GUNS IN THE NEWS - Feb 7 - 9, 2004

[CO Liberal]

Please try to adhere to the following voluntary guidelines, in order that we can have an orderly discussion of gun-related news topics:

1 - Feel free to add any CURRENT stories to this thread by replying to this message. In order to be considered current, stories should have been originally posted on the Internet within the previous 24 hours, or provide follow-up to a story that was previously posted on the J/PS board. On Mondays (since many people do not log in to DU over the weekend), stories can be posted from Saturday, Sunday, or Monday.

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[MrBenchley]

1. Van Shooting Linked to Ohio Sniper Case

"COLUMBUS, Ohio - The target area of a shooter behind a series of highway sniper attacks has expanded, authorities said as they confirmed another shooting was linked to the case.
A van windshield was pierced by a bullet earlier this week on Interstate 71. It happened about 15 miles south of where most of the other attacks occurred, authorities said Friday.
The latest case brings the total number of shootings to 21.
Cars, school buses and homes have been shot since May on or near a stretch of Interstate 270 south of Columbus. A car passenger was killed in November. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040207/ap_on_re_us/highway_shootings_6

[MrBenchley]

2. Update: Shots Fired at Two More Vehicles in Ohio

"JEFFERSONVILLE, Ohio - Two vehicles were struck by bullets Sunday in the region where a series of shootings at highway traffic have occurred, law enforcement officials said.
It wasn't immediately clear if the shootings were related to the series of sniper attacks, in which one person was killed.
Police had been told to search for a dark sports car that may have been connected with Sunday's shots on Interstate 71 near a mall about 40 miles southwest of Columbus.
The shots were reported to have come from an overpass, said Jerri Redfern, a Highway Patrol dispatcher. Authorities have said some shots in the previous cases came from overpasses."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040208/ap_on_re_us/highway_shootings_4

[CO Liberal]

94. CBS Radio News Just Reported...

...that the two shootings this weekend are related to the 21 previous shootings.

[MrBenchley]

10. Update: Cops Get Description in Highway Shootings

"COLUMBUS, Ohio - Witness descriptions of a gunman and his vehicle after a pair of highway sniper shootings are the most detailed yet in the series of attacks south of Columbus, authorities said.
A van and a Mercedes car were hit minutes apart Sunday and witness descriptions of the apparent gunman on one overpass and a vehicle parked on another have offered investigators potential leads.
Douglas Berry, the driver of the Mercedes, described the gunman as a middle-aged white male, with a medium build. Another motorist called 911 Sunday, reporting a black sports car on an overpass.
Berry, 51, of Mansfield, said he was driving north on I-71 when he noticed a car pull to a stop on an overpass. "I saw him park his car, get out of it, walk to the rail and take his shot," Berry told The Columbus Dispatch. "It sounded like a boom, a blast." "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040209/ap_on_re_us/highway_shootings_13

[CO Liberal]

15. Related Story: Ohio Youths With Pellet Gun Taken Into Custody

Maybe they should have taken their pellet guns to Duluth, MN. (See Post #3.) - Wayne

* * * * *

Ohio Youths With Pellet Gun Taken Into Custody

Sunday, February 08, 2004

Jeffersonville, OH — Two vehicles were struck by bullets Sunday in the region where 21 shots have been fired into highway traffic, and two juveniles with a pellet gun (search) were later taken into custody, law enforcement officials said.

It wasn't immediately clear if the shootings were related to the series of sniper attacks, in which one person was killed, or if the juveniles were linked to Sunday's shootings, police said.

<more>

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,110792,00.html

[demsrule4life]

3. BB gun control law shot down

BB gun control law shot down
RECREATION:Some Duluth stores now are stocking their shelves with BB guns, air rifles and paintball guns after the city council quietly revoked a longstanding ban on pellet-firing weapons.

http://www.duluthsuperior.com/mld/duluthsuperior/news/7908488.htm

[FeebMaster]

34. You'll shoot your eye out!!!! (nt)

...

[RoeBear]

144. I have a prediction...

...wait for it...



The streets are about to run with vitreous humor.


For those without a nurse in the family:
Vitreous Humor - the transparent, colorless mass of gel that lies behind the lens and in front of the retina and fills the center of the eyeball.

[MrBenchley]

4. Two Dead In Spartanburg County Shooting

Spartanburg County sheriff's deputies are looking for a man they believe killed two women Saturday afternoon.
Deputies said they responded to a home on Farmer Road near Campobello just before 2 p.m. after a woman was reported overdue who might be at the home. When deputies entered the home, they found Clara Dianne Mills and her daughter Michelle Leigh Clary dead of apparent gunshot wounds.
Investigators are looking for the home's owner, Randy Sullens, 36. Deputies said Sullens was Clary's boyfriend. The two women were in the process of moving Clary out of Sullens' home Sunday when the shooting happened.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20040208/lo_wyff/1997533

[demsrule4life]

5. Man Forced To Mow Lawn At Gunpoint Gets 20-Year Prison Sentence

OXFORD, Ala. -- A convicted burglar sentenced in Calhoun County to 20 years in prison this week as a repeat offender had an unusual run-in with his victim.

http://www.local6.com/news/2830379/detail.html


If the assholes dont have anything better to do then still your stuff, might as well put them to work.

[demsrule4life]

6. Man confronts, shoots suspect in shop burglary

A suspected burglar apparently thought using a dog door to sneak into a business was a good idea.
But where there's a dog door, there may be dogs, as the would-be burglar learned.

http://www.amarillonet.com/stories/020704/new_suspectshot.shtml

Also a lesson here that you can't depend on your dogs to protect you.

[MrBenchley]

7. Two teens shot in Liberty City, one dies; no clues found yet (FL)

Police on Sunday searched for clues and witnesses to a Liberty City shooting that left one 17-year-old dead and another clinging to life, the third recent high-profile violent crime involving young people in South Florida.
Johnny Rodriguez and his friend Carlos Ortiz Linares, both 17, were trying to run away from attackers Saturday evening when they were each shot several times in the back, police said.
Investigators didn't know of a motive for the shooting and said that both Johnny, who died, and Carlos, who was in critical condition at Jackson Memorial Hospital on Sunday, didn't appear to be the types of kids to get into trouble.
Family members said the pair had recently reembraced their Christian faith and that Johnny had begun to recruit new members to his church. The two friends were on their way to Carlos' house to hang out when the attack occurred, Johnny's family said.

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/local/7908522.htm

[demsrule4life]

8. Couple fend off home invader

James and Suzanne Butler had retired for the night Friday when a man who they say had been harassing them for a year kicked in their back door and rushed into their bedroom, armed with a rifle and a handgun.

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/News/St.+Louis+City+/+County/42976E688FF68AA586256E350021B201?OpenDocument&Headline=Couple+fend+off++home+invader

[MrBenchley]

22. Well, I'm convinced.....NOT

"About three years ago, James Butler said the couple took pity on Brown, who lived a half-mile from them in a trailer with no electricity and no running water. The Butlers, who live in a rural area about 15 miles southeast of Rolla, gave Brown some odd jobs to do - cutting the grass, clearing out brush.
At the time, Brown was wanted on warrants for burglary, trespassing and other charges related to the Christmas Eve incident.
After the first report of window-peeping, Phelps County authorities went to arrest Brown, but he barricaded himself in his trailer, threatening to kill himself or any deputy who approached. "A negotiator finally convinced him to surrender," Williams said. "

And yet this scumbag doesn't seem to have had a speck of trouble getting guns and ammo. Great illustration of why MORE gun control is vitally needed.

[pnb]

27. How would that have helped this situation?

The scumbag would have been able to get those weapons, or any other weapons, even with more gun control. You just want to make sure that the people being attacked won't have one. How's that help anything?

[MrBenchley]

31. Who are you trying to kid?

"The scumbag would have been able to get those weapons, or any other weapons, even with more gun control. "
What was he going to do? Grow them? Make them out of old cardboard?

For that matter, I didn't see anything in that story saying the couple couldn't pass a background check....or were unwilling to be licensed and register their gun....

[pnb]

46. Nice straw man Bench

Do you think that all people who possess arms in this country now are legal, licensed owners? Where do they get them?

You might try addressing reality some day...

[MrBenchley]

47. Gee, I'm not the one

sticking up for this nutcase.....or pretending he has a right to the guns....

[pnb]

51. Remember the reality comment I made?

Why don't you try it out. I was defending the victim's right to have a gun. I don't know the circumstances of the attacker in question and made no specific comments about him.

[MrBenchley]

54. No, I actually focus on reality

and not the RKBA crowd's rubbish....

"I was defending the victim's right to have a gun."
When was that? When you were crowing, "The scumbag would have been able to get those weapons, or any other weapons"?

Koresh knows the gun lobby has spent millions over the years making sure the scumbag could.

[demsrule4life]

56. Koresh knows shit

last time I checked he was dead.

[MrBenchley]

57. Yeah, but he's the gun rights crowd's little tin god

[demsrule4life]

59. Prove it

show me one thread of any pro gunners here bowing to the throne of Koresh.

[MrBenchley]

63. Gee, there's plenty of gun nuts

all over the web lying their asses off about Waco.

[slackmaster]

71. Appeal to Google Fallacy

Does not address the question at hand.

[demsrule4life]

72. Where can you find this info?

on right wing websites?

[MrBenchley]

75. Like there's a difference

[demsrule4life]

76. I was always told that you cant believe anything you read

on rightwing websites.

[MrBenchley]

78. How come you keep posting crap from them?

[pnb]

60. I love the way you selectively read people's posts

You were the one implying that he would not have been able to get weapons with tighter restrictions. I disagreed and you started in with the meaningless blah, blah, blah, which included you infering that statement to mean I was defending him...only because you choose to live in a fantasy world where people say what you want them to say.

And WTF does Koresh have to do with anything. PLEASE try to just once address a specific topic without going off on wild tangents!!

[MrBenchley]

64. Gee, I quoted exactly what you said

[demsrule4life]

53. What I always suspected

the antis are pro criminal. For without them they have no cause.

[MrBenchley]

61. Yeah, but you also claimed Ed Asner was a communist

De minimis non curat praetor

[demsrule4life]

65. Nice edit

Yes I have called him a communist, but I sure never called him a criminal.

[MrBenchley]

68. Yup....that sums you up nicely..."Ed Asner is a communist"

[demsrule4life]

70. Yep and since I heard it come out of his own mouth

I take it it was true.

[Name removed]

77. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MrBenchley]

84. Funny, Asner describes himself as a Democrat

and the only people saying he's a Communist are rright winng shitheels like Hannity and Newsmax.

"Democratic coordinated campaigns (DNC and state parties) began placing automated calls in key battleground states such as Michigan and Florida in mid- to late-October (for example, the Asner calls started in Florida Oct. 21).  An early message featured Ed Asner talking about Social Security.  The Republican National Committee denounced the "Gore-Asner prank calls" as "scare tactics" designed to "terrify seniors into supporting his candidacy." "

http://www.gwu.edu/~action/demphone.html

[Withergyld]

35. The article does not say how/where he got his guns

"And yet this scumbag doesn't seem to have had a speck of trouble getting guns and ammo. Great illustration of why MORE gun control is vitally needed."

What law would have prevented this, wait we don't even know how he got them!!!

:freak:

[MrBenchley]

36. Gee, with...

<sarcasm>Do you suppose the gun fairy left them under a cabbage leaf for him?</sarcasm>

[Withergyld]

38. How would gun control have prevented this incident

:shrug:

[MrBenchley]

39. Hahahahahahaha....

<sarcasm>How could keeping a lunatic who was wanted by the police from buying guns and ammo have helped? It's a fucking mystery.......</sarcasm>

[Withergyld]

40. Again, the article does not say how where he got them.

"<sarcasm>How could keeping a lunatic who was wanted by the police from buying guns and ammo have helped? It's a fucking mystery.......</sarcasm>"

Did your crystal ball tell you that he bought them?

[MrBenchley]

41. Tell us, with...

do you think Santa left them for him under the tree?

Do you think he made them out of crap he found lying around his trailer?

[Withergyld]

43. Neither option you mention is plausible

Keep speculating. There is no way to say for certain how this could have been prevented until it is known ho he got the firearms.

<sarcasm>It should be noted that the protection order as an effective deterrent.</sarcasm>

[Wcross]

146. A HOMEMADE .32/.380 CALIBRE MACHINE GUN

"The whole firearm was constructed by hand from steel tubing, shaft lock collars and a few nuts and bolts!"

http://www.thehomegunsmith.com/introduction.html

How would the anti-gunners stop this?

[RoeBear]

50. I'll support gun control that keeps guns...

...out of the hands of criminals. What I won't support are laws that ban honest people from owning guns.

I'm not sure if you've ever said what gun laws you'd like to see enacted but I'd be curious as to what they might be.

(other than closing the 'gun show loophole' and the AWB renewal)

[MrBenchley]

9. Witnesses See Gunmen Flee In Fatal Shooting (MI)

A 27-year-old woman was fatally shot in her driveway on Detroit's east side early Monday morning.
The shooting occurred around 3:45 a.m. in the 5000 block of Somerset Street, Local 4 learned. Witnesses said they heard gunshots, then saw two armed men running from the driveway.
The woman -- whose identification was not released -- reportedly died en route to the hospital.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20040209/lo_wdiv/1998965

[MrBenchley]

11. Funeral for Marion deputy slain on job is set for this week (FL)

"Investigators with the Florida Department of Law Enforcement as well as Marion County Sheriff's detectives are still investigating an incident that left a deputy and another man shot dead Saturday.
Litz was killed shortly after noon Saturday when he went to check on 74-year-old Ivan Gotham at 9030 SW 104th Place. Gotham's son had called the Sheriff's Office to check on his father, and he warned that Ivan Gotham was armed.
Litz walked up to the house again. As he walked past a front window, witnesses heard a pop and Litz fell to the ground, and people heard Litz yell that he was hit.
Witnesses then heard multiple shots between deputies and Gotham. Gotham died, but it was not known Sunday if deputies shot him or if he shot himself. Litz died at the scene."

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/state/orl-locdeputy09020904feb09,1,7122822.story?coll=orl-news-headlines

[MrBenchley]

12. City police identify three men killed in shootings Friday night (MD)

"Police have identified three men killed in apparently unrelated shootings that occurred within an hour of each other Friday night.
Shawn Charles Boston, 32, of Essex died of multiple gunshot wounds about 9 p.m. Friday in a car in the 2700 block of E. Eager St., said Agent Donny Moses, a police spokesman.
Officers found him after responding to a report of an injured woman sitting on a front stoop in the 900 block of Belnord Ave. The 34-year-old woman, who had an apparent gunshot wound to the abdomen, told police she and a friend had been shot in a vehicle, which she fled.
In a separate incident, Larry Renea Jones, 26, of the 9200 block of Beowulf Circle died of multiple gunshot wounds about 9:15 p.m. Friday in the 5000 block of Frederick Ave.
In the third killing, James Lavon Lewis, 16, of the 1000 block of N. Monroe St. was shot in the 1800 block of Mosher St. about 9:55 p.m. Friday."

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/yahoo/bal-md.shootings08feb08,0,4465814.story?coll=bal-newsaol-headlines

[Romulus]

143. meanwhile, in densely populated fair-issue NoVA

http://www.wtop.com/index.php?sid=168560&nid=25

Arlington Posts Lowest Crime Rate in 20 Years

Police say the 2003 figures show that the number of serious crimes per 100,000 people was the lowest in more than 20 years. Crime was down in every category, from aggravated assaults to burglaries and vehicle thefts.

The biggest decrease was in larcenies, which were down almost 19 percent. There were also large decreases in burglaries, aggravated assaults and vehicle thefts.

[CO Liberal]

13. Police looking for suspect in shooting (CO)

The new state-wide gun laws have sure made things safer here in Colorado - NOT!!!! - Wayne

* * * * *

Police looking for suspect in shooting

A young man is dead and police are searching for a suspect this morning after a shooting at a home on Whitewood Drive in Colorado Springs on Sunday. Over thirty officers conducted a search for the suspect at a home near Monterey Road Sunday night. However, no arrests were made.

Police say that an elderly couple was asleep in the home on Whitewood Drive at the time of the murder. They awoke after hearing shots and later discovered the the victim's body in their living room. The suspect had fled before police arrived.

<more>

http://www.koaa.com/news/view.asp?ID=1851

[pnb]

29. What is the connection?

"The new state-wide gun laws have sure made things safer here in Colorado - NOT!!!! - Wayne"

What is the connection between those laws and this incident? How does this incident back up your claim?

[CO Liberal]

88. More Guns Were Supposed to Make Us Safer

We've got more guns on the street, and we're no safer.

[MrBenchley]

120. Remember, criminals are supposed to be terrified

by the hidden popgun trick, under much the same theory as the ears on Batman's hat are supposed to work.

[slackmaster]

122. A Straw Man is still a Straw Man

No matter what kind of absurd appendages you hang on it.

[pnb]

152. Let's see

If it was supposed to mean that there would never be a crime with a gun involved again in Colorado, they I guess your post would have indicated failure. But seeing as I doubt that was the case, one crime does not constitute failure, as you seemed to say it did.

[CO Liberal]

153. It's Not Just One Crime

If CCW is such a good idea, crime would be dropping rapidly in every state that has been stupid enough to enact "shall issue" legislation. But it ain't happening, is it?

[CO Liberal]

14. MINNESOTA: Gun law foes work for repeal

The story continues in Minnesota. Underlining emphasis mine. - Wayne

* * * * *

MINNESOTA: Gun law foes work for repeal

BY LISA DONOVAN
Pioneer Press

The pro-gun and anti-gun folks have a deep and defined line in the sand, but on this much they can agree: There is little chance that the state's new liberalized handgun law will be repealed.

It's been nine months and more than 15,000 permits have been issued since the new law passed, and opponents can't point to widespread trouble because of it. Nor can supporters say that public safety has improved markedly.

<more>

http://www.twincities.com/mld/pioneerpress/7908091.htm

[slackmaster]

18. Sounds about right - No measurable effect on public safety

Both extreme positions, pro-permit and anti-permit, are as usual shown to be based on false assumptions and/or emotion.

Here are some questions I'd like to see answered:

- Of the 15,000+ holders of permits under the new system, how many already had one on the need-based system?

- Of the 15,000+ holders of permits under the new system, how many were previously carrying illegally and secretly? Very unlikely we'll ever know, but the possibility that some have gone from illegal carry to legal seems like a good effect.

- Of all people in the state with permits, how often are they actually carrying weapons? IOW is the number of guns "on the streets" growing, and by how much?

[CO Liberal]

20. And Proof That More Guns....

...does NOT equal less crime.

Proving once again that John Lott/Mary Rosh is full of shit.

[Withergyld]

21. Give it more time

from the article:
"It's way too early to tell that. And there's no empirical evidence to indicate either way," said Kevin Smith, spokesman for the Minnesota Department of Public Safety.

[slackmaster]

23. I doubt there will ever be a measurable anti-crime effect

Changes in crime rates correlate with the economy and the weather a lot more than they do with gun control, concealed carry permits, etc.

That's just fine with me. As long as liberalized carry doesn't make things worse there is no rational reason IMO to oppose it.

[CO Liberal]

24. And If It Doesn't Act As A Huge Crime Deterrent....

...there's no rational reason to expand CCW beyond the areas stupid enough to allow it now, IMHO.

[RoeBear]

58. I see, it has to be a HUGE...

...crime deterent. If it's a little crime deterent that isn't good enough.

Riddle me this: if it had zero effect on crime why would you be against CCW?

[CO Liberal]

87. Because...

...I don't want to have to worry about the asshole who cut me off on the Interstate pulling out a gun when I blow my horn at him.

[slackmaster]

89. In California it's illegal to blow your car horn out of spite or anger

The only lawful reason to use it is to avoid an accident. It's technically illegal to issue a friendly social toot to get someone's attention.

From our Vehicle Code:

27001. (a) The driver of a motor vehicle when reasonably necessary
to insure safe operation shall give audible warning with his horn.
(b) The horn shall not otherwise be used, except as a theft alarm
system which operates as specified in Article 13 (commencing with
Section 28085) of this chapter.

I don't know what Colorado law says about that, but I would say that honking at someone just because you think they are driving like an asshole or you don't like them would not be a good idea. CCW permits or not, anyone in the USA might have a gun or other weapon including the car itself, and assholes tend to use weapons when you deliberately do things that piss them off.

[CO Liberal]

91. But Why Make It Easier????

No one has shown me a logical rationale for CCW yet.

[slackmaster]

95. How does having a permit make it easier to carry a weapon?

Loaded pistol, meet hip pocket.

:shrug:

No one has shown me a logical rationale for CCW yet.

And as we've been over dozens of times, I think the burden of proof is on the side that wants to restrict personal liberty to show a reason TO restrict peoples' choices.

[CO Liberal]

97. I'm Not Going To Argue This Point

The whole rationale behind CCW is to get more guns on the street. All I see as an outcome is the potential for more bloodshed. It may not have happened yet, but the potential is there.

And what about MY liberty?? WHat about MY right to not have to worry about some hothead with a gun????

[FeebMaster]

100. And here I thought the whole

rationale behind CCW was to allow people to legally carry weapons to defend themselves.

And what about MY liberty?? WHat about MY right to not have to worry about some hothead with a gun????

You already have to worry about that. Does it really matter if the weapon used to shoot someone was carried legally or not?

[CO Liberal]

104. I Guess Not

Not when there are more of them out there, and my chances of getting shot increases......

[slackmaster]

106. Once again, you have not presented data to show that there are more

guns out there in reality as a result of the change in state laws.

[CO Liberal]

113. It Only Stands To Reason

More CCW permits, more guns on the streets.

[slackmaster]

121. I don't trust common sense or intuition

That which seems obvious is not always true.

[CO Liberal]

130. And John Lott and the NRA Leadership Have Neither

IMHO.

[slackmaster]

132. Two Red Herrings in one

I've never used Lott or NRA leadership as an authority for anything I've ever posted here.

[CO Liberal]

138. But Other Pro-Gunners Have

[FeebMaster]

109. If you say so. (nt)

...

[RoeBear]

114. I really don't see why you are worried...

...about honest background checked citizens carrying concealed. I really don't see you being a threat to anyone. And that by the way is what it takes to get shot by someone with a CCW. You have to threaten their life. So from my knowledge of you, you're good to go.

[CO Liberal]

119. As We've Seen Time and Time Again,,,,

...in these "Guns in the News" threads, it only takes a split second to turn "honest background checked citizens carrying concealed" into killers.

[slackmaster]

128. How many perpetrators in the GITN threads have had CCW permits?

One or two?

And of those, how many times could the permit be even remotely connected to the perp's ability to commit the crime?

[RoeBear]

141. Unless you have some psychological studies to back that up...

...that is just conjecture. I find it hard to believe honest citizens are turning into homicidal maniacs in 'a split second'.

[slackmaster]

105. You are raising a Straw Man from my perspective

The whole rationale behind CCW is to get more guns on the street.

Maybe according to some extremists, but that argument is rarely raised on this forum and has never been brought up by me personally.

And FWIW I do not now nor have I ever bought into that idea, so I'd appreciate it if when discussing the matter with me you'd stick to issues I have raised.

I thought the rationale behind fair-issue or shall-issue or right-to-carry laws was to replace an inequitable, arbitrary system that has obvious potential for abuse with one that treats all citizens equally.

[CO Liberal]

107. Oh....If WE Raise an Issue, It's a "Straw Man"

If you pro-gunners raise an issue, it's well thought-out and logical.

Bullshit.

[slackmaster]

108. That's not MY issue, CO

So please stop acting like it is.

BTW I am pro-choice on guns, not pro-gun.

[CO Liberal]

111. Then Stop Crying "Straw Man"

[slackmaster]

124. I'll stop crying Straw Man when you acknowledge my issues

And stop trying to hang other peoples' ridiculous claims on me.

[CO Liberal]

129. You're The One Who Cried "Straw Man" In Post 105

No one else.....

[slackmaster]

135. Yes, because you presented a position as mine that is not mine

i.e. "The whole rationale behind CCW is to get more guns on the street."

That has never been my position AND YOU KNOW IT!

[CO Liberal]

139. But You're The One Who Cried "Straw Man"

Like that's supposed to end all arguments??????

[slackmaster]

142. No, I meant it as an invitation to put the discussion back on track

Where I am only expected to defend my own positions, not those of others with whom I actually disagree. What is the point of a debate where one side disregards everything the other is saying?

I'm frustrated with the flow of the conversation here. Nobody ever listens to me. Nobody seems to care what I have to say about the issues. I'm here for a little lively exchange of ideas and maybe some mutual understanding.

I'm going to get my taxes done now. Good afternoon, all.

[FeebMaster]

145. Good news CO,

pretty soon, you might not have to worry about people with concealed carry permits at all.

http://www.leg.state.co.us/CLICS2004A/csl.nsf/fsbillcont3/868BE7B8AE3DA28287256E1500638B4D?Open&file=1281_01.pdf

[CO Liberal]

148. Yet Another Moronic Gun Law...

...pushed through the Colorado Legislature by brain-dead asshole Republicans taking their orders fro the gun lobby. To hell with what the people want - there are assholes out there who want their guns.

[FeebMaster]

149. That's democracy in action.

If the people don't want what the legislature is giving them, then the people can get new legislators in the next election.

I thought you'd be pleased. If the law passes, you won't have to worry about who has a concealed carry permit.

[RoeBear]

112. Somehow I don't see you as the...

...horn blowing type. And if you really are I would suggest you stop doing that. Seriously. And it has nothing to do with guns.

[MrBenchley]

26. Florida gave it six years

and violent crime increased 31% from 1987 when the law was passed, and 1993, when the Brady Law passed. Then violent crime declined nationwide...and slower in Florida than in states with saner gun laws.

Which caused the gun lobby to hire Mary Rosh to lie about it.

[slackmaster]

28. Contribution attributed to concealed-carry not statistically significant

Lots of other factors contributed to Florida's crime rates being slightly different than the national trends.

[pnb]

33. What is your source for that?

n/t

[MrBenchley]

37. Posted again and again....

http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/FSAC/UCR/1996/Charts/violent_volume.asp

http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/FSAC/UCR/1996/trends.asp

There were 123,030 violent crimes in florida whne its idiotic CCW law was passed. By 1993, when the Brady law was passed that jumped to 161,789 violent crimes in the state.

<sarcasm>Yeah, that hidden popgun trick worked like a charm. </sarcasm>

[slackmaster]

44. Raw data with NO numerical analysis to support the claim

Whenever someone presents data that appears on the surface to support a conclusion but does not accompany that assertion with numerical analysis or a peer-reviewed article that supports the conclusion, it's a pretty safe bet that the null hypothesis (no measurable effect) is preferable to the claim being made. In the absence of a proper analysis of variance the claim does not rise above the level of a scientific wild-ass guess (SWAG).

Very few people have enough mathematical talent to solve ANOVA problems by inspection. The math teacher's favorite admonishment applies:

"Show your work."

[pnb]

45. So sorry Bench...

...it was actually an honest question, not a "hidden popgun" trick. I've seen you post it before, just couldn't find it.

Also, you leave out some info from the tables you use. According to the violent volume table (although violent rate would be more effective), crime did rise from 87 to 93 by that 31%. But lookee here...from 83-87, the crime volume had risen approximately 45%. Why didn't you mention that the crime volume was increasing at a higher rate BEFORE 87 than after 87 like you mention. It seems as if the number of crimes being committed actually slowed down in its increase, and that doesn't even take into consideration the increases in population that I imagine Florida had at the time. That would be addressed in the crime rate so let's look at your second table...

Regarding the second table you use, again look starting at 1983, the rate went up from 6837.9 to 8479.9 in 1987...an increase of 24%. From 1987 to 1993, the crime rate DROPPED 3%.

So you see Bench, this was no hidden popgun...I WANTED to see these stats again because they actually prove your point wrong. Thank you for being so kind as to show them to me again.

[MrBenchley]

48. The hidden popgun trick is a failure

by any measure...

"crime did rise from 87 to 93 by that 31%."
But remember, the dishonest claim by the gun lobby is that it FELL...which was an outright LIE.

"I WANTED to see these stats again "
Then why not post them yourself? Hmmmmmmmmm?

[pnb]

52. Keep it up Bench...

you keep making yourself look better...LOL

The crime RATE fell in that time...you are the one being dishonest.

Just as dishonest as in your inane question after that ...

"I WANTED to see these stats again "
Then why not post them yourself? Hmmmmmmmmm?

...or did you miss the part of my post where I said I couldn't find them?

You are starting to REALLY reach my friend...

[MrBenchley]

55. I'm quite happy to....

And the hidden popgun trick is a failure by any measure.

[pnb]

62. If you say so Bench...

Whatever you say Bench...

Believe me, no tricks are necessary to show your "points" for the trash that they are...normally just outright lies.

[MrBenchley]

66. I say so and proved it too

"no tricks are necessary to show your "points" for the trash that they are...normally just outright lies."
And I'm used to the RKBA crowd posting outright lies to try to refute the points I make.

[MrBenchley]

67. Men Found Shot To Death In Guste Development (LA)

"Two men -- both of them convicted felons -- were found shot to death Sunday in the Guste housing development.
The bodies of Larmondo Allen, 25, and Edward Taylor, 22, were discovered by police just before 11 p.m.
Investigators said officers heard gunshots as they were patrolling the development. When they arrived at the scene, they saw Taylor laying in the courtyard. He had been shot several times in the head and body. Allen was laying a short distance away. He was shot in the chest."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20040209/lo_wdsu/1999702

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MrBenchley]

79. Proved it

[Withergyld]

80. hahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahah

:dunce:

[pnb]

82. Proved what?

What did you prove and on what basis did you prove it?

And don't tell me to go back and read because I see nothing there that would indicate that. How about your own little synopsis here?

[MrBenchley]

83. Been there, done that

[slackmaster]

86. No, you didn't prove anything

You pulled an assertion out of the air and have steadfastly avoided showing the required numerical analysis to support it, showing only raw data instead.

Show your work, otherwise you get zero credit.

[pnb]

116. You are predictable at least

You obviously know you've proven nothing, can't prove anything.

I talked about the actual numbers YOU provided...and not just one little portion either. Use your own numbers to prove me wrong.

[MrBenchley]

125. Been there, done that

[slackmaster]

30. John Lott/Mary Rosh is a red herring

I for one have never cited any of his (or "her") work.

The only issue that matters is whether or not people with concealed-carry permits misuse their weapons or the privilege of carrying them.

[CO Liberal]

90. That's The MILDEST Thing Anyone Can Call John Lott/Mary Rosh

More appropriate terms include asshole, liar, book-cooker, fraud......

[slackmaster]

126. And a Red Herring is still a Red Herring

No matter how many of them you pull out of the tin.

[CO Liberal]

131. At Least A Red Herring Serves a Purpose

John Lott serves no useful purpose. Other than serving as a bad example.

[slackmaster]

137. Suit yourself

I do not now nor have I ever given a shit what that person says.

[RoeBear]

73. They better get to work...

...because if they don't people will soon realize that there aren't any 'wild west shootouts' happening and that the 'streets aren't running red with blood' as has been (predictably) forecast in every state that has voted in CCW.

They will realize that honest, background checked citizens are no threat and that CCW has no downside.

[CO Liberal]

16. War shapes opinion on gun control (NC)

An interesting gun show story. Especially the part about the rifle vendor who favors tighter controls on handguns - sounds like my kind of people. - Wayne

* * * * *

War shapes opinion on gun control

Updated: 2/9/2004 7:33 AM
By: Lisa Reyes, News 14 Carolina

CHARLOTTE, N.C. -- Hundreds of vendors and gun enthusiasts headed into Charlotte on Sunday for the North Carolina Gun Show.

The show has been a staple in the Queen City for more than 50 years. But as another presidential election looms, gun control and gun safety are on the minds of many.

<snip>

At this year's gun show, Boyette peddled hunting rifles. He acknowledged that many people use guns for sport, and agreed with their right to do it. But, surprisingly, he said he is against handguns.

"Handguns have a useful purpose, but should be controlled better," Boyette said.

<snip>

The Charlotte-Mecklenburg Police Department offered these tips to prevent gun violence in the home: Teach children that guns can hurt and kill.

Tell children not to touch a weapon.

Explain to children that gun violence in the movies, on television shows and video games is not real.

Make sure that all handguns, rifles and shotguns are securely stored in a locked area and out of reach of children.

For added safety, ammunition should be stored in a separate secured area.

<more>

http://www.news14charlotte.com/content/local_news/?ArID=54108&SecID=2

[CO Liberal]

17. Largo man charged with manslaughter in shooting death of friend (FL)

Yet another law-abiding gun owner who apparantly fell asleep during the gun safety class. - Wayne

* * * * *

Largo man charged with manslaughter in shooting death of friend

Monday, February 9th

A Largo man has been charged with manslaughter in the shooting death of his friend.

Gregory Harris, 26, says his friend, Matthew Cales, was handing him the .45-caliber handgun when it went off, hitting Cales in the chest.

<more>

http://www.baynews9.com/site/content/33313.html

[MrBenchley]

19. Shots Fired, Two Hit At NW Jacksonville Apartment Complex

"Two people were shot in a hail of gunfire at a northwest Jacksonville apartment complex overnight.
Jacksonville police are searching for one or more gunmen who they say could be armed and dangerous after the shooting at the Washington Heights apartment complex in the 4200 block of Moncrief Road.
Two people were shot -- one of the victims while inside a vehicle. That car has several bullet holes in it.
One of the victims has minor injuries and was treated at the scene, the other was taken to Shands-Jacksonville Medical Center, but no report on the seriousness of the injury was available. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20040209/lo_wjxt/1999180

[MrBenchley]

25. Man killed in shooting early Sunday (FL)

LAKE COUNTY -- A 26-year-old Lake County man was shot and killed early Sunday, but investigators were releasing few details.
The 17-year-old wife of John Russell Sennett called 911 on a cellular phone shortly before 3 a.m. from the 7-Eleven at U.S. Highway 441 and Wolf Branch Road to report that her husband had been shot, according to Lt. Roger Chilton of the Mount Dora Police Department.
Sennett was taken to Florida Hospital Tavares and then flown to Orlando Regional Medical Center, Chilton said.
Sennett died at ORMC early Sunday, according to a hospital spokesman.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/state/orl-locmcfbriefs09020904feb09,1,6117951.story?coll=orl-news-headlines

[MrBenchley]

32. Uncle Sought In Nephew's Shooting (NM)

"The Grant County Sheriff's Department is looking for Eric Baca, 25, in connection with the shooting of his 13-year-old nephew Thursday morning. The nephew was in critical, but stable condition Thursday night in an El Paso hospital.
Deputies don't know if the shooting of Matthew Baca was accidental or intentional. It happened about 1 a.m. at his grandfather's house. The grandfather said the shooting was an accident. The boy was shot in the stomach. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=375&ncid=375&e=8&u=/ibsys/20040206/lo_koat/1994864

[MrBenchley]

42. Bicyclist Charged With Shooting Motorist (PA)

"MONROEVILLE, Pa. - A bicyclist shot a truck driver in the arm during a confrontation that began when the man pedaling the bike made an obscene gesture, police said.
Robert Urick, 41, was charged with attempted homicide, aggravated assault and weapons offenses.
William Nicoletti, 51, told police that when he drove past Urick in his pickup truck Saturday, Urick made an obscene gesture.
Nicoletti said he turned around and drove toward Urick, who pulled out a pistol and threatened to shoot, police said. Officers said Urick then reached into the truck and shot Nicoletti once in the arm, and rode away on his bike. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040209/ap_on_re_us/brf_bicycle_road_rage_1

[MrBenchley]

49. Two Women Arrested Following Shooting Outside Club (IN)

"Police were called to Club Mecca at 2802 Merchants Dr. around 3:30 a.m. and found two women in the parking lot suffering from gunshot wounds.
Police believe an altercation inside the nightclub continued in the parking lot resulting in the shooting.
One victim was shot in the stomach and the thigh and the other suffered gunshot wounds to the knee, but the injuries were not life-threatening, police said. A third victim was also injured in the fight. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20040209/lo_wrtv/1999013

[MrBenchley]

69. Mother recalls murder of girl (TX)

"LOCKHART - Pamela Lloyd Tutt had awakened before dawn to use the restroom when she heard a knock at the door that was followed quickly by shouting and a violent struggle.
Then came a blast of gunfire, and another.
Lloyd Tutt screamed to her 10-year-old daughter to run, to hide and to find her baby sister, Mytyl. As the little girl screamed the same warnings to her mother in the home in Fort Worth's Stop Six neighborhood, Edward Lewis LaGrone leveled his shotgun and shot ShaKeisha Lloyd dead.
Before he fled from the house in the 2000 block of Amanda Avenue on the morning of May 30, 1991, LaGrone also killed 83-year-old Zenobia Anderson and her sister, Caola Lloyd, who was 76, blind and ravaged by terminal cancer. Dempsey Lloyd, 48, who had challenged LaGrone as he burst through the door that morning, was seriously wounded by two shots but would survive his injuries."

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/local/7906036.htm

[MrBenchley]

81. Police: Gunmen Fire Shots In Party Store Robbery (MI)

"Two men reportedly entered an Eastpointe party store over the weekend, telling everyone to hit the floor as they fired shots at the ceiling.
Eastpointe police said the men walked into Ray's Party Store on Gratiot, north of Eight Mile Road, around 11:45 a.m. Saturday wearing all black, gloves and ski masks. They were armed with a handgun and an AK-47-type weapon, police said.
"We had a bunch of 911 calls when that went down," Eastpointe police Cpl. Martin Genter told The Macomb Daily Sunday.
The men assaulted the store owner with a handgun and stole a large sum of money, according to police."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20040209/lo_wdiv/1999592

[MrBenchley]

85. Man Shot Dead After Leaving Local Tax Office (OH)

"A man walking out of a local business was shot dead Monday, WLWT Eyewitness News 5 has learned.
Few details are available, but witnesses said a man was calm when he approached another man and shot him several times in front of the H&38#;R Block in the Hillcrest Shopping Center, near the intersection of Reading Road and Seymour Avenue in Roselawn.
According to police, the man was shot in the throat and hip at about 1 p.m. The shooter then got into a black Honda Accord, possibly being driven by the victim's girlfriend, and forced her to take him to Springfield Township, police said. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20040209/lo_wlwt/1999840

[MrBenchley]

92. Eagle Scout is murder suspect (WI)

"For five months, Winnebago County investigators were baffled about who killed Glenn Kopitske, 37, a local eccentric with mental health issues whose body was found inside his home in the Township of Wolf River Aug. 2.
But around school, police say, Hirte had been talking about what happened to Kopitske - a lot. About 30 youths later admitted hearing that Hirte had bragged about slaying Kopitske, said Weyauwega Police Chief Curt Field. Many said they thought it had been false braggadocio, but none came forward before Hirte's arrest Jan. 29.
According to the complaint charging him with first-degree intentional homicide, Hirte admitted in a secretly taped phone conversation that he had killed Kopitske merely to "see if he could get away with it." He shot the victim in the back of the head with a 12-gauge shotgun and then stabbed him three times, the complaint states."

http://www.jsonline.com/news/state/feb04/205991.asp

[CO Liberal]

93. Wonder If One Of His Merit Badges.....

...was for "Marksmanship".

[Withergyld]

99. There is NO marksmanship merit badge

:hi:

[CO Liberal]

110. So I Guess It's Safe To Assume...

...that MrBenchley made up the merit badge booklet in his post????

[Withergyld]

115. Look at the cover and tell me how old it is???

That was published in 1963.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3659228772&category=13887
The "Marksmanship" merit badge was discontinued in 1967


How about the official BSA merit badge list??

http://www.boyscouts-marin.org/training/mblist.htm

Hmmmmm, no marksmanship merit badge listed

[CO Liberal]

127. The Entire List from Your Referenced Site

http://www.boyscouts-marin.org/training/mblist.htm


Boldface emphasis mine:

American Business*
American Cultures*
American Heritage*
American Labor*
Animal Science*
Archaeology
Archery
Architecture*
Art
Astronomy
Athletics*
Atomic Energy*
Auto Mechanics*
Aviation*
Backpacking*
Basketry
Bird Study*
Canoeing
Chemistry*
Cinematography*
Climbing
Coin Collecting*
Collections*
Computers*
Cooking
Crime Prevention*
Cycling*
Dentistry*
Disabilities Awareness*
Dog Care*
Drafting*
Electricity*
Electronics*
Energy*
Engineering*
Entrepreneurship
Farm Mechanics*
Fingerprinting
Fire Safety
Fish & Wildlife Mgmt.
Fishing
Forestry*
Gardening*
Genealogy
Geology*
Golf*
Graphic Arts*
Hiking*
Home Repairs*
Horsemanship*
Indian Lore
Insect Study*
Journalism*
Landscape Arch.*
Law*
Leatherwork
Mammal Study
Medicine
Metalwork*
Model Design & Building*
Motorboating
Music & Bugling*
Nature
Oceanography*
Orienteering*
Painting*
Pets*
Photography*
Pioneering
Plant Science*
Plumbing*
Pottery*
Public Health*
Public Speaking*
Pulp & Paper*
Radio*
Railroading*
Reading*
Reptile & Amph. Study*
Rifle Shooting
Rowing
Salesmanship*
Scholarship*
Sculpture
Shotgun Shooting
Skating*
Snow Sports (formerly Skiing)
Small Boat Sailing
Soil & Water Consrv.
Space Exploration*
Stamp Collecting*
Surveying*
Textile*
Theater*
Traffic Safety*
Truck Transportation*
Veterinary Medicine*
Waterskiing
Weather
Whitewater*
Wilderness Survival
Wood Carving
Woodwork*

*** NOTE***

The STARRED* Merit Badges and their respective pamphlets are typically available only by special order.

* * * * *

When I was a Scout (1963 to 1967) there was a Markmanship merit badge - I know because a few boys in my troop had earned it. Apparantly, there are now TWO merit badges for shooting a gun.

[MrBenchley]

102. Could have been "shotgun shooting"

http://www.meritbadge.com/bsa/mb/124.htm

[Wonk]

96. MP3 players for AK-47s

February 9, 2004

A BRITISH-based company is selling MP3 players which can be attached to an assault rifle.

The "AK-MP3" player is built into the ammunition clip of a Kalashnikov and can be swapped with the real magazine.

(snip)

Former Russian rock star Andrey Koltakov, a partner in the dotcom company offering the AK-MP3 for sale, said: "This is our bit for world peace - hopefully, from now on many militants and terrorists will use their AK-47s to listen to music and audio books."

more...

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to look threatening, honest! I was just listening to Dostoevsky on my AK-MP3 player.

[CO Liberal]

98. Ah, Yes... "Music To Inflict Carnage By"

:-)

[FeebMaster]

101. I wonder

if the mp3 playing magazines can be legally imported into the US.


The accessory costs $480 or $965 with hundreds of audio books loaded on to it.

A few more years and they might be cheaper than magazines for bullets.

[MrSandman]

147. No ten audio limit???

[MrBenchley]

103. 7-hour standoff ends with surrender (PA)

"WARWICK TOWNSHIP - A seven-hour standoff between police and an armed man yesterday forced authorities to evacuate homes and businesses and shut down roadways surrounding the man's York Road home.
Thomas John Malone, 52, underwent surgery at Abington Memorial Hospital for wounds to his chest, upper right side, and left side, received during a gun battle with police, authorities said. No one else was injured.
Authorities said the standoff began just before 2 a.m. yesterday, after a woman called police from a nearby gas station. According to the police affidavit, the woman, Christine Marie Heller, 37, said she ran from the home after Malone brandished a loaded gun during a dispute, threatening to kill her. As she was running, she said, she heard several shots fired inside the house."

http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/local/7896200.htm

[pnb]

117. Its a good thing those police showed up with their guns...

Shows how they can help in this situation.

[MrBenchley]

123. Yeah, police are a help....

Remember, last month's "defensive uses of guns" thread took less than 24 hours to degenerate from "Joe Homeowner plugging a burglar" to Old Joe letting loose a few rounds against the cops when they came to arrest him.

[beevul]

150. Keep in mind...

Some folks don't see police defending themselves with firearms as a defensive gun use.:shrug:

[CO Liberal]

151. Also Keep in Mind....

...there is a small number of pro-gunners out there who view the police (and all government officials) as "The Enemy".

[MrBenchley]

118. Largo man charged with manslaughter in shooting death of friend

"A Largo man has been charged with manslaughter in the shooting death of his friend.
Gregory Harris, 26, says his friend, Matthew Cales, was handing him the .45-caliber handgun when it went off, hitting Cales in the chest. "

http://www.baynews9.com/site/content/33313.html

[CO Liberal]

133. I Got This One Already, Bench

Post #17.

[MrBenchley]

136. OOps....

[MrBenchley]

134. City Man Fatally Shot Sunday (CT)

"Family members on Sunday mourned a young man fatally shot outside a Hartford restaurant overnight. They hoped police could quickly find his killer.
Shortly after 2 a.m. Sunday, police responded to a report of a man shot in front of the El Tambro De Oro Restaurant, at Broad Street and New Britain Avenue. They found Luis Gomero, of 19 Sprague St., Hartford, outside, bleeding from a gunshot wound.
He died a little more than two hours later at Hartford Hospital, becoming the city's fourth homicide victim of the year. "

http://www.ctnow.com/news/local/hc-manshot0209.artfeb09,1,3043534.story?coll=hc-aol-yahoo-nws-hed

[MrBenchley]

140. Teenage shooting victim dies (OR)

"A Salem girl who was shot Saturday night died Sunday in intensive care at Salem Hospital.
Shennan Nicole Edwards was 16 years old.
Police responded to a call of a gunshot wound about 10 p.m. Saturday at the Southfair Apartments, 1939 Fairgrounds Road NE. One adult and four teenagers, including the victim, were in the apartment at the time.
Edwards had suffered a gunshot wound to the head. She was taken to Salem Hospital, where she died 12 hours later of her injury. "

http://news.statesmanjournal.com/article.cfm?i=75116