of Colt SAAs that were made in the 1870s

that is pretty damn cool

[guitar man]

67. I love them

I had 5 at one time but now I'm down to two. I've got a frontier in 44-40 and I have a 38-40 frame with a smokeless cylinder and barrel conversion to 38spl. The 38 has the absolute smoothest action I've ever shot. The modern repro stuff can't hold a candle to it. :)

[DissedByBush]

73. Depends on the revolver

You didn't expect this to be simple, did you? :)

Revolvers

They come in two types, single action and double action.

Single action is pull the hammer back, pull the trigger - *bang*. Repeat. It's slow. Trigger pulls are light.

Double action is pull the trigger - *bang*. Repeat. It's fast. Trigger pulls are heavy, as each pull cocks the hammer and turns the cylinder.

Single action is considered old-fashioned, mainly on Old West style revolvers. All modern style revolvers are double action.

Semi-automatics

They come in three types, single action, double/single action and double action only.

Single action is mainly older design guns: If the hammer is down, you have to pull it back before you can fire your first shot (loading the weapon normally results in the hammer being left cocked for you). After that the hammer is automatically cocked, creating a light trigger pull for subsequent shots.

Double/single action is newer: If the hammer is down, pull the trigger. The pull will be heavy, but it will pull the hammer back for you for that first shot. After that it's light trigger pull as the hammer is left cocked.

Double action only: Even newer. Every shot requires that you re-cock the hammer. It is not left cocked for subsequent shots. You have a heavy trigger pull for every shot.

The difference

As you see above, it depends. Aside from the number of bullets you can fire before reloading, there's no effective difference between a double-action revolver and a double-action only semi-auto. You're pulling the trigger hard each time you fire. The difference is that the revolver cylinder rotates, while the semi-auto goes back and forth.

For highly-trained people, there's not much practical difference in rate of fire between a double action revolver or semi-auto. I've seen people accurately shoot revolvers faster than I could ever accurately shoot a semi-auto.

The real limit with both is your ability to accurately acquire a target, which for most people is much slower than they can blindly pull a trigger a bunch of times really fast (likely hitting nothing).

BTW. For magazine changes. Practice can get you to under a second to reload for both revolvers and semi-autos. The equivalent of a magazine for a revolver is called a speedloader. This is a bit extreme since this guy is the best, but here's an example of what can be done with a revolver:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3fgduPdH_Y

[X_Digger]

9. Sure, happy to help..

Automatic / full-auto / machinegun : One pull of the trigger results in multiple cartridges being fired, until you remove your finger from the trigger or run out of cartridges.

semi-automatic : One pull of the trigger results in one cartridge being fired. To fire another cartridge, you have to pull the trigger again. The 'automatic' part comes in because the spent shell is ejected automatically, and a new cartridge is automatically loaded.

"assault weapon" -- based on the 1994 federal "ban", a made-up term to describe not a class of weapons, but any semi-automatic weapon with a detachable magazine and a certain number of "features", such as a folding or collapsing stock, a bayonet lug, a barrel shroud, a pistol grip, and a removable flash compensator. The variable nature of the term has lent itself to a lot of hyperbole, making the term kind of useless.

[gateley]

14. And with a semi-automatic different cartridges hold varying numbers of bullets?

So, if my gun has a cartridge that holds 15 bullets, I don't have to do anything except pull the trigger until my bullets run out? Or is a cartridge a round?

See? I know nothing!

[shadowrider]

17. A semi-automatic holds a magazine that can contain any number

of cartridges (A cartridge contains the bullet). You have to pull the trigger each time you want to fire one bullet

[gateley]

21. Okay - thanks. nt

[X_Digger]

18. Cartridge = round.. sorry, I was trying to be both precise but comprehensible to a layperson..

I almost said 'bullet' instead of 'cartridge' but the bullet is actually just the part that leaves the barrel.

bullet - the part that flies down the barrel

casing / brass - the portion left behind after firing

Cartridge / round - the whole thing

eta:

magazine - The thing that holds the cartridges / rounds. Often detachable, so that you can swap an empty one for a full one. The term 'clip' is often misused instead of magazine. (a 'clip' is something quite different.)

[gateley]

23. Thanks! I thought a round was one bullet. I learned that off Johnny Carson

years ago -- seriously! No wonder I'm clueless! :7

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

19. in your example, a semiautomatic

would have to have it's trigger pulled 15 times to expend 15 cartridges.

Cartridges are the entire packaged unit of primer (the thing the hammer hits), brass (casing), gunpowder, and bullet (projectile). The phrase "rounds" is synonymous with "cartirde"... cartridges are rould therfore are referred to as "rounds". Bullets are the actual lead or copper slug/projectile that flies through the air. Casing, or brass, are the empty things that the gun discards.

[gateley]

24. ...

:crazy:

Boy, my head is swimming! But thanks!

[beevul]

22. A cartridge is generally a round of ammunition.

The thing that holds cartridges is generally a magazine.

A magazine can be removable, or integrally built into a gun.

"So, if my gun has a cartridge that holds 15 bullets, I don't have to do anything except pull the trigger until my bullets run out?"

If the gun has a magazine that holds 15 rounds (cartridges) AND is fully automatic, then yes, a single pull of the trigger will shoot, emptying the magazine, unless the trigger is released.

If you gun has a magazine that holds 15 rounds (cartridges) AND is semi automatic, you would have to pull the trigger 15 times to empty the magazine.

If the gun is bolt action, or level action, you have to manually cycle the action in between shots.



The above is lever action.




The above is bolt action.

[gateley]

25. And thank you! You can tell you people know your stuff. It must drive you

nuts when people mouth off without knowing what they're talking about.

[beevul]

30. To a degree.

It is hard, sometimes, to see arguments made based on ignorance, by people who express no interest...even express glee and thankfulness...in not knowing anything about that which they speak.


Oddly enough, guns seems to be one of the few topics you find that in, until you step to the other side of the fence and see repubs talking about abortion or MJ.


on edit: Thank you for being interested enough to care to know what these things mean. Its really and trully refreshing.

[gateley]

35. I generally don't comment on Gun forum posts just because I DON'T know

what I'm talking about and frankly, because I'm not all that interested personally. I don't believe the 'right to bear arms' will ever be taken away, that the Republicans just use it as a campaign weapon (like abortion), but if there were really a threat I'd jump in and defend anybody's right. I understand there are DEGREES, but as I'm not a first person in the debate, I leave it up to those of you who know whereof you speak! :hi:

[beevul]

41. I do much the same thing on many economic issues.

I do much the same thing on many economic issues, simply because I don't know or understand. And those aren't the only things.

Have a great night, Gateley.

:toast:

[gateley]

68. You, too, beevul -- and thanks again for 'walking me through it!

:toast:

[shadowrider]

36. Your patience with the explanations is greatly appreciated

And hopefully you learned something.

Yes, it get extremely frustrating trying to discuss, in most cases argue, with people who take an anti-gun position and have no idea what the difference is between semi-auto, auto, assault rifle, assault weapon, etc.

You have a great evening.

[RSillsbee]

11. Definitions

automatic Will fire until the magazine is empty or you let off the trigger w/ one trigger pull. An actual machine gun is a crew served belt fed weapon.

semi-automatic Fires one round and chambers the next every time the trigger is pulled

assault weapon Is a term the media came up w/ to lable semi automatic, civilian versions on military weapons such as an M-16 or an AK-47

Does that help?

Here is a video by a San Jose California Police officer that explains it much better

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjM9fcEzSJ0

[beevul]

12. Those terms mean the following.

automatic - the gun fires a round as the trigger is pulled, and continues to fire until the trigger is released.

Semi-automatic - pull and hold the trigger, and the gun fires a single round. The gun does not fire another until the trigger is released and pulled again. A single round is fired for each pull of the trigger.

"assault weapon" This is an artificial term. Under federal law it currently has no meaning. Under previous law, it referred to semi-automatic firearms with a certain number of qualifying features such as a barrel shroud, flash hider (flash hider hides the muzzle flash from the user of the weapon only), folding stock, and some others. Generally the term is used to describe "military looking" guns which are semi-automatic in design and function just as any other semi-automatic weapon.

There has been a great deal of confusion regarding that term, some of it deliberate, and even these days one runs across people that think it refers to "automatic weapons" or "weapons of war".

Both are untrue.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

13. here:

Automatic: When you pull the trigger, more than one round is fired until you release the trigger. In the strictest legal sense, "A firearm which discharges more than one shot with a single pull and release of the trigger."

Semi Automatic: One pull and release of the trigger results in a single shot being fired. Some semiautomatic firearms can be fired as fast as you can pull the trigger and others may require working the charging handle or punp arm. Semi Automatic may also be called "autoloading" (not to be confused with "Automatic Firearm", above) because the firearm automatically ejects the spent cartridge and loades the subsequent cartridge - ready for the next triggerpull.

Assault weapon: By definition, per Bill Clinton's 1994 Assault Weapon Ban, assault weapons are semiautomatic firearms which incorporate certain features like detachable magazines, bayonettes, protruding pistol grips... and various other cosmetic features. An assault weapon is functionally no different than basic hunting semiautomatics except for a few cosmetic features. Automatic firearms, mentioned above, ARE NOT assault weapons. When the 1994 AWB expired, the federal legal definition of "assault weapon expired as well... so technically there is no such thing as an assault weapon based on federal laws (it's an imaginary "scary" name).

[Straw Man]

75. Sorry--have to quibble here on one point.

Some semiautomatic firearms can be fired as fast as you can pull the trigger and others may require working the charging handle or punp arm.

I may have misunderstood you: Are you talking about working the charging handle or pump between each shot? Anything that requires some kind of manual manipulation between each shot isn't properly called a "semi-automatic." A semi-automatic uses energy from the firing of the cartridge to operate the action and load the next round. Using the charging handle (or racking the slide on a pistol) is only necessary for the first shot, and even then it is only necessary when the magazine has been inserted with the action closed (or with a tubular magazine). Other than those situations, simply closing the action is enough to load the first round.

Pump actions, like bolt and lever actions, would more properly be called "repeaters," not "semi-automatics." This applies to single-action revolvers as well, and I would even apply it to double-action revolvers; although you can fire the next round simply by pulling the trigger, it is your finger on the trigger that provides the power to revolve the cylinder.

[Glassunion]

16. Here you go...

Semi-Automatic - You squeeze the trigger and 1 round of ammunition is fired.
Automatic - You squeeze the trigger and rounds will continually fire until you let go of the trigger or the firearm runs out of ammunition.

Assault Weapon - No solid definition exists, but the old federal law defined it as a series or combination of cosmetic features. It was a list of features, and if the firearm had a detachable magazine and two other features it was considered an assault weapon.

The features for rifles were:
Folding or telescoping stock (The back end where you would rest your cheek to aim the weapon)
Pistol grip (Basically if the part you hold onto while the rifle is fired sticks down instead of being part of the stock)
Bayonet mount (nuff said.)
Flash suppressor, or threaded barrel designed to accommodate one (it's the exhaust thing at the end that directs the exploding gas from flashing in front of your face momentarily blinding you)
Grenade launcher (see photo... it is the large round cylinder below the barrel)

[Glassunion]

33. You should take a look at this post from benEzra. It will help you greatly.

This was posted a while back, and it has been locked so I could not kick it up.

Here is the Website: http://games.sub-standard.com/Firearms%20Files/Firearms-beginner.html
There is a lot of information you may find interesting about firearms.

benEzra's original post: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=289250

[DissedByBush]

84. "assault weapon" is the hardest to define

An "assault rifle" is a selective-fire (semi- or fully-automatic by the flip of a switch), shoulder-fired weapon with a detachable magazine, firing an intermediate-power cartridge (bigger than pistol, smaller than full-power rifles like for hunting). That's a real definition. It covers the AKs, M-16s, etc.

An "assault weapon" is really whatever the politicians or media want it to mean.

In one way it means "it looks like an assault rifle" even when it can't shoot fully-automatic.

It also means "I don't think people should own it" and "It looks scary."

In many cases, simply putting a more ergonomic stock on a hunting rifle would have it labeled as an "assault weapon" under some definitions.

This is a popular hunting shotgun:



Add one ergonomic feature: make the stock telescope (adjust longer and shorter) so people with differing arm lengths can fire it comfortably. It would look like this, if you made it in hunting camouflage:



It now changed from "hunting shotgun" to "assault weapon" under the 1994 ban.

This is the same thing as the first one, only it has an eight round magazine under the barrel instead of five.



It would have been an "assault weapon" under the 1994 ban. It became an "assault weapon" the moment it carried more than five rounds.

Here's where it gets crazy.



This is the same thing as above, but without the pistol grip stock. It would NOT have been classified as an "assault weapon" even with the larger magazine.

About the pistol grip stock. For people shooting properly, rifle up to the shoulder, it can help with accuracy and lessen fatigue. It does not really make it easier to shoot quickly from the hip.

Besides, given the choice, you want homicidal maniacs shooting from the hip because their chance of hitting anything goes down drastically.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

26. So if all handgun magazines were designed to hold 30 bullets

does that become the new "standard mag"?

That would push the definition of "high-capacity" upwards.

[Glassunion]

32. ooops! wrong spot...

[NewMoonTherian]

34. That's what the OP is asking.

He didn't make any definitions. He is asking for your definition.

I recuse myself from making any definitions regarding magazine capacity, because it doesn't matter to me. I feel there should be no limit.

[shadowrider]

37. If they did that I'd still stick with 10 + 1. It's heavy enough n/t

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

38. Poor phrasing, I suspect.

I believe what he meant is a firearm magazine, which fits entirely into the grip of the gun without wildly protuding, would be a magazine designed for that particular pistol.

I have a glock 19. A 15 round magazine can be inserted entirely up to the floorplate of the magazine and nothing else protrudes from the firearm. Clearly, the Glock 19 was designed with a maximum mag capacity of 15 rounds - so it shipped with these magazines. A 31 round magazine can be inserted, however the mag hanges about 5" out of the grip.

I think the OP simply chose to try conveying this concept without being so verbose.

[beevul]

42. You are correct, Sir.

"I think the OP simply chose to try conveying this concept without being so verbose."


You are correct, Sir.

[Old Codger]

39. That mag

Would be quite cumbersome, a model 19 9MM Glock has a standard mag that holds 15 rounds, if you go to a 30 round mag it is quite a bit longer and extends the grip by a lot. The fully automatic Glock cannot be purchased in the united states by civilians.

A true assault weapon is something along the lines of an M16 or an AK47 the civilians models are the AR15 type and the sk47 which are semi automatic, with the M16 you can empty a clip in about a second and a half or less with one pull of the trigger same with an AK47 with an AR15 you can empty it pretty fast also but need to pull the trigger for each shot, 15 rounds=15 pulls so are limited to how fast you can operate the trigger. What the media refers to as an assault rifle is not really one, true assault rifles are used by the armed forces the average person cannot get one legally in the united states without going through quite an extensive procedure.

[DissedByBush]

74. Average capacity

This is not scientific, just my sense.

For full-size semi-automatic handguns, let's take a sample from the majors for 9mm manufacturer magazine sizes they ship with:

Sig Sauer P226: 15
Glock 17: 17, other models 10-15
Baretta 92: 15
Walther P88: 15
Springfield XD: 16.

Larger caliber pistols will usually hold fewer rounds. Pistols with smaller rounds carry even more standard, such as the FN Five-seveN at 20 rounds.

But note the trend: Pretty much what fits in the grip.

So you'd have to have a scale of what's "standard." 9mm around 15, .40 around 12.

Then throw in hand size. I know people who have no problem with fat grips holding over 17 rounds. I have a problem with that, preferring slimmer grips. It's just what's comfortable.

And then it all goes out the window for semi-auto pistols that don't hold the ammunition in the grip. For them, such as the TEC-9, 30+ round magazines are standard.

[benEzra]

103. Standard capacity depends on the handgun.

A Glock 17 is designed for a 17-round magazine plus one in the chamber, for a total capacity of 18. It can be used with extended magazines that stick out past the grip, and these would be "high capacity" or "extended" magazines. If you take a standard mag body and fill half of the magazine with useless plastic to reduce its capacity to only 10 rounds, that'd be a reduced-capacity magazine. Ditto for a Springfield XD(m) 9mm, which has a standard capacity of 20+1 with flush-fit magazines.

A Colt M1911-pattern .45 ACP, on the other hand, is typically designed for a 7-round magazine, so "standard capacity" for a 1911 is 7 rounds plus the chambered round.

Generally speaking, the smaller the rounds that a pistol uses, the higher the standard capacity, given the same magazine length. To put it another way, reducing the caliber increases the capacity, and increasing the caliber reduces the capacity, all else being equal. For example, the Kel-Tec PMR-30 is a neat plinking and camping type pistol that shoots very small rounds (.22 rimfire), and as a result a standard-length double-column magazine holds 30 rounds. Most 9mm's hold 20 or less with flush-fit magazines, and most .45's hold 14 or less.

[Hoyt]

40. If you carry a weapon that can commit carnage in a few seconds, it's more than you need for defense.

I don't believe knowing those definitions -- or how to breakdown a 1911, or how much damage your latest load will do, for that matter -- mean squat in this debate.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

43. Define Weapon?

[beevul]

45. "If you carry a weapon that can commit carnage in a few seconds..."

Show me a firearm that doesn't meet that standard.

A break action double barrel shotgun can commit carnage in less than seconds. 1 trigger pull.

"I don't believe knowing those definitions...mean squat in this debate"


I bet you'd be more than happy to define carnage though, wouldn't you.

Not being interested in knowing those definitions doesn't exactly qualify you to define them for others, now, does it.

[guitar man]

90. Damn right it can

A simple double barrel 12 ga. can fuck a lot of shit up real quick. Repeating shotguns even more so.


For all the talk about "assault weapons" and "extended mags" and blah blah blah, if I was a crazy cold blooded killer and wanted to take out as many people as I could with something I could get cheap, I'd get a Remington 1100, extend the mag tube, cut the barrel down and load it full of 00 buckshot. Take two for the "New York Reload" and it would make for one hell of an ugly mess :scared:

And it's just a simple hunting shotgun.

Of course if they were standing out on the sidewalk in a densely packed crowd , I've got a big ass Dodge conversion van that would probaly create more "carnage" in less time than a single shooter ever could.

[rrneck]

46. Define carnage. nt

[beevul]

47. What if you don't "carry it", and just "own" it?

What if you don't "carry it", and just "own" it?

[Euromutt]

48. Define "carnage"

[Hoyt]

51. Hey guys, the definitions are meaningless. So, spare us. I've heard it all before.

The way you guys rationalize walking around with one of these weapons in today's society is a waste of my time. I've been around guns since I was born and can still breakdown a 1911 blindfolded.

Fortunately, I grew up and have no irrational need to pat that cold steel before I walk outside my door into society (where guns really aren't welcome). Try it sometimes -- a few of you might actually like it. A few of you might feel queasy or actually vomit the first few times, but most of you will get over it. Just think of all the time you waste screwing around with your weapons of mass carnage.

[PavePusher]

55. :"definitions are meaningless"

So is intentional, deliberate ignorance in the face of a flood of facts and knowledge.

I think you're done here.

[friendly_iconoclast]

57. "Ignorance is Strength", indeed!

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

61. You're an idiot...

Of course, you'll never know what I meant by "idiot" because "definitions are meaningless".

[Hoyt]

69. Idiot, ignoramus, fool, etc., all essentially mean the same thing -- Like Magazine vs. Clip.

[AtheistCrusader]

96. Magazine and Clip do not mean 'essentially the same thing' outside hollywood.

[Hoyt]

102. It does when you are talking about the necessity for tougher gun controls.

What is it about pro-gunners that they want to argue about thing like it's called a magazine, no it's a clip.

Either one holds bullets, it's that simple. Unless you just want to avoid the issue.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

105. There is such thing as a clip though, outside of talking about magazines...

It's not like you're using an icorrect word that has no meaning outside the one you've applied to it... "Clip" has a related yet different distinct firearms-related meaning from the word "magazine". When talking about firearms, in any sense, they should not be interchanged.

It would be like enacting automobile legilation and stating "wheels or tires... it all means the same thing".

[Hoyt]

106. We are talking gun controls, not nomenclature for the gun obsessed.

We are discussing gun controls, proliferation of guns in public, etc. Not nomenclature for the gun obsessed.

Go down to your favorite gun store -- probably has the word Impact, Tactical or something similar in its name -- and ask for a hi-capacity "clip" for a Glock. See what they pull out.

But,hey, you guys keep trying to confuse the issues in millions of ways.

[AtheistCrusader]

108. If you limit 'clips', you will not address the component you seek.

It's as simple as that. Is it too much to ask for you to have some clue what you are trying to regulate?

[Hoyt]

110. Well if there is such confusion, let's just regulate guns in public. That'll make it easy on you.

[AtheistCrusader]

113. They already are, so our work is done, yes?

Do you not understand how legal language must be precise?

[AtheistCrusader]

107. Completely wrong, and it's critical for you to understand this terminology if you want to

write any coherent laws around this point. If you ban larger than 10 round 'clips', you will ban harmless metal strips used to charge a magazine. A magazine may be fixed in place, or removable. A magazine may have a capacity greater than the clip that feeds it.

Not that I wish to actually help you, but the correct component you wish to limit is Magazines, and Magazines only. A clip is meaningless for the purpose of determining how many rounds a firearm can hold.

The clip for my US Model 1917, for instance, holds 5 rounds. It's internal magazine holds 6+1. If you intent was to limit rifles at 5 rounds, for example, and you banned clips greater than 5 rounds in size, my firearm would still hold 6+1 in it's internal magazine. Clips and magazines are not the same thing, if you would simply refer to the expired 1994 AWB, this should be abundantly clear to you.


I do not understand why you are so hot to trot to regulate something you don't even understand.


Edit: Collorary, if you limited magazines to 10 rounds, and completely ignored clips entirely, you would achieve your desired effect.

[Name removed]

111. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AtheistCrusader]

112. LOL.

You really just can't be arsed to read the expired federal AWB from 1994, can you? It would have taken you less time than typing all that crap.

I've never tried breaking down a firearm underwater, but I'm game to try it.

[rl6214]

88. So because YOU are unwilling to participate in a civilized

discussion and you think you are superior, you resort to talking down to those with a different opinion to yours.

"irrational need to pat that cold steel before I walk outside my door into society (where guns really aren't welcome). Try it sometimes -- a few of you might actually like it. A few of you might feel queasy or actually vomit the first few times, but most of you will get over it. Just think of all the time you waste screwing around with your weapons of mass carnage."

[AtheistCrusader]

95. You're the one who came into this thread toting strawmen.

By all means, defend them or get out.

[Euromutt]

98. On the contrary, definitions are very meaningful (by definition)

It's really easy to throw out words like "carnage," "massacre," "mass carnage" or indeed "irrational" when you don't have to commit yourself to attaching an actual meaning to them. You can just leave it to the imagination of the reader what you actually mean.

See, I spent over three years working for the prosecution at one of the UN war crimes tribunals, and I tend to use words like "massacre" and "carnage" sparingly, lest I trivialize them. What happened at Ahmići (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmi%C4%87i_massacre) and Račak (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra%C4%8Dak_massacre), for example, I would call massacres, not merely because of the number of victims, but also because of the percentage of total population involved.

And frankly, you can shove your patronizing attitude, and the notion that you are entitled to speak for society; when a state's constitution and laws permit the carrying of firearms, I think that's stronger evidence of what "society" thinks than the opinion of one person. Moreover, I spent over 30 years of my life living in (and I still visit every couple of years) countries that severely restrict private firearms ownership and don't issue carry permits at all (which isn't to say there aren't people carrying illegally). Whether I feel any safer depends entirely on what neighborhood I'm in. I do know for certain that I've been the victim of physical assault more often in Netherlands than I have here.

Just think of all the time you waste screwing around with your weapons of mass carnage.

Yeah, it's much productive to spend your time being insulting to people on the internet. In the words of Ben Kenobi: "Who's more foolish: the fool, or the fool who follows him?"

[Riftaxe]

52. So you would support a ban on anything but butter knives?

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/may/13/world/la-fg-china-school-attack-20100513">attacker kills 7 children, 2 adults with meat cleaver

[Hoyt]

53. Thank God he didn't have a gun with a 30+ shot magazine like you guys promote.

[friendly_iconoclast]

54. He killed more people with a cleaver than Loughner did with his 30+ shot magazine

When are you going to promote that ban?

[AtheistCrusader]

97. Happened in Japan not long ago too. 7 dead, 17 injured.

With a knife.

Some people are really determined to hurt other people.

[beevul]

63. Being against something being banned is not the same as "promoting" it.

Being against something being banned is not the same as "promoting" it.

I'm against abortion being banned, however that doesn't mean I "promote" abortions - though some on the right would say otherwise.

I'm against the ban on MJ, but I don't "promote" MJ use - though some on the right would say otherwise.

You may wish to rethink your logic.

[Hoyt]

70. Well if you prefer, we'll change "promote" to "enable."

[beevul]

77. Ok, lets try it.

"Thank God he didn't have a gun with a 30+ shot magazine like you guys enable."

There. I changed it for you.

Now lets look at the logic of believing a ban with strict penalties would bother in any way - someone intent on comitting murder.


Think it would?

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DissedByBush]

101. I hate 30+ round magazines in pistols

Personally, I think they're ridiculous. I would never own one. They make the handling of the pistol off-balance and give it an unnatural feel.

But just because I don't like them doesn't give me the right to ban others from having them.

[friendly_iconoclast]

56. Deleted

[DissedByBush]

79. I just got a new four-pound log splitter

I could cause some serious carnage with that thing in a few seconds. Walk into a crowded area and start swinging.

Don't even need to bring it with you to raise suspicion. Just pick one off the shelf at Wal-Mart and go for it.

If you're not a farmer able to get ahold of a bunch of ammonium nitrate, a bunch of instant cold packs will do. With some diesel from your local gas station, you now can make an ANFO bomb, the same thing McVeigh used in Oklahoma City.

[Hoyt]

83. I would certainly hope your state has laws that would prevent your from buying or carrying a gun.

[DissedByBush]

87. Because I remembered basic chemistry in high school?

That's it, we need to make the entire population as dumb as you so nobody could ever build a device that could hurt people.

Now we make it hard for people to get their cold medicine because it's basic chemistry to turn pseudoephedrine into methamphetamine.

In Wally World after the pharmacy is closed? Too bad, you're screwed, try the phenylephrine based junk that my own pharmacist admits doesn't work for shit.

Smart people are dangerous.

[friendly_iconoclast]

93. "Ignorance is Strength", remember? You don't need to know definitions, either

[rl6214]

86. Of course you don't

You don't care to know what you are talking about.

[AtheistCrusader]

94. A weapon that can "commit carnage in a few seconds"

Used a steak knife recently? 17 people stabbed, 7 dead.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8jAv_BXz4k

[beevul]

66. Looks like the unrecers are having a field day.

Apparently the idea of honest and accurate definitions run contrary to the wishes of some.

You know who you are.

If you have to rely on dishonest and inaccurate descriptions to support your stance and agenda, perhaps you should be looking yourselves in the mirror and be questioning the courage of your convictions. And the legitimacy of your agenda.

You know you wouldn't be doing that on the topic of abortion, taxes, healthcare, and a host of others.

You should be ashamed of your selves for doing that on any topic, including the topic of guns.

[DissedByBush]

71. Example of "Artificially limited capacity mag"

The FN PS-90, the civilian semi-auto version of the "Stargate SG-1 gun."

It was designed with a 50-round magazine. That is the rifle's standard capacity.

This isn't like an AK or M16 where you buy a longer or shorter magazine. All magazines have to be that exact same length in order to fit into the rifle properly. That's the magazine notched in above the green plastic.



All examples for civilian sale in the US have the magazines artificially limited to 30 rounds, except in California where they are artificially limited to 10 rounds. This is accomplished by putting chunks of plastic where the ammo would go. It is possible to restore a 30 round magazine back to 50 rounds through the use of a Dremel to remove the offending extra plastic.

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DissedByBush]

78. It's common suggestion among owners

Standard 50-round magazines are expensive.

This gets you what you paid for with a Dremel, some glue, and ten minutes of work.

Imagine they rev-limited your Honda Civic to 4,000 rpm because some idiots who knew nothing about cars and were scared of them didn't like the idea of people revving their engines higher. I wouldn't blame the owners for circulating among them a method to get it back to its designed 8,600 rpm.

[Name removed]

82. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[beevul]

89. I don't think you'll get any further responses...

[guitar man]

91. That has got to be

about the ugliest thing I have ever seen x(

[DissedByBush]

109. The original short barrel looks better

It was designed for personal defense in a tight space.

Lightweight, fully loaded with 50 rounds it weighs less than an empty M-16.

Small, half the length of an M-16, two-thirds the length of an M-4 although the barrel is only 4 inches shorter.

It can empty the magazine seconds, and remain controllable and aimable the entire time.

Its ammo was designed to pierce body armor (not available to civilians).

It's fully ambidextrous with nothing needed to change right to left. Cases eject downwards.

Form follows function. Ugly, but compact and deadly.