you know that photo

[MyrnaLoy]

you guys parade around to divert the real story about guns going to Mexico? Sure you do, it's the one with fully automatic weapons and tripod mounted light and heavy machine guns confiscated in Mexico. What's the story you tell? Oh yeah, you can't get this stuff in the U.S. so it couldn't possibly come from here.

Well hell, good news!!! You can get that shit in Alaska!!! "The group had stockpiled weapons, including one fully automatic assault rifle, two tripod machine guns, at least one grenade launcher and “dozens of high-powered” assault rifles and pistols, according to the charging document."

They even got themselves a thumper! http://mobile.newsminer.com/bookmark/12441119-No-bail-for-four-Fairbanks-militia-members-in-federal-court-6th-person-charged-

Next time you want to parade that photo around with the lady in the purple running suit looking at tripod mounted machine guns and grenade launchers you may want to remember this case in Alaska. Evidently you can get that shit here!

[diveguy]

1. If i am not mistaken

the machine gun was legally owned. the "tripod mounted machine guns" turned out to be semi auto varients. and the grenade launcher was in fact a 37mm flare gun. But, i havent kept up with this story. I do know at the time these nuts were not charged with illegal possesion of machine guns.

[MyrnaLoy]

2. can you

say the same thing about those weapons in the Mexican photo? Could they have been semi auto variants?

[diveguy]

3. Actually yes

I can tell the differance between semi and auto. The Mexican weapons were for the most part auto. there were a couple semi's. the grenade launchers in mexico were 40mm, which is what the military uses. You can buy a 40mm here with a DD registration. but, good luck finding shells. These guys didnt have the money to pull that off.

These guy's were just nut jobs playing bad-ass's. the mexican's are bad-ass's

[MyrnaLoy]

4. from the Mexican

photograph you can tell it's full auto?

[one-eyed fat man]

7. Go back to Prohibition

Do you think Al Capone sent a someone up through Wisconsin to go buy a fifth of Canadian whiskey over the counter at retail? You think he had a thug at a time smuggle a jug at a time? Capone didn't need to get booze that way nor do the cartels need to buy guns from US gun stores that way.

That 1919 Browning machine gun might have come from the US, too. Then again, as one of the most successful designs of the 20th century, it was used and copies (licensed or not) were produced by many countries, including:

* Australia
* Canada
* Chile
* Costa Rica
* Denmark
* Dominican Republic
* El Salvador
* France
* Greece
* Guatemala
* Haiti
* India
* Ireland
* Israel
* Italy
* South Korea
* Liberia
* Mexico
* Panama
* Philippines
* Portugal
* Rhodesia
* South Africa
* Republic of China
* Thailand
* Turkey
* United Kingdom
* United States
* Uruguay
* Vietnam

Doubtless, some guns produced in the United States find their way to Mexico. You could say with almost virtual impunity any Smith & Wesson came from Springfield, Massachusetts or that a Colt revolver seized by the Mexicans must have come from the factory in Hartford, Connecticut.

There might be a few Colts that were built in Patterson, New Jersey, but General Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna likely brought those back with him as souvenirs from the Alamo.

The MILITARY grade weapons being seized are not coming from the US civilian market. The State Department cables released recently by WikiLeaks confirm that our government is very aware of the fact that U.S military munitions are finding their way into Mexico, and into the hands of narco-trafficking organizations, via a multi-billion dollar stream of foreign military sales and Pentagon arms exports.

http://www.wikileaks.ch/cable/2009/03/09MONTERREY100.html

The diverted military weapons the Pentagon sold to El Salvador, Guatemala, Mexico and other Latin and Central American governments; the Com-bloc weapons from China, North Korea and eastern Europe ARE not coming from the commercial US market. While some low level crooks might smuggle some guns from the US, the cartels are not reduced to buying guns at retail over the counter any more than Al Capone went to Canada buying whiskey a bottle at a time.

[one-eyed fat man]

15. Depends on the clarity of the photograph

Here is a picture of a real select-fire AK, a Chinese one, with the safety selector in the "FULL AUTO" position. Just under the lever you will clearly see the three pins needed for the full-auto fire control components.



Any who really spent any time with a REAL M-16 in the past half century would know that the pin that mounts the the auto-sear is located forward of the rear take-down pin and above the hole for the selector.



The M1919 is harder to tell, you have to open the cover to see that the right sideplate is thicker and the cam is different to preclude machine gun parts from being installed. It is, in fact, legal to own every part of any Browning M1917, M1919, M1921, M2 or the AN/M3 series EXCEPT the right sideplate of the receiver. However, someone with a drill press and a good set of files could make one from SAE4130 flat stock. During World War 2, receivers for those guns were turned out by machine shops as far removed from the gun industry as AC, Sparkplug, Frigidaire, Kelsey-Hayes Wheel, National Postage Meter and others. The old line gun companies mostly produced barrels which took specialized machinery. Any high school shop class could build a complete M1919 machine gun receiver from stock steel given a set of blueprints and a clueless teacher.

I spent 26 years as a tank commander in the Army and I have been shooting and collecting machine guns for 50 years. I remember when I could buy stuff like this through the mail, shipped direct to my door. Request the needed paperwork from the ATF, pay my tax and that was that!

[-..__...]

16. Ahhhh.... the good old days!

When one could buy a 20mm Solothurn for $189.00.

[MyrnaLoy]

19. I was

talking about the 50 cal on a tripod, Scubaguy said he could tell it was a semi-auto version. The photo in question is from the non-slide or bolt side, therefore making it impossible to tell. It's the reason he never responded, he wouldn't be able to point out the differences.

[one-eyed fat man]

20. It's NOT a .50

If you are still talking about the picture with the smug chica in the purple pants. It is a Browning M1919A4 and from the looks of the belt, it is in .30-06. .30-06 was the US service cartridge from 1903 until 1957 and also Mexican service cartridge up through 80's. The US government furnished the Mexican government with box car loads of them. It was chambered for a wide variety of military cartridges including .303 British, 7.65 Argentine, 7.65 Belgian, 7x57 Mauser, 8x57 Mauser, 7.62 NATO, 6.5x55 Swede, and 7.62x54R Russian.

One of the advantages of having an M1919 series gun is that they also made cloth belts an addition to the disintegrating metal link belts like in the picture. The bolt face on the .30-06 caliber gun accommodates rimless cartridges with a .473 head diameter. By simply changing barrels and setting the headspace correctly the gun can easily be converted to shoot 7.62 NATO, or 8mm Mauser. The same applies to the M1917 water-cooled version.

Most of the 1919's were left hand feed with the charging handle on the right. The last of the series, the M37 which saw US service primarily as a tank coax machinegun had a bolt and feed that was switchable and could be fed from either side. There some of these Browning design guns still in service that sixty and seventy years old and work as well now as the day they were built.

[MyrnaLoy]

21. ok

can you tell without a shadow of a doubt whether its full auto or semi auto? If so provide details.

[AtheistCrusader]

22. It was already provided to you.

You would have to open the receiver and look, and possibly measure the thickness of one side plate.

You seem to be assuming it WAS a fully automatic weapon. I don't make such assumptions. It is possible. But given the circumstances, if it came from the US recently, it is likely semi-auto, or it was stolen. Otherwise, the BATFE is going to rail someone for it. All FA weapons legally owned in the US are registered, tracked by the BATFE, and they can even come knocking whenever they feel like it to ensure you still have it. Anyone transferring such a weapon to mexico would be a sorry bugger indeed.

If it is full auto, as another poster mentioned, it was probably in posession of the Mexican Government itself for many many decades.

[MyrnaLoy]

24. help me out here

in once sentence you say, "I don't make such assumptions." In the next sentence you say, "it was probably in possession of the Mexican Government itself for many many decades"

Are you making the assumption that it was in the hands of the Mexican Government for decades? Show me how you know that.

[AtheistCrusader]

29. I qualified that statement.

"If it is full auto, as another poster mentioned"

Seeing as we sold TRUCKLOADS of them from the US Government, to the Mexican Government, and the Mexican Government leaks weapons and materials like nobody's business, (See wikileaks, among many, many sources to corroborate that) IF the weapon IS full auto, that is the most likely source.

Yes, it is possible that it MAY have come from the US civilian market, and found it's way into Mexico. I will list the methods by which this might be possible, in order of liklihood:

1. Theft from a legal owner.
2. Fabrication of new parts to replace semi-auto hindering.
3. Suicidal moron who sold his own registered weapon to a cartel and thinks the BATFE won't come knocking when his weapon is found in Mexico. (Or a fraudulent claim of theft)

1 is somewhat probable, 2 is cost-prohibitive, and 3 is just downright dumbassery.
Since these weapons were firesale'd to the Mexican Government, by our Government, in large quantities, and the Mexican Government has historically been lax in controlling access to it's own arsenals, that is your probable culprit.

This does not rule out:

1. Manufacture in Mexico.
2. Manufacture in any number of countries around the world with licensed patterns, and then smuggled into Mexico.


But no, I do not make the assumption that the weapon in that image is capable of full auto. If it is capable, it does not automatically follow that the weapon was sourced from the US civilian market. There is a much more likely source.

[one-eyed fat man]

31. Pay attention

Explained in post 15, purple Chica's gun on the tripod, you can't tell if it's full auto or semi-auto from the picture. You can't see enough detail.

The M1919 is harder to tell, you have to open the cover to see that the right sideplate is thicker and the cam is different to preclude machine gun parts from being installed. It is, in fact, legal to own every part of any Browning M1917, M1919, M1921, M2 or the AN/M3 series EXCEPT the right sideplate of the receiver. However, someone with a drill press and a good set of files could make one from SAE4130 flat stock. During World War 2, receivers for those guns were turned out by machine shops as far removed from the gun industry as AC Sparkplug, Frigidaire, Kelsey-Hayes Wheel, National Postage Meter and others. The old line gun companies mostly produced barrels which took specialized machinery. Any high school shop class could build a complete M1919 machine gun receiver from stock steel given a set of blueprints and a clueless teacher.

From a practical standpoint, the only reason semi-automatic versions of belt-fed machineguns even exist is the possibility of owning a real machinegun legally was made un-affordable by the Hughes Amendment in 1986. One market for them is re-enactors and living history buffs. Unlike a drug cartel gunman, they are not seriously hampered by a "non-machine" machine gun. Decals and a paint job do not turn your 1.2 liter four-banger into a race car.

The semi-autos are fabricated from real machine guns which various governments around the globe have deemed obsolete and sold off as surplus. There are companies who import these guns, and in bonded warehouses, destroy the parts the ATF requires destroyed. In the case of a Browning pattern machinegun, the part is the right sideplate, and since 2005, the barrel. The semi-autos are built from these parts sets which have had the right sideplates removed and destroyed. A new thicker sideplate with a different set of camming surfaces is riveted in and the internals replaced. The thicker sideplate means that the it is not possible to install the full auto parts as they are bigger than the available space.

As one of the more successful designs of the 20th century it was produced all over the world by at least 80 countries. During World War 1 water-cooled guns of this type would fire barrages of 100,000 rounds a gun a night. That's 400 belts of ammunition, they would add water now and then, replace the barrel every 50 belts or so and keep on hammering. I own one. It will still do that and the thing was built in 1918.

http://www.wikileaks.ch/cable/2009/03/09MONTERREY100.html

The State Department cables released recently by WikiLeaks confirm that our government is very aware of the fact that U.S military munitions are finding their way into Mexico, and into the hands of narco-trafficking organizations, via a multi-billion dollar stream of foreign military sales and Pentagon arms exports. Many thousands of the M1919 series guns were among the military weapons the Pentagon sold to El Salvador, Guatemala, Mexico and other Latin and Central American governments.

So based on the metal link belt hanging out of the left side of the gun it looks like it is in .30-06. .30-06 besides being the service cartridge of the US for over seven decades it was also used by every Latin American country except Argentina and Venezuela, Greece, Norway, Denmark, among others as a military cartridge, particularly from after WW2 until recently.

So, odds are your sweetheart's gun came, as Euro mutt pointed out, "... at a rock-bottom price from some Central American military armorer who'd had it sitting in a corner of the armory since the end of the Cold War."

[Atypical Liberal]

8. You hit the nai on the head.

These guy's were just nut jobs playing bad-ass's. the mexican's are bad-ass's

Exactly. Not only that, but the Mexicans are backed up by multi-billion dollar, mult-national narcotics industries.

[Euromutt]

5. Alaska is right next door to Mexico, isn't it?

Oh wait, no, it's next door to the Yukon and British Columbia. I guess that explains where those Canadian heroin growers are getting their full-auto firepower with which they terrorize entire ridings. Hell, considering the logistics involved in getting weapons from Alaska to Mexico, you might as well go straight to the Chinese. They're not too fussy who they sell weapons to, as long as a) you pay in hard currency and b) there's minimal risk of the weapons being used against the Chinese government.

And for the record, nobody says you can't get "Class III" weapons on the private market in the United States; it's just that the trouble and expense involved isn't worth it for someone looking to outfit the goons for an entire cartel. The going price for a "fully automatic assault rifle" is at least $15K (http://www.impactguns.com/store/machineguns.html), and tripod-mounted MMGs at least $20K, if you can find a seller and deal with the ATF paperwork in the first place. And then you still have to smuggle it across the US-Mexican border. For that kind of money, you could go to organized criminals in China, Bulgaria or Croatia, buy several crateloads of automatic weapons and have them delivered by freighter to some stretch of Mexican coastline that isn't anywhere near as heavily guarded as the US-Mexican border. Given the inventiveness Mexican narcotraficantes have displayed to smuggle drugs into the US from Mexico, moving some stuff from a freighter to the shore in Mexican territorial waters shouldn't be too difficult.

By "the lady in the purple running suit," you presumably mean this gal:


The weapon in that picture is a Browning M1919A4, and I'd say chambered for the original .30-06 (the Israelis rechambered their M1919A4s to 7.62x51mm NATO, which is a shorter cartridge but the same caliber, .30" being 7.62mm). The gun is, not to put too fine a point on it, obsolete technology; it's a medium machine gun, made to be fired from a tripod (which requires a somewhat fixed position). The Germans pioneered the concept of the General Purpose Machine Gun (a machine gun that could be used from a bipod as a light machine gun, from a tripod as a medium machine gun, and as a coaxial and bow machine gun on armored fighting vehicles) 70-80 years ago with the MG34 and MG42, and by 1958, NATO had finally embraced the concept with the American M60, the Belgian MAG (ultimately adopted by the US as the M240; hey, it only took the DoD forty years to work out the M60 was a piece of shit) and the German MG3 (the MG42 rechambered for 7.62x51mm NATO). Nobody in his right mind would shell out $20K+ for this thing if all he cared about was acquiring some automatic firepower. It's far more plausible that some cartel acquired this gun at a rock-bottom price from some Central American military armorer who'd had it sitting in a corner of the armory since the end of the Cold War.

[Remmah2]

10. Just a short swim. nt

nt

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[diveguy]

13. I'm sorry

I went back thru my post's, and i still cant find where i said you cant get them in alaska. I said that i dont think the were auto. And that they were in fact owned legally. So...what statement do you want retracted? And what bullet in what friends face?

On a side note. They should'nt have been allowed to possess weapons with the trouble they were in.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Atypical Liberal]

9. You can actually buy a Browning M1919A4 just about anywhere.

A Browning M1919A4 bought on the legal market will cost you between $14-$15,000. Anyone with a Class III license who pays the appropriate fees and completes the appropriate paperwork can buy one in just about any state in the country.

[AtheistCrusader]

23. And will be curbstomped by the BATFE if they transfer it to Mexico.

Might get away with ONE, with a story like 'whups, it was stolen'. Maybe. If lucky.

[MyrnaLoy]

25. does anywhere

include the US? Why do people in the gun forum say there is no way it came from the US then?

[jeepnstein]

37. The supply is extremely limited.

A full-auto 1919 that is on the registry is far too valuable to sell to some Mexican gun runner. Besides, the trace would come directly back to the last owner who had to pay the tax on it. Full auto guns are available but they aren't widely available. It would take a special kind of fool to sell a U.S. legal 1919 to someone without the proper BATFE paperwork.

I've known a couple of criminals who had full auto on them when they were arrested. Neither gun was U.S. legal. In one case it was a Browning M2 that apparently belonged to the Columbian Army. In another case it was an M16 that belonged to the U.S. Army.

The odds of those guns in your picture being legally owned U.S. registered full-auto weapons are so long it is laughable. Legal NFA owners are not the problem, never have been and never will be.

[AtheistCrusader]

38. Unlikely != No Way.

These weapons cannot be privately transferred at a gun show or anything like that. There is a paper trail to the last owner, and residence. (Plus taxes and fees)

The civilian market leaks VERY few of these. Legit instances of theft are the only way these weapons fall off the BATFE's radar. So not only is the pool of available fully automatic weapons like this extremely limited to weapons registered between 1934 and 1986, and the value quite high, but there is no way to move these around without the BATFE climbing the last owner's frame.

But yes, they can be:

A) Stolen and transferred.
B) A semi-auto can have significant parts replaced with old or newly manufactured parts (including the side plate of the receiver) made to full-auto plans/specs.

People pursuing option B are fully capable of manufacturing the whole thing from bare steel.

[GreenStormCloud]

11. Your post well illustrates why the pro-gun side is winning.

You obviously thought you could prove us wrong on the full-auto guns. You were posting as if you thought that you could go to any gun shop and buy machine guns. But guns and gun law is a technical subject. You had some of your facts wrong. Several posters took you to school. Here is a homework assignment for you. Go into several guns shops and ask to buy a machine gun. Report back on your experience and what kind of gun you are offered.

[-..__...]

12. And yet...

there's no mention of any "tripod mounted machine guns" in the indictment...

http://matchbin-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/public/sites/635/assets/JOQ_indictment.pdf

Current weapons related charges...

3 .22 caliber semi-auto pistols with silencers (1 is homemade).

One or more Military "pineapple" grenades (no quantity given).

Funny that in the indictment they're referred to as being "military or law enforcement issued".

I'd like to know which law enforcement agency has ever been issued fragmentation grenades.

Tear gas grenades and a launcher.

No specifics given, but the launcher can easily be a civilian legal 37mm launcher (which is nothing more than over blown flare gun)...

http://www.37mm.com/

One or more "Hornets Nest" grenades and launcher.

New one on me.

Googling gives two possibilities.

One is a less than lethal, incapacitating grenade used by SWAT teams...

http://www.alstechnologies.com/index.php?page=alsg101

The other isn't actually a grenade, but a shell/adapter that holds 10 .22 cal rounds and is discharged from a launcher...

http://www.alstechnologies.com/index.php?page=alsg101

1 Sten Model MK II 9mm submachine gun (with no serial number).

Best guess on that one is homemade from a parts kit and a scratch built receiver.

FWIW... the Sten SMG is easily one of the simplest, most rudimentary firearms to construct.

It fires from an open bolt, parts and magazines are readily available and the receiver is nothing more than a steel tube.

Simple as it is, there's the question if these yahoos were even able to make it functional or not.

[AtheistCrusader]

17. So the only firearm in the indictment that is Full Auto could have been made in any middle school me

tal shop? No serial or filed off serial number?

Sounds homebuilt to me too.


This thread should be bronzed and installed on a plinth in the Rules, as a dumb thing to post here.

[-..__...]

18. The Cartels aren't exactley known for their sense of humor.

I can only imagine what would happen to any buffoon attempting to arraign an arms deal/package, and deliver that pitiful collection of weapons to the buyers.

[MyrnaLoy]

27. Should be bronzed

right next to the posts in the gun forum that talk about how hard it is to covert or make automatic weapons. You know you've seen them. So which is it, are the easy to build or hard?

[AtheistCrusader]

28. Easy to build.

Hard to convert. Depending on EXACTLY what weapon you are referring to, and when it was made. I am making a generality based on how common certain weapons and parts are. Yes, there are exceptions. They tend to be rare.

Conversion requires the addition of metal where there is none, in most if not all cases. The BATFE is not stupid about requirements to prevent FA conversion. Post 1986, almost certainly. Pre-1986 weapons are in many cases easier to convert. My AR could be converted to a M-16 with a replacement of 6 parts. Posession of these parts is a 10 year felony, of course. But they would drop in and fit perfectly. An AR-15 made 1 year later than mine, would not accept such parts at all. You'd have to completely re-engineer and fabricate tempered parts to make some mutant non-M-16 if you wanted to do it without losing body parts upon firing it. You'd be better off manufacturing the whole thing from scratch, using actual M-16 instructions.

For modification of a full auto weapon, keep in mind the timing on these weapons is precise, and if you don't make it right, it will energetically disassemble itself in your hands. And take your hands and possibly more with it.

The particular weapon in question upthread is not difficult to make from scratch, with commonly available metal working tools. Newer weapons, are harder, and may require very precise CNC cutting tools that are less common, but it can still be done. If you possess the tools to modify, you also possess the tools to manufacture, because fabrication is required.

[MyrnaLoy]

30. For a person

Who claims to not make assumptions you seem to make quite a few. Now you say it seems home built to you. Are you assuming that or do you know it to be home built. You are so right in one respect, this thread is a great example of assumptions, guesses, and wishes. Hopefully others will remember it when another member of this forum parades the infamous purple pant suit photo. Do we both agree now that the tripod mounted weapon could have come from the US?

I know you guys would hate to admit it but WE are the source for many of the weapons killing people in Mexico. If the members of this forum chose to listen and not attack the poster of every thread they disagree with them there may be some great dialog. At best it's just a mass of contradictions, assumptions, and bitterness.

Take just the easy/hard to convert contradiction. It's been said in this thread it is easy. In many threads in the past it is said that it is hard. I think people chose the answer that helps their argument. I believe, for the most part, it is easy with the right tools. I've seen an entire firearm being made from scratch in a backyard shop by my old metal shop teacher.

Back to the tripod mounted weapon for a sec, I think I saw it posted here that drug runners wouldn't pay that much for a full auto version of this weapon because it would be too expensive. I wonder, how much do drug cartels make a year? I bet they could buy as many as they want. I hope you see how silly it is now to use the pant suit photo as some sort of "proof" that weapons are not coming from here. That is getting sillier by the minute. Also, this gunrunner diversion bought and paid for by the NRA is just as silly. The NRA and many of the members of this forum actually want us to believe the BATFE wanted guns to go to Mexico? Laughable. It was, and still is, an operation to discover the sources and routes used in these illegal purchases. Everything the NRA and those who belittle the efforts of the BATFE are trying to do contribute in some small way to every gun that crosses the border. Demonizing the BATFE is actually killing people in Mexico.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AtheistCrusader]

34. No, I specified precisely why I said homebuilt.

There are two possibilities: filed off serial number (which doesn't work, LE have ways of 'raising' filed off numbers) or a receiver that never had a serial number at all because it was made in bill and ted's excellent metal shop.

There is NO assumption here. Only two possibilities. Even war-produced versions of this weapon got armorer's marks, and a serial number, despite how panic-fast they were turning them out.

There is a strong possibility the weapon in that photo came from the US. Of course, the most likely manner it was exported was from the US Government, to the Mexican Government. There are other, far less likely explanations, yes.

I freely admit, some of the weapons used to kill Mexican law enforcement and civilians have come from the US. Some even from the civilian market. You would get a lot more traction in this area if the media and both governments weren't constantly over-hyping the civilian market source. Claiming that Mexican law enforcement are 'outgunned' by machine guns, or the infamous '90%' number, that even CBS has finally blown a hole in. If there was actual data to discuss, presented in an honest manner, it would attract a less acrimonious response.

The BATFE ENCOURAGED gun sellers along the border in question to GO AHEAD with sales that they would have turned down due to suspicious circumstances. The sellers went to do the right thing, and were instructed by the BATFE to do otherwise. Now, I won't pretend that sometimes a sting operation isn't the best way to trace the flow of illicit materials, and that's fine. But they did this without proper controls; the material shipped ended up reaching it's destination, and used in crimes. That is simply unacceptable. Your 'bought an paid for by the NRA' line is laughable, and I don't even like the NRA.

Edit: Misspelling.

[Straw Man]

39. You must think the cartels are idiots.

Back to the tripod mounted weapon for a sec, I think I saw it posted here that drug runners wouldn't pay that much for a full auto version of this weapon because it would be too expensive. I wonder, how much do drug cartels make a year? I bet they could buy as many as they want.

They didn't create a multi-million dollar criminal empire by being so stupid as to pay 10 to 20 thousand dollars for a weapon they could have bought for a few hundred dollars from a source much closer to home.

The NRA and many of the members of this forum actually want us to believe the BATFE wanted guns to go to Mexico? Laughable. It was, and still is, an operation to discover the sources and routes used in these illegal purchases.

Laughable? When you're admitting it yourself? The ATF allowed guns to go into Mexico. What you're quibbling about is the purpose of allowing these guns to go. You say "to discover the sources and routes," others say "to inflate the numbers." The fact remains that innocent people were killed with at least one of these weapons. Bad judgment by a law enforcement agency, any way you spin it.

[one-eyed fat man]

41. Must have struck a nerve.

Didn't like the point about all the money from those saying a little weed never hurt anyone was paying for the bucketloads of dead Mexicans?

Didn't like the crack about smugglers not being so stupid as to buy guns in the US for 20,000 bucks they could get for a couple hundred in Guatemala?

Maybe it was pointing out the breathtaking incompetence that allowed an ill-considered plan to "track" weapons across the border to fall apart when they actually crossed the border. Since the ATF's jurisdiction also concidentally ended at the border they had no one on the southern side to see where they went.

[one-eyed fat man]

32. That all depends

Easy is a relative term.



If you recognize everything in the picture and know how to use them, the problem is a simple one. On the other hand if you have the mechanical aptitude of a turnip and think a "flat bastard" is some kind of insult, it may be beyond your skill set.

In the picture is an AR-15 lower receiver in the process of being machined on a milling machine. It is clamped up to a right angle plate made to give an accurate surface 90 degrees to the table. The dial indicator is there to check the setup to ensure the workpiece is parallel to the table.

It is absolutely legal for an individual to build a semi-automatic rifle from scratch for their own use. There are hobbyists who are perfectly capable of metalwork of sufficient accuracy to make completely functional firearms. Obviously someone with sufficient skill to mill a semi-automatic receiver from a block of 7075-T6 alloy could certainly make a full auto receiver just as readily, but for the moral restraint of US Code, Title 26, Section 5845.

Some people are just naturally clueless, others spend a lot of time and dedication ensuring they are.

[Flyboy_451]

35. ok, can't resist...

looks like a small Bridgeport type mill, Kant Twist clamps holding a raw casting for an AR platform receiver to an angle plate, combination of toe clamps and step blocks used to clamp the angle plate to the table, and that looks like maybe a Brown and Sharpe BestTest indicaor in an Indicol mount attached to the quill. How did I do?? lol

JW

[one-eyed fat man]

36. Close enough. Sounds like you might ....

Have the latest MSC and Wholesale Tool catalogs on the kitchen table. One of these dog-eared and stained with "Magic Tap." The mill is a twenty year old Taiwanese knock-off and the receiver blank was a forging.



You might even know what an A&P/IA is or what someone means by a "commercial/instrument, ASEL, ASES, AMEL" Heck, you could really confuse some people if you know what this is and how to use it.



or this:



Real airplanes have round engines and tailwheels!



I'll be seventy next year, and this past flight physical the doc put a limitation on it requiring "corrective lenses for near vision."

[oneshooter]

42. Jets make noise, props make music.

Just love the sound of the roar of a B-17's 4 R-1820-97 Wright-Cyclones, to the sheer power of a T-Bolt powering up it's Pratt & Whitney R-2800-21.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[rrneck]

43. Heard a P38 once. It was just... sexy. nt

[one-eyed fat man]

44. As much as I truly

believe the part about real airplanes having round engines and tailwheels, if someone said, money no object, you can have just one World War Two airplane, it would be a P-38, hands down, no question.

http://www.kazoku.org/xp-38n/articles/ggfirstflight.htm

http://www.b-29s-over-korea.com/lost_squadron/lost_squadron.html

28 Oct 2002. A small airport in a "bowl" surrounded by mountains in southeastern Kentucky. There were probably 20,000 people on the Middlesboro-Bell County Airport to see "Glacier Gal" fly. I was one of them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97T7Chn_fn0

[Euromutt]

40. Fallacy of Many Questions

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/logic.html#manyq

The complexity of firearms varies quite a bit, depending on the model. Blowback-operated submachine guns that fire from an open bolt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_bolt) are probably the simplest type of repeating cartridge firearm to manufacture, and of these, the Sten is the epitome of simplicity. The Sten was explicitly designed to be manufactured in small machine shops to make it more difficult for production to be disrupted by German air raids, and this feature also allowed resistance groups in Nazi-occupied Poland, Denmark and Norway to produce their own, while after the Second World War, Jews in (then-)Palestine and Indonesian nationalists in the (then-)Dutch East Indies also produced them. Bicycle repair shops were commonly used for this illicit production.

But that's an entirely different proposition from taking a weapon that has been made for the American private market and converting it to full auto, not least because if the ATF deems a design to be "readily convertible," it forces the manufacturer to change it. As a result, a semi-auto-only Uzi carbine bears no resemblance mechanically to a selective-fire Uzi submachine gun.

[MyrnaLoy]

26. did you accidently leave out

Count XXII, you know, the one about hindering the investigation by removing illegal items from one of the residences? I'm sure that one just flew right by you right?