A reasonable requirement is to require ID verifying a gun purchaser is 18 years or older

[CreekDog]

just on principle.

i think that's something we all can agree on.

regardless of existing or potential laws. just that this is one thing that we can all agree should exist and is reasonable.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

1. This IS a requirement.

If you purchase ANY firearm through ANY licensed dealer (only licensed dealers can sell retail firearms or engage in the business of dealing firearms) at ANY venue (store, house, gunshow, etc.) the dealer is required call in a background check with the national database which certainly requires seeing your ID to veify age - 21 for handguns and 18 for rifles.


I agree... it is a good practice.

[doc03]

24. That is just not true, an individual can sell a firearm to anybody

no call for a background check, no ID check, nothing just cash.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

27. reread my statement... I clearly state licensed dealers.

My statement is correct.

However, individuals have always been allowed to sell thier private firearms as they see fit so long as they are not engaged in the business of regularly selling firearms (or knowingly selling to prohibited persons).

[doc03]

29. Not exactly, read the part you put in parentheses. That was the

part I was trying to clarify.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

37. Please clarify...

If you are not an FFL, you cannot receive retail firearms from licensed firearm manufacures - unless the manufacturer itself files your 4473 (very unlikely).

And selling used firearms does not make you a dealer. If the ATF determines you are in the business of selling firearms, even selling at a loss, then they will require you to acuire an FFL permit. What is the limit to determine if you are engaging in a business? That's up to the ATF... but the ATF has consistently held that selling of your private collection does not require an FFL.

[doc03]

52. (only licensed dealers can sell retail firearms or engage

in the business of dealing firearms) Yes that is true about someone in the (business) of dealing firearms. You left out the other part about any individual being permitted to sell from your private collection. I wouldn't be surprised if there are more private sales than FFL sales. A buddy of mine passed away a few years ago he had well over 200 guns in his collection. The point I am trying to make is you can make all the laws you want regulating FFL dealers but it does nothing to regulate the private market. I can legally go out tonight and sell my .40 Cal Springfield XDM with a 16 round magazine to any nut case on the street, no ID, no background check, nothing!

[CreekDog]

33. My message wasn't that long --why the difficulty in actually answewring the question?

we know that you know the laws.

i want to know if you support laws that limit the age of gun purchasers to 18 and over --or not.

[doc03]

36. Of course I do but that does nothing to stop an individual

from buying selling or trading anything to anybody. I don't have any statistics but I would bet more guns used in crime are either stolen or bought from a private party than a licensed dealer.

[CreekDog]

38. well if it's dangerous to have guns stolen , then why not track them?

so that if they are in the wrong hands (for example, "stolen"), they can easily be identified and returned to their rightful owner?

[doc03]

53. I agree, but how can you track them when you have

unregulated private sales? I have sold or traded several guns over my lifetime but I kept a record of who I sold them to, the SN, the date and price they paid for them just for my piece of mind. I highly doubt very many people go to that trouble.

[CreekDog]

56. private sales should be regulated

:hi:

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

58. You cannot ensure they remain regulated though.

If you familiarize yourself with FFL requirements and practices you'll realize that the dealers keep a rudementary record/registration of all firearms that are bought or sold by the FFL. It's called the "bound book" - each dealer keeps one. The easiest way to sum it up is an uncentralized registry of retail firearms. The ATF can audit a dealer and see what guns went to whom and see if there are any illegal sales... but after that the papertrail goes dead. The guns become grey market - the gov doesn't really know where they are.

Regulating private sales the way you're thinking would be nearly impossible because:
a) non-FFL licensed indivuals are not to keep bound books.
b) the ATF can barely keep track of the FFLs they currently have. Working directly with 80,000,000 gun owners? Not a chance.
c) We don't even have a true registry. It's decentralized so tracing a gun is pretty difficult. The system is really a tool to regulate dealer malpractices.

To regulate private sales, you would need an effective centralized registry.
And that's pretty much where the conversation hits a brick wall. Creating a centralized registry... unlikely, unpopular, and political suicide. Creating an "effective" registry... all but impossible. It would simply cost too much money and america has too many grey market guns.

[one-eyed fat man]

62. Private sales?

Did you smoke dope in college? Do you still smoke dope? Did you have a fake ID to and go to bars in high school?

Did you support laws against those things then? How about now? Which question are you asking?

Do you think some 21 year old won't buy a 19 year old all the tequila she needs to drop her drawers?

Laws are merely a moral restraint on a person's action. We can agree that people should not sell guns to those who are, underage, crazy, felons, wife beaters, etc. We can pass laws so businesses have to check ID's run background checks, etc.

But if you ever once bought something illegal when YOU were underage, 'fess up, just how hard was it, really? Was it still a crime? Or is it only a crime if you get caught?

If it's against the law and you do it, it's a crime. If you get caught, there are consequences.

It's not legal to privately sell a gun to someone who is underage just like it's not legal to sell them a six pack, or buy a six pack for them.

[one-eyed fat man]

59. The ATF has argued in court

the the NFA registry was never intended to return stolen items to their rightful owners.

How long does something have to be stolen? Before the original owner loses his title?

One of the things that Brady and VPC are pushing for cops to DESTROY all guns that come into their possession for whatever reason, after they are no longer needed for legal proceedings.

Yes, that is precisely what they don't want you to catch. Your stolen gun is recovered, and once the police no longer need it for evidence, it is to be destroyed.

It is not to be returned to you, despite you being an innocent victim of a theft.

This precise logic was used to put a rare machine gun into the museum at West Point. A 1914 Maxim stolen from an American Legion Post was recovered and held for decades by the Raritan, New Jersey PD before being turned over to the Army.

When the owner of the gun sued for the return of his stolen property, the ATF testified that the NFA Registry was NEVER INTENDED to be used to reunite stolen property with its rightful owners. The Federal judge ruled despite having a valid registration for the machine gun, the owner had no standing to sue.

Wheaton V. Caldera

Nice "catch-22" with registration. If states are being urged to pass laws so all police recovered guns are to be destroyed and not returned what is the point in registration?

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

39. a) Your OP actually has no questions in it.

it's not like you're just missing punctuation either... there were no questions posed.

b) The last line of my response to the OP states, "I agree... it is a good practice" (referring to the concept offered in the OP).

[Euromutt]

25. It's also to verify residence in the state in question

And as I understand it, it's standard practice for private sellers, at gun shows and elsewhere, to at least require to see ID for purposes of verifying age and state of residence. Not that you'd know from these undercover videos, which always seem to have inexplicable editing cuts in them around the time you'd expect the seller to ask to see some ID.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Euromutt]

48. Or legally resident alien (n/t)

[eallen]

55. Yes. They have the same 14th amendment "due process" rights as everyone else.

Which includes everything incorporated from the Bill of Rights.

:hippie:

[notesdev]

3. Also a reasonable requirement

anybody who practices a religion must be 18 years or older

[CreekDog]

4. what?

:shrug:

[notesdev]

5. Isn't that at least as dangerous as a gun?

I would say so. Since we're putting reasonable restrictions on Constitutional rights, let's have one for religion.

And speech, too. Very dangerous stuff, as we see in Egypt. None of that for under-18s either.

[CreekDog]

6. no

hey, you asked. :eyes:

[safeinOhio]

23. Hey lets make em have to be 18

to vote too, and at least 13 to get married.

[Hangingon]

10. Right. Anyone who orders for themselves at Denny's too.

[rl6214]

11. Why bring up this

strawman

[Callisto32]

14. I believe that is more a red herring.

[HankyDubs]

7. look

No matter how reasonable the requirement, it will be met with objections from the gungeon. Making silly analogies, hollering about freedumb. It never fails.

[CreekDog]

8. isn't the case so far

:hi:

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[slackmaster]

20. Nice broad-brush smear

And demonstrably wrong.

[cleanhippie]

21. How would you know? You have yet to make a single reasonable argument.

[HankyDubs]

30. i've made several

But if you aren't able recognize these, that isn't really my problem.

[cleanhippie]

60. You are right, your inability to make a reasonable argument is not my problem.

[X_Digger]

9. That's actually already the law. (18 for long rifles, 21 for handguns)

States' law vary as to possession between 18-21 for handguns.

In some states, a person must be 21 to possess a handgun at all, in others, it's 18 (but federal law still prohibits purchase of such.)

[doc03]

26. An individual can sell a gun to anyone no background check

or ID required, just the green backs.

[X_Digger]

31. Yes, and? n/t

[doc03]

35. So what is the point putting restrictions on dealers

when any John Doe can go out and sell anything to anybody?

[X_Digger]

40. It puts up a roadblock for most felons.

The last time the DOJ studied the issue, the majority of firearms acquired by criminals came from illegal/black markets and friends/family (80% total).

1.6% of guns used in crime were purchased from a gun show/flea market.

It's a solution in search of a problem.

[virginia mountainman]

50. They can sell you some pot to, irregardless of state law..

Whats YOUR point?

[CreekDog]

32. We aren't asking what the existing law is -we're asking if you support the concept

of requiring gun purchasers to be of a certain age or not.

[X_Digger]

41. And I'm telling you it already is that way.

Providing a firearm to a minor is already a crime.

Just ask Mark Manes, who provided a handgun to the Columbine shooters.

[CreekDog]

42. are you hiding whether you support such a restriction or not?

support it in all cases and all states?

it's very simple.

if you won't answer yes or no, i'm going to have to assume you do not support it.

[X_Digger]

43. You haven't proposed a change in any law.. are you doing so now?

I'm not the one being mealy-mouthed. Are you proposing a change to the law? If so, what change?

[CreekDog]

45. again, you won't answer whether you support laws that prohibit those under 18 from purchasing

:shrug:

[X_Digger]

46. I support 18 USC Section 922

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/44/922

That already defines such as a crime.

(x)(1) It shall be unlawful for a person to sell, deliver, or
otherwise transfer to a person who the transferor knows or has
reasonable cause to believe is a juvenile -
(A) a handgun; or
(B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun.
(2) It shall be unlawful for any person who is a juvenile to
knowingly possess -
(A) a handgun; or
(B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun.

[CreekDog]

47. but not for rifles?

ok.

[X_Digger]

49. Different section.. I didn't paste all of 18 USC 922

There are exceptions for juveniles working on a farm, or in the national guard, etc etc etc.

Check that link, and start at the top.

eta:

Here..

(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed
manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or
deliver--
(1) any firearm or ammunition to any individual who the licensee
knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than eighteen years
of age, and, if the firearm, or ammunition is other than a shotgun
or rifle, or ammunition for a shotgun or rifle, to any individual
who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less
than twenty-one years of age;

[doc03]

54. That is for a license dealer, what about a private seller? n/t

[X_Digger]

57. State laws cover that.

For instance, in Texas..

http://law.onecle.com/texas/penal/46.06.00.html

§ 46.06. UNLAWFUL TRANSFER OF CERTAIN WEAPONS. (a) A
person commits an offense if the person:
...
(2) intentionally or knowingly sells, rents, leases,
or gives or offers to sell, rent, lease, or give to any child
younger than 18 years any firearm, club, or illegal knife;

All states have similar language.

[RSillsbee]

12. Ok I'll go for that

But what is the issue? It's already the law.

[msongs]

13. sorry 2A has no restrictions of any sort for age, gender, criminal record, weapon or citizenship nt

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[msongs]

17. 2A text:

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

[slackmaster]

18. Only a complete idiot would suggest that rights aren't subject to restriction through due process

...of law.

[PavePusher]

34. You are either mightily confused...

or lying your ass off.

Pick one...

[Katya Mullethov]

19. Unless they are Hispanic

ATF says you shouldnt sell a gun to a Hispanic looking person unless you are an FFL and run a NICS on them also . Just more unintended consequences of their hamfisted tomfoolery .

[robinlynne]

22. I dont believe anyone is actually arguing with this.........

[YllwFvr]

28. ID isnt required in my state

for private sales. However, for my own peace of mind, I ask for ID and run a private background check. Unless its a hand gun, Pa doesnt allow private sales for those so its run through PICS

[Atypical Liberal]

44. This is the law in most places already.

In most places, you have to be 21 to purchase a handgun and 18 to purchase a rifle. Many places have exceptions for parents buying firearms for their children.

However, as has been noted, private sales are not under any real regulation whatsoever. Even if laws were passed requiring it (and there are Constitutional hurdles concerning interstate and intrastate commerce), they would be largely unenforceable. This is because there is no way to track private sales of property. If two people meet up in the Walmart parking lot and exchange money for goods, no one is the wiser.

I'm sure many a teenage gang banger has purchased a stolen firearm from a fence, with no regard for laws on the subject.

[aikoaiko]

51. Sure, in my state, as a private seller, I am responsible for the buyer being 18+ and a resident

So I ask to see a DL or state id.

[CreekDog]

61. Thank you everybody, thanks to this thread...

I'm not 100% despondent about the future. :rofl: