"That assertion's offensive "

[Katya Mullethov]

"I've attended funerals . This isn't something.... this isn't theoretical ..this isn't political , this is extremely real for me . "

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20059360-10391695.html?tag=contentMain;contentBody


Keep it real Daddy-Oh .

[MyrnaLoy]

1. Simple question

What do you think the goal of this so-called gun running operation was?

[Katya Mullethov]

2. They were going to "take down a cartel"

Pretty obvious ain't it ?

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RSillsbee]

9. IDK but it sure generated a lot of mexico gets all their guns from

America so we need another AWB buzz didn't it?

[slackmaster]

19. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions, as the famous saying goes.

It doesn't matter what the goal was.

[beevul]

3. Bwahahahahaha.

Holder was on the hotseat, and he looked it.

Holder: “You have to understand the way in which the department operates. . . This has gotten a great deal of publicity.”

Issa: “There are dead Americans as a result of this of this failed and reckless program, so I would say it hasn’t gotten enough attention, has it Mr. Attorney General?” Todays testimony.

And on tap for tomorow:

“Oversight of the U.S. Department of Justice”
Senate Judiciary Committee
Full Committee
DATE: May 4, 2011
TIME: 10:00 AM
ROOM: Dirksen-226


OFFICIAL HEARING NOTICE / WITNESS LIST:
April 15, 2011

NOTICE OF COMMITTEE HEARING

The Senate Committee on the Judiciary has scheduled a hearing entitled "Oversight of the U.S. Department of Justice" for Wednesday, May 4, 2011 at 10:00 a.m. in Room 226 of the Dirksen Senate Office Building.

By order of the Chairman.

Witness List

Hearing before the
Senate Committee on the Judiciary

On

"Oversight of the U.S. Department of Justice"


Wednesday, May 4, 2011
Dirksen Senate Office Building, Room 226
10:00 a.m.


The Honorable Eric H. Holder Jr.
Attorney General
U.S. Department of Justice
Washington, DC


But wait - theres more:

Newell is about to become a grease stain on the driveway of ATF. He is in full "spin" trying to point fingers and lay blame in a 360 degree pattern to save himself.

There are more than a handful of people who came out long before Gunrunner broke open who made it a point to advise the highest levels of ATF that he was not equiped for a SAC position. These are not the bandwagonners who all of a sudden have an opinion against him. These are people that knew long before Fast and Furious became an international incident that he simply could not manage or lead.

Real good sources confirm that Newell is going back as far as Virginia O'Brien and Lester Martz to fade accountablity for the distaster of ATF's Phoenix Field Office.

How in God's name did Melson, Hoover and Chait ever announce that Newell was going to Mexico in the midst of this? That single event should draw all the question that is needed to challenge their judgement and remove them from their positions.

More from the 5th floor. Some of the die-hards have taken the side of the NRA against Holder. Hallway talk at ATF is that the NRA is right on. If Holder didn't know about 1000's of guns going into Mexico then he should have. If his aide's didn't know they should have. If Holder knew and didn't stop it he is guilty. If his aides knew and didn't advise him then he has done a terrible job of managing his staff and they are all guilty. Lose-lose on this one for Holder and he can blame ATF's braintrust for the boiling oil he is in now.

http://cleanupatf.org/forums/index.php?/topic/153-atf-operation-gunrunnerfast-furiousphoenix-division/


Helmke, sugarman, rand, hennigan, and the rest of them have likely just run their localities of of depends about now.

[iverglas]

6. "“There are dead Americans as a result of this of this failed and reckless program"

pblockquote]Investigators are looking into possible ties between those weapons and the deaths of Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry, Customs Agent Jaime Zapata, and an unknown number of Mexicans.
But hey, dead Mexicans, dead Iraqis ...

One does have to wonder whether, had no USAmericans died, these hearings would be happening at all.

I'm not hearing many objections here this week along the lines of how guns from the US aren't a big problem in Mexico, anyhow. Huh.

I guess these people thought they were.

I suppose I should read up on this whole thing a little more. I'm just wondering what the nub of the issue is. The people who organized the scheme evidently thought that US guns going to Mexico to fuel the cartel's violence were a problem. Presumably they weren't able to come up with a way of stopping that from happening; no way to stop gun dealers from selling to these buyers, I guess, odd though that seems to me. (Huh; that wouldn't have been a problem in Canada with the firearms registry, would it??)

I like to think that the people who organized the scheme were maybe concerned about the loss of lives in Mexico as a result of the supply of firearms from the US. Or was there another reason for them wanting to track these firearms? Serious question; I don't know.

If so, the intentions seem good. A very many Mexican lives are at stake. If the issue is that USAmericans died in the course of implementing the scheme, does this mean that the lives of the Mexicans who are killed with firearms purchased in the US are of no importance? Not worth the US authorities taking action to try to minimize that harm?

Seriously, I don't quite get what the issue is.

[beevul]

7. Yes. You should.

"I suppose I should read up on this whole thing a little more. I'm just wondering what the nub of the issue is."

Yes, you should.

Heres somewhere you can start:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20040877-10391695.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20039204-10391695.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20053961-10391695.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20043411-10391695.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/8300-31727_162-10391695-2.html?contributor=41919&tag=contentBody;correspondant

"Presumably they weren't able to come up with a way of stopping that from happening"

When you facilitate it, that shows your not trying to stop it.

[iverglas]

8. oh my

When you facilitate it, that shows your not trying to stop it.

Well there goes a fair bit of police work right there, I'd say.

Quite apart from the rights and wrongs of operations against drug crime, I think being unable to conduct undercover operations that involve "facilitating" deals in order to get to a source or destination would kind of hamper that effort. Just the first thing that comes to mind, although any aspect of organized crime policing would likely involve similar "facilitation", I'd think.

[beevul]

10. We weren't discussing other forms of police work.

We were discussing letting guns walk across the border. Where the US has no jurisdiction. I thought that context was well implied, but you need it spelled out for you it seems.

And theres this:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110309/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/lt_mexico_us_border_guns

And this:


http://thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/03/robert-farago/u-s-embassy-in-mexico-statement-on-gunwalker-scandal/


Mexico says U.S. never told it tracked guns were passing border

The statement says Mexico would never have allowed arms to enter the country as part of the operation under which U.S. agents permitted the purchase of weapons to build more sweeping criminal cases.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-mexico-guns-20110312,0,3373480.story

Now, I'm sure had this been Canada, and not mexico, where this happened, you'd be peachy-keen with it, right?

[Straw Man]

12. It's the consummation that's the key.

In drug stings, you see, you don't actually let the dealer take the drugs away and sell them. You bust him after he hands you the money and picks up the suitcase. Otherwise, he will sell the drugs to people who will use them, and stopping people from using them is the whole point, don't y'know.

It's the same with organized crime policing: you want to stop the "facilitation" short of actually helping the wiseguys whack people.

The ATF let the guns get away and then were shocked -- shocked -- when the cartels killed people with them: not exactly a well thought-out and executed operation.

And then there's the possiblity that the whole effort is a corrupt, politically-motivated sham and nobody really gives a shit about the victims.

[iverglas]

16. I'm getting a better picture now

I had just assumed there was actual tracking going on ...

Sounds kinda like exposing people to a disease and then waiting for them to show up at the morgue, rather than monitoring them.

[X_Digger]

18. Unfortunately, yes..

Had there been constant surveillance, and coordination with the MX authorities on the other side of the border, the results might be different.

[rl6214]

14. But hey, dead Mexicans, dead Iraqis, dead canadians...

"no way to stop gun dealers from selling to these buyers, I guess, odd though that seems to me. (Huh; that wouldn't have been a problem in Canada with the firearms registry, would it??)"

I guess being canadian you don't understand that full auto weapons aren't going from the US to Mexico. I know you've been away, do a little research on the matter. I'm not saying that no weapons are flowing from the US into Mexico but it is not the HUGE problem that many in the media are making it up to be.


Why the "USAmericans"?

Is this an attempt at some sort of insult?

[Katya Mullethov]

17. If you wanna make an omelet

"Ya gotta break some eggs "

[iverglas]

5. what am I missing?

First, a functioning link:

link

I don't find the quoted material there ...


Oh, I get it. Allow script, get the video ... and then I have to get my speakers connected ...

[Hoopla Phil]

11. I hope we see the responsible parties in jail over this.

And I'm pretty sure the first to go to jail will be sent there on charges of contempt of congress for ignoring the subpoenas.

[rl6214]

13. Holder KNEW he was going to have to testify

Yet he was totally unprepared OR stonewalling. He could have easily found out who was responsible, be had plenty of time.

He didn't want to say who was involved or didn't want to look into it. Covering his own ass?

[beevul]

15. He was stonewalling.

"Yet he was totally unprepared OR stonewalling."


He was stonewalling. While he is many things, hes not stupid, and you can see him trying to ramble...use up time...in the video.

His problem, and the problem of everyone else involved, is that they do not know how much the people grilling them know.


Sooner or later they - meaning holder and others involved - are going to perjure themselves.


And it may have already happened, with holder saying he knew of this issue for only a few weeks - under oath today - which contradicts the facts:


Last night, a reporter from Univision asked President Obama about the subject of a CBS News investigation: allegations that ATF allowed traffickers to send weapons to Mexican drug cartels in an operation called "Fast and Furious." Insiders call the strategy letting guns "walk."


In response, the president said neither he nor Attorney General Eric Holder approved the operation.


"There may be a situation here which a serious mistake was made and if that's the case then we'll find out and well hold somebody accountable," he added.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20046151-10391695.html?tag=cbsnewsMainColumnArea

Note the date there is March 23, with the interview taking place on the 22nd.

And heres a letter from grassley to holder dated february 9, which talks about a meeting in which holder was involved on january 31 in which this issue was discussed:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/48549160/RosettaStone

Maybe its just me, but the quantity of weeks between january 31 and may 3rd, would seem to be more than "a few".


He needs to step down, or be fired.

On edit:


ATF gunwalking: Who knew, and how high up?


by CBS News investigative correspondent Sharyl Attkisson


Since our first report in which ATF agents told us they allowed thousands of weapons to cross into Mexico, one crucial question has been: Who knew -- how high up? This week for the first time, President Obama addressed the controversy. It was in an interview Tuesday evening with the Spanish language network


But who? In an exclusive interview with CBS News, the lead ATF official in Mexico at the time Darren Gil says somebody in the Justice Department did know about the case. Gil says his supervisor at ATF's Washington D.C. headquarters told him point-blank the operation was approved even higher than ATF Director Kenneth Melson.

"Is the director aware of this," Gil asked the supervisor. Gil says his supervisor answered "Yes, the director's aware of it. Not only is the director aware of it, D.O.J.'s aware of it... Department of Justice was aware of it."

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20047027-10391695.html?tag=cbsnewsMainColumnArea<br />


And:


Gun shop owner expressed concerns early on in "gunwalker" scandal


By Sharyl Attkisson


Damning, newly-obtained emails show that a key gun shop owner made explicit concerns in writing last year in the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms' "gunwalking" scandal.


Starting in late 2009, ATF allegedly directed an undetermined number of Phoenix-area gun shop owners to go ahead with sales of thousands of assault rifles and other weapons to suspicious buyers. Insiders claim ATF knew the buyers were connected to Mexico's drug cartels, but let the guns "walk" onto the street anyway in a misguided attempt to obtain intelligence. ATF and the Justice Department have denied that.


In an April 13, 2010 email, the unnamed gun shop owner told ATF he was worried how he'd be viewed if the guns he sold ended up in the wrong hands.


Two months later, on June 17, 2010, the same gun shop owner again wrote ATF's Supervisor Voth again after he saw a Fox News report about firearms and the border. The gun shop owner called the report "disturbing" and stated "When you , , and I met on May 13th <2010>, I shared my concerns with you guys that I wanted to make sure that none of the firearms that were sold per our conversation with you and various ATF agents could or would ever end up south of the border or in the hands of the bad guys... I want to help ATF with its investigation but not at the risk of agents' safety because I have some very close friends that are U.S. Border Patrol Agents in southern AZ."


http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20053961-10391695.html?tag=contentMain;contentBody

And a link to the emails themselves:

http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/gunwalking_emails_041411.pdf



Not trying to drown ya with information, I swear.

Just putting some links with significant dates on it all for your perusal.

[slackmaster]

20. K&R. This is a major scandal that resuted in the deaths of US citizens as well as Mexicans.

:kick: