Pennsylvania Boy Shot While Twins Played With Guns

[onehandle]

HARRISBURG, Pa. -- State police say 12-old-twins were playing with guns at their central Pennsylvania house while their parents were away when one of guns went off, critically injuring one of the boys.

The shooting occurred just before 6 p.m. Saturday in East Hanover Township.

State police say the twins were apparently playing with a .45-caliber semiautomatic pistol and a 357 magnum revolver when the pistol went off and hit one of the boys. The uninjured twin called 911.

Emergency responders transported the injured boy to Hershey Medical Center, where he is listed in critical condition.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/15/pennsylvania-boy-shot-twins-guns_n_862091.html

[ileus]

1. What is rule #1

[rfranklin]

2. I don't know and I guess they didn't either...

Perhaps you can explain?

[shadowrider]

13. Rule #1

NEVER, NEVER point your gun at something you don't intend on shooting.

[RSillsbee]

18. That's not rule 1

Treat all guns as loaded at all times

[shadowrider]

20. You're correct. I blame my mis-statement on being old and forgetful..:) n/t

[onehandle]

3. Arrest warrants and crushing fines for the parents? nt

[ileus]

24. That comes second this time.

[ZombieHorde]

42. Don't get caught. nt

[Tesha]

4. Just another "isolated incident".

One of quite a few that happen every day, with nothing
at all to connect them.

Tesha

[xchrom]

5. +1

[lawodevolution]

6. Gun safety should be taught in school

[eqfan592]

7. Shhhh, that's a rational response to the problem at hand....

...much better to keep the kids ignorant and let things like this happen as often as possible. Otherwise they may have to start making stories like this up to support their cause....

[Tesha]

10. That's pretty funny given the reaction that sex education gets in school.

Nearly *EVERYONE* will grow up to have sex but it's still
a relatively select few that will grow up to have guns,
especially many hand guns.

Guns are still in the realm that if the owners of them
actually *WERE AS RESPONSIBLE* as they routinely claim
they are, all these "isolated incidents" that take
place every day wouldn't happen.

How many hours shall we allocate to "gun education"
versus how many hours shall we allocate to sex ed?
What topics shall we cover and at what ages? Shall
we tell the kids to phone the police (from a safe
location) when they encounter unsafe guns? It is,
after all, the one message we seem to agree should
be communicated to kids vis-a-vis sex.

Tesha

[eqfan592]

11. The vast majority of gun owners ARE responsible...

..but they are also human, and humans do make mistakes. If gun owners were as reckless as you'd lead us to believe, we'd see accidental shootings ranging in the millions per year, which is not even close to the case now.

Kids should be taught about firearms at a very young age and have the mystery removed, and while I don't think it is necessary for them to call 911 the second they come across a firearm, getting an adult would be a reasonable course of action to teach them.

And for the record, I'm all for much improved sex education in schools as well (this abstinence only crap doesn't work worth a damn).

[Paladin]

16. Trust Me On This: The Anti-Sex Ed Lunatics......

...are the very same people who would be ecstatic about having mandatory gun "safety" training in public classrooms. They would fully favor cutting teachers' jobs and classes dealing with "controversial" subjects (biology, American history, etc.)in cash-strapped districts, in order to ensconce the NRA's Eddie Eagle propaganda in as many schools as possible. Such is the sick influence of fanatics whose entire lives revolve around one or two issues.....

[Straw Man]

26. Trust you? No.

You're certainly wrong. I'm in favor of gun safety training as well as sex education, right along with driver education and a crash course in toxic chemicals. I am in favor of none of those other things you've listed up there. I'm not one of "the very same people." No points for the broad-brush attempt to incite culture war.

Interesting that you put safety in quotation marks. What else would you call it when people are instructed in how to avoid just the kind of tragic incident we're discussing here?

[rl6214]

28. "Trust me" Why? Why should we trust you on this matter?

Do you have any stats you can cite for us showing how you are an authority on this? I think yours is the "sick influence" trying to make anyone think you are an authority just by tossing out a claim. I can do that too but when I do there is something to back it up. You don't know anything about most gun owners.

[gejohnston]

34. You are so misinformed

you are confusing Eddie Eagle with New Zealand's Mountain Safety Council's Billy Hook. Eddie Eagle simply is "don't touch it tell an adult". Billy Hook is "unload clear then hand it to an adult, and by the way the shooting sports is good an wholesome for kids."

correction, the Mountain Safety Council no longer operates Billy Hook program, now NZ police does.

Oh yeah, guilt by association does not do an argument good.

[Patiod]

47. +1

[cleanhippie]

49. "Trust Me On This" = "I am making this up, so listen closely"

:puke:

[slackmaster]

50. I'm in favor of sex education and gun safety education in public schools

I mean real gun safety eduction that teaches young people how to safely unload firearms, and the basic rules of safe gun handling (Not Eddie Eagle, which is for small children.)

I also advocate swimming lessons for all.

[PavePusher]

22. "a relatively select few"?

Approx 80M out of 300M is "a relatively select few"?

These words... I do not think they mean what you seem to think they mean....:shrug:

[Tesha]

32. When we think of the multiple-handgun owners*, the number is doubtless much smaller.

*I.e., gun hoarders.

[gejohnston]

35. does that make Jay Leno a car hoarder?

[Tesha]

36. Non-sequitur. (NT)

[gejohnston]

38. how so?

Only because I called you out on word games?

http://tlc.discovery.com/tv/hoarding-buried-alive/articles/hoarding-collecting.html

[PavePusher]

43. I have two hand-guns...

and a .22 cal. conversion kit for one of them.

How do you define "hoarder" in relation to guns?

[rl6214]

27. So tell us how many kids routinely die due to auto accidents

because the "responsible" parents didn't buckle them into their car seats (if they have them) or into their seat belts. And don't spout the crap that guns are meant to kill, cars aren't. That arguement makes it that much worse that parents aren't watching their kids when doing something like routinely driving their cars. How many kids drown when routinely doing something like swimming in their own pool but the parents are too distracted to watch the kids. How "responsible" are the parents being then?

[Tuesday Afternoon]

14. +1

[Patiod]

8. +10

[Tuesday Afternoon]

15. -10

quote marks negated the comment. sarcasm detected.

[Tesha]

17. Oh, how brilliant of you to detect that "isolated incidents" wass being used sarcastically.

But that's only because that's how the pro-gun folks
like to characterize all of these incidents that occur
daily.

Tesha

[Tuesday Afternoon]

21. Pro 2a and thank you very much Miss Anti. Want we should post

every car accident as a reason to do away with cars which, oh by the way, are NOT mentioned in the constitution.

Using other people's misery is a cheap shot at best.

TA

[Tesha]

33. Ahh -- we shpuld only notice when guns save people's property but *NOT* they take children's lives?

> Using other people's misery is a cheap shot at best.

Yeah, sure, whatever you say.

Tesha

[Tuesday Afternoon]

39. you don't see me posting either/or. so, yeah. whatever.

[eqfan592]

51. Self Delete

Self delete

[jpak]

40. Guns bring misery to tens of thousands of American families each year

but at least the victims go to heaven

yup

[eqfan592]

52. Yes, because it's better when people are stabbed to death...

..than shot. At least they are morally superior in some strange way that only people like yourself understand...

[Euromutt]

44. Would you care to specify what incidents you're talking about?

Shootings in general? Unintentional shootings in general? Unintentional shootings of persons under 15 years of age*? Unintentional shootings of persons under 15 years old by another person under 15?

I ask because I have a sneaking suspicion that you might be making a factually incorrect statement one way or another, and I'd like to know which, or assure myself that my suspicion is mistaken.

* - a commonly used definition of "child"

[cleanhippie]

9. How nice, another current events drive by post.

[Logical]

12. Parents should be arrested and charged with a major crime. No excuse. n-t

[rl6214]

29. How would you define a "major crime"

What would you equate it to?

[Logical]

41. If the person dies then Involuntary Manslaughter. At least felony child endangerment. n-t

[blue neen]

19. Did they meet the following criteria:

Were they sane? Did they have criminal records? Were they on any terrorist lists?

Oh yeah, a minor detail is that they weren't of age.

This is a tragedy. The parents were completely irresponsible for not locking up those guns and keeping the key. Adolescents think they're invincible, and they also don't always use common sense. Apparently, neither do some parents.

So, these handguns that these parents probably bought for their own protection have now destroyed their lives.

Maybe the rest of this nation can learn something from this family's misfortune, but it's doubtful.

[Euromutt]

45. "Maybe the rest of this nation can learn something from this family's misfortune"

On the whole, the lesson that can be taken from this incident already has been accepted by the overwhelming majority of "the rest of this nation." The number of unintentional shootings resulting in injury to individuals under 15 years of age is under 900 a year (of whom ~65 fatally). At the risk of sounding callous, in a country of ~310 million people in over 100 million households, that's not a lot; almost as many under-15s die from drowning (~825) as suffer fatal and non-fatal gunshot wounds combined. Around 20 times as many under-15s require medical attention for poisoning than for GSWs, and the number of fatal poisonings is about half again as large as the number of fatal GSWs.
(That's based on averages of the data for the most recent 9 years available from WISQARS, incidentally. Note that all figures apply only to unintentional injuries.)

[blue neen]

46. Yes. I sincerely hope that the situation is different in your part of the nation.

Here in PA (where this most recent accident occurred) there has been a number of these incidents:

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/breaking/s_711108.html

Do you happen to know the actual years of those most recent WISQARS figures?

...and yes, in our area a 12-year-old girl died in an auto accident this weekend because she didn't have her seatbelt on. She had temporarily taken it off to reach for her dog in the back, and that's when her mother crashed into a utility pole.

A tragedy is a tragedy no matter what the cause. It would behoove us all to spend our time more productively by trying to prevent as many as we can.

[Euromutt]

48. Well, you could find the years by checking WISQARS...

http://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/index.html
But to make it short, the period for the non-fatal injury data is 2001-2009, and the fatal injury data 1999-2007.

A tragedy is a tragedy no matter what the cause. It would behoove us all to spend our time more productively by trying to prevent as many as we can.

No argument there. I just don't see how it's productive (no matter how well intentioned you are) to berate the parents in the (at least) 35 million households that possess firearms because 0.003% (that's 30 out of every million, and I'm rounding up in a big way) failed to kid-proof their guns and (more importantly) gun-proof their kids in any given year.

[blue neen]

53. I did check, but to be perfectly honest didn't know where to look for those specific stats...

so, thanks for the info.

I referenced a story in Post #46 about a police officer's son accidentally shooting and killing himself. Here's more to the story:

http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2011/03/04/former-officer-to-stand-trial-after-son%E2%80%99s-death/

This police officer is not being "berated"--he's being charged with a crime. Couldn't this whole situation have been avoided? I happen to think so.

We can't automatically assume that people are going to always use their best judgment, even in their own homes. If we want to kid-proof guns and gun-proof kids wouldn't more information and education be better than sticking our heads in the sand?

The statistics are showing the actual non-fatal and fatal injury data, but they are not showing the number of homes in this country who are in danger of potential gun tragedy. We'll never know what that number is.

I am in no way, shape, or form an expert on gun laws or legislation. I do, however, think honest questions need to be asked---and that the people who ask them should not be assumed as wanting to take guns away.

Thanks for listening.

[eqfan592]

54. Go to this link...

...for the fatal injury information: http://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/leadcaus10.html Just set the options as you wish (make sure to set unintentional injures as the causes you are looking for).

And yes, we can use the stats to tell us something of the number of homes in this nation that are in danger of a potential gun tragedy. If the number was very high, then the statistics should show an uptick in the number of firearms related accidents with children, unless we are going to assume that all those homes were just getting insanely lucky. Clearly the vast majority of people are doing a decent job of keeping their kids safe with firearms in the house.

And keep in mind that many of the posters on these boards have long since revealed their personal agendas when it comes to firearms, so when we see them post a story, we tend to have a pretty good idea of what they are angling for.

Something I think we as progressives (and humans in general) need to understand is that sometimes, things just happen, and no amount of legislating can ever put a stop to that. Yes, there are times where clearly, improved legislation is called for, but we can't legislate away human error, no matter how hard we try. We can try to reduce it with education programs, but we'll never eliminate it. At least not and still remain a free society.

You are right that honest questions do need to be asked at times like this. I guess I'm just saying that we should not always assume that the answers to those questions are some new sweeping and restrictive form of legislation.

[blue neen]

55. Thank you so much for the instruction on the website.

It's a great resource!

It looks like the last numbers for PA are from 2007. It does seem like there has been an uptick since then with the children/firearms accidents in this area, but maybe I'm just paying more attention now.

I understand your point about the personal agendas and truly appreciate your open-minded response. It seems that it's the same old talking points that set me off. Talking points never solve anything because they only address one side of a situation.

We are definitely agreed that the answers to our questions are not always some new sweeping and restrictive form of legislation. At this time, though, it seems that (and I could be wrong about this) that there is a lot more legislation actually being passed that is attacking other constitutional rights more than Second Amendment rights.

If I'm incorrect, feel free to give me the info. I'm here for the education.

Thanks again.

[eqfan592]

56. You're welcome! :)

It's possible there has been an uptick, but is also possible, as you said, that you are simply paying closer attention to it now (or they are getting a bit more media attention). But I honestly couldn't say for certain one way or another.

I would say that you are correct in that other constitutional rights are under more attack than the Second Amendment. In fact, I'd say the Second Amendment has been doing pretty well for the most part as of late (with a few exceptions, of course). But speaking personally, part of the reason I speak on this forum about the Second Amendment so much is that I believe very strongly that the Democratic Party's (and the Progressive movement's in general) position on the Second Amendment and firearm rights in general has cost us a lot of potential support. Support that could go to solving the issues that are the true root cause of crime, such as poverty, poor education, etc. I also believe our entire justice system could use an overhaul. One that concentrates on true rehabilitation.

I've met many people who would be more likely to support Progressive causes like these if not for them feeling that their Second Amendment rights would be threatened. This isn't helped by statements released by organizations such as the Brady Campaign that clearly contradict reality. They see Democratic politicians stand up and make statements that don't even touch reality and lay bare their ignorance of firearms and wonder why they should believe anything else these people say. I cannot underscore how damaging this has been to us and our cause.

There are some here who think this particular forum is pointless because all that ever happens, they say, is constant bickering between the two sides. But it's my hope that folks in the Progressive movement who might be on the fence on this issue will come here and see the facts and statistics and take a more educated stance on the issue than the Brady Campaign would have them take.

[blue neen]

57. +1

:toast:

[slackmaster]

23. Auto-unrec for drive-by "current events" post with nothing to connect it to the forum topics

:nuke:

[rl6214]

25. Boy, scary looking picture

Unrec for no policy statement and biased source.

[blue neen]

37. Here's a different source:

http://www.abc27.com/story/14648891/police-investigating-after-brother-accidentally-shot-twin

[petronius]

30. Very sad. Hope the child recovers quickly and comfortably, and the other kid gets

care and support.

And, that the parents do some serious thinking about their firearms storage method (perhaps with a bit of 'incentive' from the relevant authorities)...

[LAGC]

31. Don't scare me like that!

Posts with scary pictures should be banned.

I thought posting gun porn was against this forum's rules anyway?

I oughta report you... MODS!