River of Guns Winds Through Some Interesting Spots

[beevul]

River of Guns Winds Through Some Interesting Spots

Friday, February 18, 2011

The idea that we'd ever find WikiLeaks information relevant to the protection of United States citizens' gun rights wasn't anywhere on our radar when the NSSF's Larry Keane tipped us off to some disturbing information gleaned from leaked State Department documents.

According to State Department cables, the Mexican drug cartels are getting their weaponry from an international operation, with the cartels getting military weapons through various government channels. Some of those weapons did, in fact, come from the United States, but they weren't the result of the "gun show loophole" straw-man purchases or any of the other individual criminal acts anti-gun groups would have you believe.

Large quantities of those US weapons -everything from rifles to machine guns, grenade launchers, explosives and ammunition, came from purchases by the government of Mexico from the United States. As the underpaid, undermanned and undermined soldiers of the Mexican army skipped out on the military to put their training to work for the cartels, they took their issued-arms with them.

Others come from weapon buys from guerilla groups in South and Central America that are then smuggled into the country.

No specific numbers on how many of those guns "recovered in Mexico and traced back to the United States" were, in fact, military purchases, but the State Department cables indicate a portion of the fewer than 12 percent of the traceable weapons actually came from the United States in gun shop/individual type purchases. Remember, that's not 12 percent of the tens of thousands of weapons recovered - it's only 12 percent of the weapons recovered that were traceable. It's nowhere near the 12 percent figure that has been misquoted and used as evidence of the United State's "horrific" problem of illegal gun sales.

http://www.theoutdoorwire.com/features/224028

[jpak]

1. More guns more death

yup

[Glassunion]

2. Actually quite the opposite is true...

Currently our crime rates are dropping and gun ownership and purchases are at record highs.

[beevul]

3. Yup

Yup

Yup

Yup

Yup

Yup

[jpak]

5. No correlation between crime and gun ownership - nope - and the facts in Mexico say you are wrong

yup

[Glassunion]

6. I'm sorry, but more guns does not equal more crime.

I think mexico's issues might stem from the illegal drug trade.

[AtheistCrusader]

12. Is it 'ownership' when your weapons are acquired illegally from the Mexican Army?

After the US Government handed that shit over to the Mexican Army?

Tell me, what Firearms Legislation applies to the federal government?

[rl6214]

35. Talk to the drug cartels, not the legal gun owners

OH WAIT, there are no legal gun owners in Mexico!

NOPE

NOPE

NOPE

[X_Digger]

38. Tut-tut.. search Xela's posts..

There are plenty of legal gun owners in Mexico.

Xela's an ex-pat living in Texas, and he's demonstrated that there are quite a few legal gun owners in Mexico.

Very limited? Yes.

[AtheistCrusader]

yup

yup yup yup yup hergbla burgblah

Do you have anything intelligent to add?

[Katya Mullethov]

14. More guns = More appropriations

It's their job .

[sharesunited]

4. Legal gun sales are even more troubling.

Imagine being able to go to a store and buy guns and ammo?

That's just bizarre.

[spin]

7. Wrong again. It would bizarre to not be able to go to a store and buy guns and ammo ...

and if that day ever comes, the criminals will be celebrating in the streets.

[sharesunited]

9. You're deliberately ignoring three obvious facts.

Retail sale of guns and ammo increases their presence in society.

The increased presence of guns and ammo in society gives criminals easier access.

Easier access increases the likelihood of crime emboldened by guns and ammo.

[Katya Mullethov]

15. What about wholesale direct marketing ?

I would imagine the machine guns , grenades and the like in the story were packed and shipped direct to the Mexican military . If they cut the banding off and then passed them out to their friends for free ,or a wee mordida , that doesn't make it a retail sale .

[spin]

17. You are ignoring several obvious facts ...

There are an estimated 300,000,000 firearms in our country right now.

You have zero chance of passing a law that would confiscate all firearms and if you did the Supreme Court would rule it unconstitutional.

It's quite easy to make your own ammo and many shooters do today.

If all sales of firearms were banned, a black market for firearms would be created. You would be able to buy fully automatic rifles on the street for a lower price than you have to pay for a semi-auto look alike today. Many countries manufacture such weapons and they would be far easier to smuggle into our nation than the tons of marijuana that arrive every day. Remember that gun sales are strictly controlled in Mexico and yet the drug cartels have no shortage of fully auto weapons, grenades, and rocket launchers.

Instead of improving the situation, your plan would cause an increase in crime coupled with even more deadly weapons on the street.

[guitar man]

18. Exactly

Anyone who thinks it possible to "rid the country of guns" should watch this video. It's a realeye opener.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbuv8DLDNko

[spin]

23. Great video. Thanks! (n/t)

[AtheistCrusader]

8. The 'Gun Store' was pallets of NFA weapons shipped from the US Government.

Shit that I CANNOT PURCHASE in the US.

And legal gun sales to private parties with background checks is your concern?

Get fucking real.

[sharesunited]

11. Shall I give you links to today's published stories of shootings in the USA?

Are those the kind of weapons contained on those pallets?

[AtheistCrusader]

13. Some undoubtably are.

The topic in this thread was the cartel violence in Mexico, and the border states.

Try and stay on topic.

[sharesunited]

16. To stay on topic I should have said Sales of Guns By The U.S. Government Are Bad.

BEFORE I mentioned that retail sales of guns to the public are worse.

At least inasmuch as retail sales are more likely to result in Americans being shot in their own communities.

[Straw Man]

19. Do you place a lower value on Mexican lives...

...than on American lives?

To stay on topic I should have said Sales of Guns By The U.S. Government Are Bad.

BEFORE I mentioned that retail sales of guns to the public are worse.

At least inasmuch as retail sales are more likely to result in Americans being shot in their own communities.

[sharesunited]

20. Nice try, Straw Man For A Reason.

[Straw Man]

25. So you deny saying that sales that might cause American deaths are "worse"?

It's there in the text right above you. How else are we to interpret that statement?

[sharesunited]

26. Worse of a daily threat to you and me. Less capable of being dismissed as cartel criminality.

[Straw Man]

27. So you do dismiss the deaths of the cartel's victims.

What other conclusion is there?

[sharesunited]

28. I strongly favor disarming the cartels AND you. How's that?

Nobody anywhere should have bullets enter their body.

And, if I may be permitted, that especially goes for ME.

Yes, I am biased.

[Straw Man]

29. It's a dodge. That's how it is.

You're trying to pretend you never said what you said. And you're likening me to murderous criminals. I started to be offended, and then I considered the source.

Nobody anywhere should have bullets enter their body.

Agreed. When do you propose we begin disarming the military and the police? Right after we've used them to disarm everybody else, I guess.

You're welcome to your biases. You're not welcome to impose them on me. I am no threat to you, nor to anyone else.

[sharesunited]

30. You're not the best person to declare what a non-threat you are.

Your sanity dangles by the same thin thread anyone's does.

Your sense of pride and affront, your level of desperation and despair, your proclivity toward fear, and your ability to rationalize are all significant variables.

I appreciate your trying to reassure me, though.

[Straw Man]

That speaks volumes about your worldview.

A combination of fear, arrogance, and projection.

So you see all people as ticking time bombs, whose "sanity dangles by the same thin thread"? I feel sorry for you. I truly do.

[guitar man]

32. If that's true

Then the police should not be allowed to have guns either. After all, they are humans just like us, therefore their sanity would be dangling by a thread just as thin as everybody else. ;)

[sharesunited]

33. The only reason they need theirs is because you have yours.

[Straw Man]

34. Nonsense.

Following your logic, the Chinese police would disarm because they serve a disarmed population. I wonder why they don't? Civilian ownership of firearms in Japan is virtually non-existent, yet their police are armed. Didn't they get the memo?

[guitar man]

39. The fact that they have theirs

Is precisely why I will keep mine. If would be criminals are indeed "emboldened" by the "power of the gun", imagine how that effect must be magnified by the power of the state and the extreme difficulty encountered in trying to prosecute cops for shooting innocent people.

I'd rather not be on my knees and helpless before such power in the hands of humans whose sanity "hangs by a thread" as you put it.

[sharesunited]

40. You're never going to war with the police. Forget about it.

[guitar man]

43. You're pretty transparent

Most authoritarians are. You don't give a shit about "public safety", it just galls you to no end that the government can't point weapons and dictate to us with impunity.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rl6214]

37. I don't believe any of my bullets have entered your body

or any other bodies for that matter so keep your hands off of my guns and don't worry about them.

[RSillsbee]

22. I do it all the time I find nothing "bizarre" about it NT

[mediator]

24. Every time I see that sort of comment by an antigun "person" I go out and buy more.

Every time. Keep up the good work.

[lawodevolution]

41. A lot of the guns I own are Brady campaign recommendations ;)

[rl6214]

36. Not only can I imagine it

I do it and it's GREAT!

[AtheistCrusader]

10. NO SHIT

We've been saying this for YEARS, every time those jackasses took a trophy picture of 'siezed weapons' containing STACKS AND STACKS of shit that you and I CANNOT PURCHASE IN THE US. Stuff unavailable due to the Hughes amendment, or other destructive device legislation.

(Not mad at you, mad at the morons that have been eating up the 'straw purchaser' bullshit for years)

[appal_jack]

21. k&r n/t

[DU GrovelBot]

31. ## PLEASE DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##

This week is our first quarter 2011 fund drive. Democratic Underground is
a completely independent website. We depend on donations from our members
to cover our costs. Please take a moment to donate! Thank you!

Click here to donate