Montgomery County man plans to sue Philly PD over open carry-Cops say they were F'ing setup

[RamboLiberal]

A Montgomery County man who carries a handgun on his hip plans to sue the city of Philadelphia after a heated run-in with police. He caught the whole thing on tape and then posted it online.

"It was a nice day, so I was not wearing a jacket and the firearm that I typically carry openly was, as per the normal, unconcealed on my left hip as I was walking along the sidewalk," Fiorino said.

Fiorino was stopped by a Philadelphia Police officer. A heated confrontation ensued. He used a recorder to document the exchange--including his offer to show his firearms license, and his attempts to correct the officer who said he was not allowed to be openly carrying the Glock handgun.

-----

Police spokesman Lt. Ray Evers said the language used in the incident is not acceptable. The department's office of internal affairs is investigating. Since the incident, Evers said, the department has made sure officers know the law.

http://www.newsworks.org/index.php/homepage-feature/item/19583-16lfgunaudio&Itemid=1

Cops claim they were setup

-----

"Do you know you can't openly carry here in Philadelphia?" Dougherty asked, according to the YouTube clip."Yes, you can, if you have a license to carry firearms," Fiorino said. "It's Directive 137. It's your own internal directive."

The cops, department officials later admitted, were wrong. They didn't know that a person who has a license to carry a firearm can openly carry it in the city.

-----

Police spokesman Lt. Ray Evers said the department believes that Fiorino wanted to get into a confrontation with cops, that he wanted to see them lose their cool so he later could file a lawsuit.

Or, as one cop was overheard saying on the YouTube recording: "He set us the f--- up, that's what the f--- he did."

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20110516_Man_who_clashed_with_cops_over_legal_gun_was_also_armed_with_audio_recorder.html

Good I hope he wins. Philly & their cops think they are above PA state law. :nopity: on the Philly cops who didn't know the law. By now they should've been schooled there are some gun owners in PA who open carry and will damn well know the law! Then the damn DA plays CYA by charging him with reckless endangerment and disorderly conduct. Philly if you don't like the damn law get PA state legislature to change it. Good luck with that!

[RSillsbee]

1. I hope he sues Philly PD into receivership NT

[cleanhippie]

2. Setup? Nope. And the cops were wrong, period.

And walking down the street openly carrying is NOT against the law there. Period. How is NOT breaking the law a "setup"?

[Bold Lib]

3. I wouldn't call that a set up. I'd call that a properly prepared person that

was ready to deal with the fall out from an ignorant, authoritarian, over bearing cop. He SHOULD sue and he SHOULD win.

[geckosfeet]

4. Picking on the handicapped. Nice.

[PavePusher]

12. Heh, funny.

But I note that the "handicap" is wilfully self-inflicted, so I can't seem to work up any concern for the poor, pitiful, "we wuz set-up" cops.

Shame on me... :evilgrin:

[geckosfeet]

13. Not so sure. A cop who is enforcing the laws that he has no understanding of?

This is simple ignorance. Poor training. Lack of supervision.

And absolutely unacceptable by any standard.

[rrneck]

5. Sounds like a reverse sting.

If you don't want to get busted, don't fuck up.

[beevul]

6. This is rich.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-vUYeJXSrA&feature=player_embedded


Its the COPS who should be charged with reckless endangerment and disorderly conduct.

[rl6214]

22. He was treated very poorly and unprofessionally but

he should have followed every request the officers made. I hope he wins a big law suit against the PD.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

23. Absolutely...

...and I'm a Philly native.

[virginia mountainman]

7. Philadelphia will learn..

It is well known that Philadelphia has their "own gun laws" that they have made up. Unfortunately according to PA law, THEY DON"T HAVE THAT AUTHORITY..

They are so hard headed on this issue, it will take lawsuits to "teach them" just what the law says.

It is amazing that it takes CIVILIANS to teach the Police law.

[Dawson Leery]

8. Again, the "law" does NOT apply to the protectors of the elite class,

.....I mean the police.

[ileus]

9. How do you set up those who know the law?

[lawodevolution]

10. Yes this is America where civilians bust crooked ignorant cops

Power to the people

[spin]

26. Good point. (n/t)

[YllwFvr]

11. Ive spoken to the man in this story a few times

And im acquainted with philly pd. I have very little sympathy for them. You have nothing to fear if you dont break the law. Cameras shouldnt make an officer keep in line, he should act the same way he always does.

Best of luck M. Fiorino

[Kolesar]

14. Fiorino better not drive 4 mph over the speed limit in that county

They know his license plate number.

[YllwFvr]

16. There has been many encounters with OCers in philly

They know the law. I think they just want to make carrying more difficult than its worth

[Kolesar]

17. Tell it to the judge!

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

[Bold Lib]

18. I think that is exactly were this issue is headed. Care to bet on the outcome?

[YllwFvr]

30. There is no excuse

All officers were informed statewide via yearly training that oc is legal, and new officers are informed in the academy. Its required training. Ive been told many many times in the academy open carry is legal and there isnt much we can do about it. I fully support it and will be respectful to any ocers I see while on duty.

That is what we can tell the judge

[Kolesar]

32. No, I mean when Fiorino gets a speeding ticket, or fails to use a turn signal

Doesn't come to a complete stop at a 4-way, ... he is going to be ticketed. He should make plans to move out of the state soon.

[YllwFvr]

40. There have been several lawsuits

Like this won in the state with no backlash. Of course they werent philly. The Dickson City Dozen is probably the best known and the city isnt doing well. I hope this goes the same, and if philly pd was smart they would be careful taking it out on a guy willing to take them to task. Im all for it, im sick of seeing philly try to ignore the law.

[cleanhippie]

50. So by your last two posts, it seems you aprrove of the abuse of police powers for petty revenge.

Have I got you right?

[SteveM]

69. Would you support these actions so he moves "out of the state...?"

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

20. It would have to be...

...more than 4 MPH over. Only PA state police can use radar.

[SteveM]

68. And I suppose you would oppose this kind of intimidation?

[-..__...]

15. And when all esle fails...

arrest and charge that person for another crime... something... anything, as long as it shows that person who's still the boss...

Ultimately, the D.A.'s Office decided to charge Fiorino with reckless endangerment and disorderly conduct. He's scheduled for trial in July.

[Hoyt]

19. Is this the guy strutting down the street with the recorder on looking for a confrontation?

[rl6214]

24. He's being about as confrontational as you are saying he was

"strutting" when you could have said walking.

Saying packing or toting when you could have said carrying.

Your termonolgy is always confrontational or a veiled insult.

You can't post on here without being confrontational or insulting but that is what we have come to expect from you.

[Hoyt]

25. Naw, he left home looking for a confrontation -- had his recorder on -- Got what he deserved.

Police have enough problems without some SOB trying to stir up trouble.

[spin]

28. Obviously you would prefer to live in a police state ...

I respect and admire police but I oppose allowing them to create their own law and enforce it.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

29. Funny you should say that.

I had similar thoughts about that Bloomberg fellow.

[friendly_iconoclast]

44. Bloomie is one of the elite, and his tactics should not be used by mere gun owners.

Similarly, it's perfectly acceptable for the Brady Campaign and its allies to pursue a boycott against Starbucks.

But if gun owners attempt the very same thing, they get this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x417619

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x417619#417634

"Mean, vengeful psychopaths with a dangerous attitude"



In certain quarters, some animals are more equal than others...

[PavePusher]

53. "They were just looking for trouble"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=417674&mesg_id=418416

[SteveM]

70. You may have forgotten the Civil Rights "days;" you know, testing the laws?

[rl6214]

73. Don't you really mean cops have enough problems without

actually having to know the laws.

[rl6214]

21. How can it be a setup if the cops are too stupid to know the law

My 25yo son had a confrontation with some local cops over the Christmas holiday. He was out about 11pm looking for an address so he pulled over to program it into his gps. He was in a residential neiborhood when the cops pulled up behind him. They asked for his DL and he gave them that along with his CCL. They asked if he had a gun and he said it was on the floor in front of his seat. They had him get out and I believe they retrieve his gun and unloaded it. They asked why he was carrying hollow points. He told them it was for the stopping power and so it would not penetrate walls if in an apartment or house. They told him it was illegal to carry hollow points. They told him to sit in his car and they went back to their car for 15-20 minutes. After this time they came back, gave him his gun and licenses and told him not to reload it until they were gone. Would be nice if the cops knew the laws they were supposed to enforce.

[Hoyt]

27. It would be nice if citizens weren't worried about stopping power.

The setup was the dude strutting down the street with his gun hanging out and his recorder on knowing he would be stopped.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

31. It would be nicer...

...if legislators weren't worried about stopping power, namely stopping people from exercising their basic rights.

[one-eyed fat man]

36. Philly has a history

http://www.lineofduty.com/the-blotter/109540-yesno-woul...

In the last two years, Philadelphia police have confiscated guns from at least nine men - including four security guards - who were carrying them legally, and only one of the guns has been returned, according to interviews with the men.

The civil-rights unit of the City Solicitor's Office confirmed that it is handling eight cases of "constitutional claims that civil rights were violated by us taking their property and by them being falsely arrested." Two of the men interviewed by the Daily News said that they rejected settlement offers from the city ranging from $3,500 to $7,500. One accepted a $5,000 offer.

Two of the security guards said that they were on the job when their guns were taken, and that they were holding licenses issued by the state police to security officers under Pennsylvania Act 235, the Lethal Weapons Training Act.

Despite following the law, all of the men said that they were treated like criminals by city cops who either ignored their rights or didn't know the laws.

Lt. Fran Healy, special adviser to the police commissioner, acknowledged that some city cops apparently are unfamiliar with some concealed-carry permits. Both Healy and Craig Straw, chief deputy city solicitor with the civil-rights unit, said that they could not speak to individual cases because of pending litigation.

In one case, the police told the individual he was being arrested for being "insolent." His crime, loitering at a bus stop. Now, exactly, just what are bus stops for, but to loiter while you wait for the bus to show up.

Apparently the Philadelphia police feel it necessary to remind the "insolent darkies" of their place. Do you really idolize the Frank Rizzo school of law enforcement?

One of the most well known actions taken by Rizzo's police officers were the raids on the Philadelphia offices of the Black Panther Party. The officers performed a strip search on the arrested Black Panther members in front of the news cameras. The picture ran on the front page of the Philadelphia Daily News, and was seen around the world.

That stirred up a few folks. "Of one group of anti-police demonstrators, Rizzo said, 'When I'm finished with them, I'll make Attila the Hun look like a fag.'"

[Katya Mullethov]

37. The City that bombed itself .

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

59. No one accuses Philly cops of...

...lacking aggressiveness.

[JoeyT]

38. Yeah, how dare a citizen "strut" as you say

down the street acting completely lawfully and be dumb enough to expect the cops to actually know what the law is.

Nothing wrong with strutting if you're not doing anything illegal. And anyone that expects a problem with police should have a recorder. I don't take my gun out of the house, but I keep my tape recorder on me at all times.

[Hoyt]

39. The SOB left his house with the intent of causing a confrontation.

Maybe if he weren't like that, he wouldn't feel the need for a friggin gun hanging out of his pants.

[JoeyT]

41. Yeah, that's the exact same argument the people

used against the civil rights protesters when they were harassed too.

Everything he was doing was perfectly legal. If the cop has a problem with lawful behavior, that makes the cop a dick.

[Hoyt]

46. Joey, your comparison of guns to the civil rights movement is shameful. Read some history and think

Unfortunately, it's common for gunners to demean the civil right movement. Guns ain't the same.

There are plenty of things that are legal, but are best left undone. Fucking with police like that is one of them. They have a tough enough job without some screwball walking around with a gun and tape recorder disrupting the neighborhood.

[friendly_iconoclast]

51. Fiorino's method was no different than the ones used by MAIG and the Bradys.

The only difference was its employment against one of your 'elite', and you don't like that.

As the saying goes: "If they weren't doing anything wrong, they had nothing to worry about."

[friendly_iconoclast]

52. Need I point out that much of the civil rights movement entailed confronting the police?

The difference here is this confrontation wasn't Hoyt-approved, demonstrating yet again your desire to have others

conform to your tastes.

[PavePusher]

55. As I've revealed to him several times today. n/t

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

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[beevul]

64. I never claimed it was.

"No, beevul, the right to carry a gun is not same as the right to be viewed as an equal human being."


I never claimed it was.


When I said "civil rights are civil rights", I was in effect saying that they are EQUALLY protected. And of course, thats what everyone here has been getting at. But then, you'd have to pull your fingers from your ears and hear things you dont like, and stop screeching perjoratives at the top of your lungs, to notice.

I know you hate that, and I know you wish things weren't so, but like ol' mickey said:

"You can wish in one hand and crap in the other and see which gets filled first"


:rofl:

[PavePusher]

54. "They were just looking for trouble"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=417674&mesg_id=418416

[Hoyt]

58. You and "interesting parallels." Have you been beaten, chased by dogs, denied job for ethnicity?

Get real.

[Euromutt]

56. Textbook (over)extended analogy fallacy

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/logic.html#analogy

They have a tough enough job without some screwball walking around with a gun and tape recorder disrupting the neighborhood.

How was the neighborhood being "disrupted" other than by Sgt. Dougherty confronting Fiorino at gunpoint for engaging in a perfectly legal activity? If cops have it so hard, maybe they should stick to enforcing what the law actually is, rather than what they want it to be. Fiorino's behavior wouldn't have provoked a confrontation--at least, not one of this magnitude--if Dougherty cum suis had displayed a proper understanding of the law, including reading the PD's internal directive concerning open carry.

[Hoyt]

60. How was Fiorino disrupting neighborhood? -- Try this, walk down street with grenade or machete?

Citizens will be scared. I really don't care if it's legal -- some people are still afraid.

And most people don't know the law because they aren't obsessed with carrying a friggin gun in public.

All they know is some fool, freak, TBagger, racist, terrorist, robber, or douchebag is walking down their city streets -- actually strutting because your buddy was trying to cause a confrontation -- in what many would consider a threatening manner. Personally, I'd just look at the silly fool as someone who needs to grow up and think more about other people.

Finally, if you saw someone coming toward you with a spear gun or machete would you be ready to draw your gun. I bet you would. Why? -- because most people are more responsible than to do something like that in our society. It's just our gun obsessed have decided their perceived safety and attachment to their guns is more important than society.

[beevul]

63. Keep trying.

Its good solid entertainment.

"Finally, if you saw someone coming toward you with a spear gun or machete would you be ready to draw your gun."

Why don't you quit the pretend honesty hoyt.

Asked honestly the question would read:

"Finally, if you saw someone walking toward you in a non-threatening manor with holstered gun would you be ready to draw your gun?"

See what things look like when you actually draw a parallel without using pejoratives? Not to mention that questions end with "?" not ".". I'd expect such a distinguished writer for huffpo would be aware of such things. :rofl:

Let that be your lesson for the day.



"It's just our gun obsessed have decided their perceived safety and attachment to their guns is more important than society."


No, its that our anti-gun obsessed can't seem to get it through their thick semi-functional skulls, that some rights are protected FROM society.

And that means protected from YOU and your anti-civil rights stance on the issue.

[Hoyt]

65. Oh, so you are one of the immature grammar critics! This is a forum, not a dissertation!

As far as I am concerned, when one of the 2 or 3% who tote walks toward me -- it could be a threat unless I'm on the range or hunting (things I outgrew years ago)! If they were carrying a bat, sword, machete, rock or similar object, I'd be on alert! You would too -- that's why I can't understand why you folks carry in public!

[beevul]

66. Bullshit.

"If they were carrying a bat, sword, machete, rock or similar object, I'd be on alert!"

Carrying, as you use the word where guns are concerned, means holstered.



The proper parallel with a bat, is this:




(We'll call those above exhibit A, and those below exhibit B.)


But then you throw sword, and machete and rock in there, and this is what you intend to imply:





And of course this is the image you intend to conjure up with your bat example:

http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/562987/562987,1294491858,1/stock-photo-domestic-violence-young-man-intimidating-a-woman-with-a-baseball-bat-68509285.jpg

"(I'd be on alert)You would too -- that's why I can't understand why you folks carry in public!"

Ibuprofen much?

I've told you a number of times, I don't carry a gun.


Secondly, No, I wouldn't.


And thats because I know the difference between exhibit A and exhibit B.

And thats because I don't see exhibit B everytime I see someone carrying a holstered gun.

You do.


You as much as admitted it.

That or you have been taken equivocation lessons from another poster hereabouts.


I'll tell you what. You tell us.

Which is it?

[Union Scribe]

71. You're in rare boot licking form today, I see.

[Oneka]

72. whats shameful

is your lack of support for ALL RIGHTS for ALL AMERICANS not just SOME,Hoyt approved, RIGHTS for all Americans.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hoyt]

47. Yes, you do/are.

[AtheistCrusader]

45. His pistol was properly, and legally holstered.

Feel free to keep smearing him though. Shows you for what you are.

[rl6214]

42. You didn't read the entire thing

You also use hollow points so your round does NOT go thru multiple walls (or the person you have shot) and accidently hit someone else.

Reading is fundamental.

[RamboLiberal]

33. Back in 97 I had a traffic stop by a little boro cop in Allg County near Pittsburgh

When he asked if I had a gun & I said yes & gave him my LTCF the fool told me he hoped I had no more than 6 rounds cause that was all that was legal. I knew different & had a Sig with 13. I lied cause I didn't want this to turn in to a confrontation. Later a county cop laughed his ass off at Barney Fife when I told the story.

I wish I had wrote his chief a letter. I don't even think I was speeding cause it would've been near impossible to do 55 in that stretch with the curves in a narrow 2 lane road. But I wasn't paying attention to my speed & this was VASCAR. I think he didn't know how to run that as well.

[Heywood J]

34. "Police spokesman Lt. Ray Evers said the language used in the incident is not acceptable."

That's only the beginning of it. It doesn't matter if he was "looking for trouble" - what matters is that the cop had a duty to be professional, respectful, and to know the applicable law when he chose to engage the man. "He deserved it" isn't a valid legal excuse for anything.

[Logical]

35. Cops are assholes when they are proved wrong! False arrest no doubt! n-t

[PavePusher]

48. "they were just looking for trouble"

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/05/17/976876/-They-were-just-lookin-for-trouble-?via=spotlight

Interesting parallels...

[oneshooter]

49. Yes they were being set up.

A trap was set and they fell for it, hook, line and sinker. IF they had handled the situation properly, no gun being pulled and pointed, no handcuffs, no hysterics, then nothing would have happened.

Officer: Good day sir, may I see your permit to carry, and some ID?

Citizen: Yes Sir here it is, along with my DL.

Officer examines documents, and calls in needed information.

Officer: Thank you Sir, have a nice day.

No yelling, screaming or cussing. And more important, NO LAWSUIT!

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[Logical]

67. 100% correct, the Cops were idiots on this one. And the arrest was just because....

they looked like idiots on Youtube. I hope he gets a big settlelment.