Ohio House Passes Bill Allowing Guns Into Bars, Bar Owners Reply ‘Guns And Alcohol Don’t

[cal04]

Ohio House Passes Bill Allowing Guns Into Bars, Bar Owners Reply ‘Guns And Alcohol Don’t Mix’
http://thinkprogress.org/2011/05/17/ohio-guns/

Republican-controlled state houses across the country appear to be touting a new motto: Allow guns everywhere. At the urging of the gun lobby, state legislatures are welcoming firearms into parks, schools, government buildings, university campuses, churches, and day-care centers. Last week, Ohio’s GOP-led house contributed to the nonsensical effort with a bill that allows Ohioans with concealed-carry permits to bring a gun into a bar, restaurant, or “open air arena” like a sports stadium that serves alcohol. The reasoning? Ohioans should be able to protect themselves:

(snip)
The bill does allow restaurants to put up signs barring guns and does prevent a person carrying the gun from drinking alcohol at the same time. This, however, is a barely enforceable caveat that fails to assuage the bill’s evisceration of common sense. A fact that is not lost on the people this bill would directly affect — Ohio bar owners:

“It’s not a good idea,” said Lacy Williams, owner of Lacy’s Sport Stop, 150 Mitchell Blvd. “I don’t want them here. People drinking and guns don’t mix.”

McMurray’s Irish Pub owner Kevin O’Neill had similar feelings about the proposed legislation.

“Guns in bars are bad,” he said. “Guns and alcohol don’t mix.”

[Hubert Flottz]

1. The more drunken teabaggers that gun each other down in the

bondage saloons the less there will be at the polls.

[Kolesar]

2. The Toledo Blade said that Ohio law enforcement didn't want this.

[X_Digger]

11. And law enforcement didn't want miranda, either.

And DAs hate the exclusionary rule.

What's your point?

[Kolesar]

17. Its a stupid idea...eom

[X_Digger]

27. It's stupid because law enforcement doesn't like it?

Is that the sum total of your reason?

[sharesunited]

18. If EMTs didn't want it, would that make a difference?

[X_Digger]

26. No shares, there's no authority boot that I lick. n/t

[Kolesar]

38. until you need help, then you pray for mercy

[sharesunited]

42. That's my theory. Until bullets are entering their body, they refuse to understand.

[X_Digger]

47. I've been shot. Have you?

Oh I forget, you live in a 'nice' neighborhood, where nobody sells any illegal drugs.

How silly of me.

Step out of your little white bread suburbia sometime.

[sharesunited]

48. If you've been shot and you support guns and ammo in the hands of general public

then you have a learning disorder genius.

[X_Digger]

50. I'm not the one claiming the war on drugs made them scarce, "genius". n/t

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[X_Digger]

52. Americans should buy morphine off the shelf at Walgreen!

You see, some of us (a majority of Democrats, I'd surmise) believe that the war on drugs is as much a failed policy as Prohibition was.

The fact that your little authoritarian mind continues to cling to concepts rooted in the temperance movement just illustrates how woefully behind the times you are.

Which one is you, again?

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[X_Digger]

54. Ooh, struck a nerve, did I?

When faced with the logical antecedent of your ill-conceived schtick, you have to resort to association fallacies.

Thanks, next time I don't want to have to listen to your string of mindless drivel, I'll post that up front and save us both some time.

[sharesunited]

56. You've stated your beliefs pretty clearly. They don't belong here.

[X_Digger]

58. Says the guy who'd throw out the fourth amendment?

I know which one of us believes in the constitution, and which one would throw it out.

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[X_Digger]

61. Please repost, with sense this time? n/t

[cleanhippie]

74. Are you REALLY fucking saying that you think we should have separate water fountains?

Separate for whom?

[cleanhippie]

73. And there it is. The petty tryrant speaks.

[beevul]

70. Physician...

Physician, heal thy self:


"Otherwise, fall into line and STFU."

What a petty tyrant you must be.

I don't know whether to laugh at you or pity you.

[oneshooter]

71. I tend more toward the pity side.

And then go direct to the hysterical laughter!

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[cleanhippie]

72. "fall into line and STFU" - MORE of your AUTHORITARIAN bullshit.

What size are your jackboots?

[X_Digger]

46. Why should I give a flying fuck what an EMT thinks public policy should be?

Is there any authority that you don't bend over for? (bowing, of course.)

[sharesunited]

49. How can you possibly hold that opinion? These are the people who dispose of human meat!

The human meat that you encourage with your horrific opinion on death encouraging technology in the hands of the general public?

Human blood and flesh, genius.

Of no concern to you?

[X_Digger]

55. So you won't answer my question?

Or is that you choose not to?

(Ghu help us if you think what you wrote actually is an answer..)

[sharesunited]

45. That's completely unfair to people who save people's lives. They stem the bloodflow genius.

They are not trying to RULE you. They are trying to save you from the injuries which the society you inexplicably pray for inflicts upon you.

I don't know Christ's middle name, but I know it begins with H.

[X_Digger]

57. So do life guards at the fucking YMCA..

Do you think their opinion on guns is more valid than anyone else's? Why?

My mother was an ER nurse for 8 years, and likely saw more gunshots than you ever will in your life. She's against gun control.

See how that works? Opinion of X authority figure is as valid as authority figure Y.

Neither is a basis for sound public policy.


Your appeal to (weak) authority has been noted and dismissed.



Spin the wheel, try again.

[sharesunited]

59. I really can't help it if your mother wasn't affected by treating gunshot wounds.

She may have some superior power of compartmentalization.

The hard bark on her is not a meaningful measure of what gun and ammo policy should be in this country.

She could be Annie Oakley for all I know.

[X_Digger]

62. Still you refuse to answer why X person's opinion should have more weight?

I mean, yah, it's a bullshit logical fallacy, but I want to see you try to rationalize it.

[sharesunited]

63. I'm sorry but I can't see anything other that your emotional attachment for guns and ammo.

And if there is some pro gun sentiment which passes through here from the dead, then I will say the living do not want to make it easier for you to turn the living into the dead.

And so far, from what i've seen, your main theme is turning the living into the dead at the capricious of others.

[X_Digger]

64. So you refuse to answer?

Any other logical fallacies you'd like to back away from, pre-emptively?

I mean, we've got appeal to authority, reductio ad absurdum, red herring, association fallacy.. and that's just today!

[sharesunited]

65. You're trying to shut down my anti gun and anti ammo generic position

by claiming I that have a logical inconsistently in the arguments I make?

Let me assure you that guns and ammo are consistent destructors of society, and I am proud to point this out to you.

[X_Digger]

66. I'm not the one telling someone to STFU and recommending tombstones..

Project much?

LOL!!

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[X_Digger]

68. You've been shut down on topics ranging from guns, to police, to courts, civil liberties, and pols

I'm not the first to call your positions authoritarian, and it's across a wide spectrum of DU topics.

I think you'd be perched squarely in the upper left hand corner..

If you are allowed to remain here with the beliefs you hold, then there is a pandering going on which wants to embrace guns and ammo on an institutional level I cannot relate to whatsoever. And I should look for a new home accordingly.

Yes, it's much easier to invent a conspiracy than to question your own beliefs.

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Drale]

3. I am not a gun fan as many people here know, but

there are two places that guns do not belong at all, and should never ever be allowed. Bars and sporting events.

[Aerows]

5. I strongly support gun rights

And I agree with you 100%. I'll add a third venue - at Town Hall meetings. You just don't bring weapons into places where alcohol is served and emotions run high. It's a recipe for disaster.

[eqfan592]

36. Yet disaster has failed to strike everywhere else this is legal....

...imagine that.

[gejohnston]

41. If you were police commissioner or sheriff,

Would that apply to off duty cops too or are you in the pocket of the cop bar lobby?
Drinking alcohol and carrying, I agree.

[Aerows]

4. No one with any sense

thinks this is a good idea. This is a gift to the gun lobbyists. Teabaggers think this is a good idea as long as they are the only ones with guns. When several of them get their heads blown off in barrooms, they will probably realize it wasn't a good idea. Unfortunately, there will probably be some innocents that are casualties along with them.

[X_Digger]

13. Umm.. you do realize that 42 other states already allow this, yes?

Surely there must be blood running down in the bar nuts in one of these states by now, right?

[Aerows]

25. It's allowed in Restaurants in my state

I notice it's not showing the states where for bars it is legal. I still think it's a bad idea. Restaurants are a different matter - people go to restaurants to eat. People go to bars to drink. Most people don't go to bars to not drink.

Personally, I would not like to be in a bar full of people drinking and carrying loaded weapons. If they are doing it anyway, that's fine - I just don't want to know about it. Openly condoning such behavior just does not seem wise to me.

It makes me rather glad that at this point, I am old enough that I don't regularly go to bars if this is what the typical bar goer thinks is a great thing.

[spin]

30. A designated driver does not go to a bar to drink ...

so there should be no reason why he can't carry concealed.

[X_Digger]

31. Ohio doesn't make the distinction between the two.

Most people don't go to bars to not drink.

A lot here do. Of course we have a pretty good music scene.

The last time I was in a bar, I had a soda. I was the designated driver.

a bar full of people drinking and carrying loaded weapons

There's no reason to believe that those with permits make up a sizable population of OH- in many states, the percentage is 1-2% of the adult population. There's also no reason to believe that permit holders would drink while carrying- which would be illegal under this law.

In multiple states, over multiple years, permit holders have been shown to be rather scrupulous about following the law.

e.g. here is a graph comparing the rate of TX CHL holders and the general public 21+



There were 101 convictions of CHL holders for any crime, out of 400,000 licensees.

Chances are, you'd go to a bar, and never know who was carrying concealed.

[rrneck]

14. What makes you think teabaggers are the only ones with guns? nt

[Aerows]

24. Don't jump to conclusions about what I said

I said "Teabaggers like this idea as long as they are the only ones with guns." They consistently fail to realize that people across the political spectrum have guns. I'm certainly not a teabagger, and you won't find a person that more consistently stands up for gun rights. I still believe, however, that there is a time and a place for everything, and in bars and places where there is alcohol and where judgment can become impaired are not the place for guns.

[jpak]

6. But..but..but....guns in bars will create jobs!!111

for funeral homes and lawyers

yup

[TheWraith]

7. Most states already have identical laws, including right here in New York.

The promised bloodbaths have yet to take place.

1. Someone legally carrying a firearm is not allowed to drink.

2. If someone carrying a firearm does decide to drink anyway, despite it being a crime which can lose them their permit, there's actually really nothing stopping them from also bringing the gun into the bar illegally.

[damntexdem]

8. But if it's illegal, then they can be arrested if caught.

If it's legal, they can't. That makes all the difference in the world.

[TheWraith]

9. And being drunk while carrying is still illegal.

What part of that is complex? Drinking and driving is also against the law, but we don't require that everyone who goes to a bar walk there.

This is for the benefit of people who go to restaurants that serve alcohol, or who have other reasons to be there, like sporting events.

[X_Digger]

10. So put up a sign..

99.99% of people with permits will obey it. Then you can guarantee that the only people who are carrying are thugs and criminals.

Feel safer, then?

[Kolesar]

19. Then harass the proprietors who put up the sign

Boycotts, veiled threats

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x417619

[RamboLiberal]

28. All sides use boycotts including Dems and you know it

Like ColorofChange used a threat of boycott against advertisers of Glenn Beck? Or many here boycott WalMart?

Harassment?

On the no guns sign - fine. Gun owners are willing to take their business elsewhere. And they may politely inform the business why - but a far cry from harassment!

People who don't like guns are perfectly free as well to praise the business & patronize them.

[Kolesar]

37. But only you guys will call a restaurant owner in the middle of the night and harass them

[friendly_iconoclast]

43. You were already busted for *that* prevarication on the other thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x417619#417865


Protip: When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.....

[Name removed]

32. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[friendly_iconoclast]

39. Did you oppose *this* boycott?:

(Spoiler: It has had no known effect)

http://gunvictimsaction.org/

http://gunvictimsaction.org/faqs/how-will-ngac%E2%80%99s-starbucks-boycott-work-why-will-it-be-successful/

How Will NGAC’s Starbucks Boycott Work? Why Will It Be successful?

NGAC will set the start date for the Starbucks boycott and communicate the details to 9 million gun victims their families and supporters, 5 million gun assault survivors their families and supporters—14 million people whose lives have been directly and permanently affected by gun violence. Additionally, NGAC will be working with faith groups and non-faith groups that are working on gun violence reduction. These groups will inform their members of the Starbucks boycott details. By acting in unison—individual group members, gun victims, gun assault survivors and their supporters will create a powerful economic force to achieve the boycott’s objectives. To reach the public at large, traditional and social media (YouTube, Facebook, Twitter, others) and public relations will be employed...

Some animals are more equal than others, it seems...

[Common Sense Party]

12. It's almost as if these bartenders think their product is...dangerous!

Amazing.

[lawodevolution]

15. Whenever the anti-gun lobby comes out with statements that

everyone is against it, all schools and students are against ccw on campus, all bar owners are against ccw in bars, they are just cherry picking.

[Kolesar]

23. You just said absolutely nothing...eom

[cleanhippie]

75. As did you.

[RamboLiberal]

16. To bar owners in OH - if you don't want legal owners with their gun

in your place of business - then have the damn guts to post a no gun sign. Up to you if you can stand losing some pct of business.

[Kolesar]

20. .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x417619

[benEzra]

21. Bar owners can post no-carry signs if they really believe that,

We're fighting the same fight (re: licensed carry in restaurants) here in NC this year. Best wishes to OH.

[Kolesar]

22. .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x417619

[RamboLiberal]

29. Once it passes you'll see some no gun reactions from some restaurants/bars

And in a year or two they will be gone!

In PA I've only seen one restaurant ever post - an IHOP which was new to our area. Sign was gone in a couple of weeks.

All the restaurants that serve alcohol - I've never seen a sign.

[one-eyed fat man]

33. The law here in Kentucky

Kentucky Revised Statutes 244.125

244.125 Prohibition against possession of loaded firearm in room where alcoholic beverages are being sold by the drink.

(1) Except as provided in subsection (3) of this section, no person shall be in possession of a loaded, as defined in KRS 237.060, firearm while actually within the room where alcoholic beverages are being sold by the drink of a building on premises licensed to sell distilled spirits and wine at retail by the drink for consumption on the licensed premises pursuant to KRS Chapter 243.

(2) This section shall not apply to the owner manager, or employee of licensed premises, law enforcement officers, or special local peace officers commissioned pursuant to KRS 61.360.

(3) This section shall not apply to a bona fide restaurant open to the general public having dining facilities for not less than fifty (50) persons and which receives at least fifty percent (50%) of its gross annual income from the dining facilities by the sale of food.

(4) Nothing in this section shall be construed as permitting the carrying of a concealed deadly weapon in violation of KRS 527.020.

(5) Any firearm possessed in violation of this section shall be subject to forfeiture and shall be disposed of pursuant to KRS 237.090.

The law prohibits the carrying of firearms (openly or concealed) in places where the primary business is liquor is sold by the drink, e.g. bars and saloons. It does not prohibit being in a restaurant that serves alcohol. Being drunk while armed will get you arrested, just like being drunk while driving gets you arrested.

Despite drunk driving still being a bigger problem than CCW in no state are you prohibited from taking your car to the bar. While people with guns drinking are a potential hazard, merely having a gun while other people around you are drinking much less so. If there had been a any upsurge is saloon shootings both of the biggest newspapers in the state who strenuously opposed the concealed carry law 20 years ago would have every episode on their front page in 32 point type. Despite predicting "OK Corral" shootouts and the resultant bloodbaths will start any time, they seem profoundly disappointed that none of their dire predictions have come to pass, which strikes me as perverse.

Does it get your knickers in a twist because you can't be tell if the guy drinking ice tea at the next table with the big party is the designated driver or carrying a concealed weapon?

[TheCowsCameHome]

34. What the hell do bar owners know?

Just serve the booze and shut up.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

35. a) Drinking while carrying will be illegal... b) Bar owners can STILL prohibit guns on premesis

I predict not much will change.

42 os the states that allow concealed carry allow people to carry where alcohol is served... Including EVERY state that borders Ohio. Not to mention that carrying while drinking shall remain illegal and owners can still prohibit guns on the premisis.

All this bill does is give people with permits and restaraunt/bar owners MORE freedom and choice instead of the law making the choice for them.

[DissedByBush]

40. This only gives the power back to where it belongs

With the owners of the properties.

They can decide whether to allow guns, where before the government prohibited them from allowing guns on their premises even if they wanted to.

[DeadEyeDyck]

44. the problem is that there is NO uptick

in shootings in bars where guns are allowed. Some studies show a downtick. Explain.

[gejohnston]

76. I know this is off on a tangent, but

I noticed the difference between the comments at Think Progress and here. Here we are actually having a discussion. There, seems like everyone is repeating not only Brady talking points but also each other. The lone dissenter (who simply pointed out that it is legal in most states) had his liberalism questioned. :shrug: :wtf: