So, nobody's going to ban hunting guns, huh? Just the ammo.

[leanings]

"In a recent report, the ATF identified three, .223 and the 7.62 caliber rifles, as the ones most frequently encountered by police officers. These high-capacity rifles, the ATF wrote, pose an enhanced threat to law enforcement, in part because of their ability to expel particles at velocities that are capable of penetrating the type of soft body armor typically worn by law enforcement officers.

Another rifle caliber, the 30.30 caliber, was responsible for penetrating three officers' armor and killing them in 1993, 1996, and 2002. This ammunition is also capable of puncturing light-armored vehicles, ballistic or armored glass, armored limousines, even a 600-pound safe with 600 pounds of safe armor plating.

It is outrageous and unconscionable that such ammunition continues to be sold in the United States of America."

-Teddy Kennedy, advocating an "armor-piercing bullet" amendment to the gun liability bill, 26 Feb 2004.

http://www.congress.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?r108:1:./temp/~r108wfh3dQ:e212550:

There you go, folks. Grandaddy's Winchester 94 in .30-.30 is throwing armor piercing ammunition, capable of knocking out armored vehicles and probably shooting down helicopters. So's your .308 and your varmint rifle.

This is for real-a performance based standard. The current amendment is only supposed to effect ammo designed or marketed as AP. The determination is to be made by the AG. Of course, any centerfire rifle round is designed in such a way as to be capable of piercing body armor, so as soon as an anti-gun AG comes along he can do as he wishes.

It's a cohesive strategy-everything has a label. Sniper Rifle, Assault Rifle, Cop-Killer Bullets, ad infinitum. Facts and other such technicalities are of no consequence.

[CO Liberal]

1. And Some Pro-Gunners Seems to Have All Sorts of Labels....

...for people like me who advocate reasonable gun control. None of which are very flattering......

[FeebMaster]

2. So CO

do you support the Kennedy amendment?

[CO Liberal]

3. Don't Know Enough To Say Right Now

It's time for my pain medication. I'll give it some thought when my back feels better.

[leanings]

5. ooh, bad back huh?

I know that hurts. I re-injured mine this winter slipping on the ice and just kinda catching myself, you know, without falling down? Off my feet for three days and I didn't even hit the ground.

Hope you feel better.

[CO Liberal]

11. Yet Another Car Accident

It happened on Friday. Some asshole pulled over onto the shoulder and proceeded to make a U-turn right in front of me. I swerved to avoid him, but ended up T-boning him. I was doing around 45 MPH (the speed limit on that road) - the entire front and the passenger side of my Chevy S10 are demolished and I reagravated the injuries I sustained in a rear-end collision in 2000 that was aggravated by a second rear-end collision in 2002. Three accidents in less than four years. As a result, I have two herniated lumbar discs, pain down my right leg and across my pelvis, and a right arm that keeps going numb.

I have a doctor's appointment this morning. I hope he has good news.....

[Wickerman]

13. Good luck Co

sorry to hear of your string of bad luck - hope they can do soemthing for the pain.

[slackmaster]

17. Ouch!

CO, I hope things work out OK for you today.

I'm way too familiar with back problems resulting from car crashes.

[Township75]

21. Holy Freaking Crap!!

Wow! You have been defying the laws of statistics with all of those crashes.

Hope you heal well and can enjoy a pain free life again.

[FatSlob]

63. NO WAY!

I agree with Township, you've defied all probability laws. Good luck getting healthy.

[beevul]

65. Ouch

My father had similar injuries to his back, and similar problems with pain and numbness,so I know those aren't at all pleasant.

I hope it gets better for you CO.

Even without any injuries, I would be pissed about the stupidity of the actions of guy you tangled with.

I would be pissed about the S-10 too, they're good little trucks. Owned a couple and currently drive an S-10 blazer sport-factory skidplates and all.

Hang in there CO.

[CO Liberal]

66. Thanks, Everybody

I was at the doctor yesterday - he gave me some botox injections, which lessened the pain. He also x-rayed my entire back and gave me some new prescriptions - a pain reliever and a muscle relaxer. I see him again in two weeks.

Concerning my truck, Progressive called me yesterday. They say they can fix it - it will take about three weeks and $5,500. So I'll be in a rental car for a while (at their expense).

And if any of my posts souond nasty in the next few weeks, it's not me talking - it's the back pain. :-)

Wayne
(CO Liberal)

[slackmaster]

67. Glad to hear you dodged the "total" bullet on your truck

My last vehicle was totalled TWICE during the 17 years I drove it. That bites.

I was at the doctor yesterday - he gave me some botox injections, which lessened the pain.

Did it put a cheerful look on your face too?

:D

Best wishes for a complete and swift recovery!

[CO Liberal]

69. The Injections Were In My Back

Upper back and lumbar area. The took the pain away for a little while, but it came back. :-(

The pain management specialist I'm seeing talked about a procedure to strengthen the two herniated discs, followed by physical therapy. So there's hope - as long as the new accident hasn't damaged thing to the point where repairs can't be made.

[redqueen]

25. Sorry to hear about your pain

Chronic pain is so bad -- many people don't realize it can do permanent damage.

*sigh*

Just another thing these good senators could be doing instead of ranting about outlawing bullets -- working on ending the drug war and the resultant opiaphobia among the medical community.

[alwynsw]

62. Check your inbox

[leanings]

4. Everybody's advocating "reasonable control"

Well, there's an example of what's going to be touted as "reasonable control". Cop-killer armor piercing bullets able to knock out armored vehicles. Of course, the bullets to which Sen. Kennedy refers are the must popular hunting rounds in America and have been in existence for over 100 years. But it's "reasonable control", see, because they can penetrate Level I body armor.

High powered, accurate rifles in .308 or .300 Winmag can hit targets at 1000 yards. They easily lend themselves to assasinations. Only an unreasonable gun nut could defend such terrible sniper rifles.

Semi-automatic rifles can be used to spray down large areas with indiscriminate fire. Any reasonable person would ban assault rifles.

Expensive handguns often fire powerful ammunition and come in compact packages. Reason dictates that pocket rockets like that be taken out of circulation.

Inexpensive handguns are the choice of criminals because of their easy availability. Only the terminally unreasonable would defend a Saturday night special.

Shotguns of all types are very easy to hit a target with at short range, requiring virtually no aim. They're easily sawn off. Double-barrels don't eject an empty shell when fired, leaving no evidence at the crime scene. How can a reasonable society contemplate leaving street sweepers in the hands of the great unwashed?

Yeah, I tend to have a label for people who support the Brady's approach to "reasonable" gun control: incrementalists.

[demsrule4life]

8. Nice post.

[slackmaster]

18. Agreed - Here's MY problem with positions based on "reasonableness"

Inevitably the core of the argument turns out to be one person claiming to have a monopoly on reason, with the implication that anyone who disagrees is not a reasonable person.

See http://www.general-semantics.org/ for a brain boost and ways to raise the level of this or any other discussion.

[-..__...]

29. I guess "common sense" is applicable as well.

As in "common sense gun legislation". How many times have we heard that from Brady/VPC/MMM?

[Superfly]

9. So, you think banning the .223 Rem and .308 Win

is "reasonable"?

[slackmaster]

15. One small problem with Senator Kennedy's amendment

It's not reasonable.

[FatSlob]

20. I use the term

Authoritarian for gun-control. The individuals who support gun control would therefore have authoritarian positions. I prefer individual liberties. There are differences, hence the debate.

[FeebMaster]

6. I just hope they don't forget

to write in the exemption for government agencies. That would be a damn shame.

[WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot]

7. Real Armor Piercing bullets

are already regulated and illegal to own if you are a mere civilian.

Someone needs to explain to Kennedy that the ability to penetrate an armored vest is ENERGY. Given enough energy, any bullet will penetrate armor. Rifles, on average, generate many times the energy of a handgun.

Of course most police officers only wear armor rated for handgun rounds. These vests fall well short of what is needed to stop the average hunting round.

[Redneck Socialist]

10. Guess the next time I go hunting 600 pound safes

I've got enough gun. I was thinking that I needed at least a .338. Those safes are dangerous if cornered.

[MrBenchley]

12. Funny...

Facts are, Ted is right.

[slackmaster]

16. My first laugh of the day

Benchley, I salute you.

:toast:

[FeebMaster]

22. So you're just fine with giving

that kind of power to Ashcroft?

[el_gato]

14. what a bunch of crap

but then again the gun grabber agenda is all about making
us slaves to the government.

[slackmaster]

19. Perfect example of incrementalism in action

If they ban the .308, 30-30, and .223 criminals will start using .270, .222, and 30-'06.

[Romulus]

23. I guess I'd better get cracking

on the Savage m40a1 that I'm planning on building. That way it can be "grandfathered.":eyes:

[redqueen]

24. This is absolutely insane!

Was Moore lying or dissembling in "Columbine" when he asserted that other countries have just as many guns but far fewer gun crimes?

I wish our good liberal senators would focus on a living wage instead! Forget guns - let hunters use .50 caliber if they want! If the government was serious about helping the people of this country they woulnd't be arguing over what size bullets are or are not OK, they'd be working on a living wage or national health care.

Dammit... and I asked for this too... :grr:

[Hammie]

26. Kennedy is a true democrat

Like my .30-30 bolt action is really armor piercing. If a .30-30 is armor piercing then any center-fire rifle cartridge is armor piercing. .30-30 is so old it dates back to before smokeless powder. It is probably the weakest rifle cartridge in common use other than rim-fire ones. He has zero integrity, his words mean nothing.

[MrBenchley]

27. Wow, a member of the RKBA crowd attacking a Democrat

Who is surprised?

[FeebMaster]

28. Having a D after your name

doesn't make you immune to criticism.

[MrBenchley]

30. Is that why the RKBA crowd

keeps dredging turds out of right wing cesspools?

[FeebMaster]

31. I wouldn't know.

I rarely link to any websites.

[MrBenchley]

33. And you don't know a thing about Trent Lott, either

[FeebMaster]

34. Oh I've done a bit of research

and you're right, Trent Lott is up to all sorts of unpleasantness. He still hasn't done anything about repealing any of the current federal firearms laws though.

[MrSandman]

35. Typical gun hugger...

[MrBenchley]

38. Yup...racist, dishonest and crooked...Trent fits the bill

and the NRA even had him as a keynote speaker.

[Columbia]

40. You went to an NRA meeting?

Very.. very.. interesting..

[MrSandman]

75. Not an NRA meeting...

THE NRA meeting

[MrSandman]

42. Good thing I don't hug any guns...

[FatSlob]

64. I don't hug mine either.

Gun oil stains my shirts.

[slackmaster]

68. Nor do I

CLP messes up my clothes.

[MrSandman]

74. I hear Glock solved that problem...

Less friction with plastic

[MrBenchley]

36. Yeah? Why don't you tell us about some?

[FeebMaster]

37. Some what? (nt)

...

[MrBenchley]

39. Tell us about Trent's unpleasantness, of course

[FeebMaster]

41. Oh the usual

racist, dishonest, and crooked stuff.

Weren't we talking about how having a D after your name doesn't make you immune to criticism? I believe I also mentioned something about how I generally don't link to websites. I'm not sure how we ended up talking about Trent Lott again. Like I've said before, he isn't my senator and I don't agree with him on, well, anything.

[MrBenchley]

43. YOU were talking about how having a D after your name....

...doesn't make you immune to criticism?

Guess we can see from your answer that having an R DOES grant that immunity.

[MrSandman]

44. Good thing that wasn't fawning praise

[FeebMaster]

45. No one has said

anything about Republicans being immune from criticism.

[MrBenchley]

46. I did....but then I'm noticing what a fine job

the RKBA crowd here is doing trying to avoid saying anything bad about Trent Lott.

That would be the same RKBA crowd, by and large, that's over in the other thread proclaiming that they're not going to vote Democratic.

[FeebMaster]

47. You're the one that brought up Trent Lott.

It looks to me like most of the RKBA crowd does intend to vote Democratic.

[MrBenchley]

48. And you're the one still dancing around

so I guess the racist asswipe has some immunity to any criticism from YOU.

"It looks to me like most of the RKBA crowd does intend to vote Democratic."
Then I guess you haven't seen lunabush's thread....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x42201

[FeebMaster]

49. I'm not dancing around anything.

I don't like Trent Lott. Say it with me: I don't like Trent Lott.

I've been to lunabush's thread, and it looks to me like most of the rkba voted for and plans to vote for Democrats with a few exceptions.

[MrBenchley]

50. And yet we still don't hear ANY actual criticism

And right at this moment in the thread there are six members of the RKBA crowd shouting that they're not going to vote Democratic...and of the three that claim they are, all three are voting for somebody who's dropped out of the race.

[FeebMaster]

51. What kind of criticism do you want?

I think Trent Lott is an authoritarian asshole. I would like nothing more than to see him replaced. Is that good enough for you? What, do you want me to sacrifice my firstborn to put a hex on the guy?

So they voted for people who dropped out of the race. We're talking about primaries here. Maybe they voted for them before they dropped out. In any case we're talking about the primaries.

[MrBenchley]

52. Gee, something specific would be nice

For example, the imbecile got caught yearning for the good old days of segregation at Strom Thurmond's birthday party....

"I think Trent Lott is an authoritarian asshole."
And he's about as pro-gun as it gets.

"In any case we're talking about the primaries."
Which still makes it six to three...

[FeebMaster]

53. I think that I'm far

more pro-gun than Trent Lott is.

[MrBenchley]

54. And you're welcome to that extremist position

[FeebMaster]

55. Thank you.

I'm fortunate to have your approval.

[MrBenchley]

56. Approval? Hahahahahahaha....

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MrBenchley]

58. Nope...just facts and truth from me

1) "Stoker (33 posts) I'll probably stay at home on election day. "
2) "demsrule4life   Nobody worth voting for. "
3) "MrSandman The lesser of two evils...Is still evil."
4) "FeebMaster None of the above."
5) "jhfenton  None of the above"
6) "lcordero I figure that I'm going to either vote Green or Libertarian"

[Columbia]

59. Gee, you left me out MrB

[alwynsw]

61. Damn. I got passed over, too!

But then, I've been gone all day and missed the fun.

Fuck it. I'm gonna dig up Pat Paulsen and vote for his moldy ass.

[slackmaster]

70. Like your "fact" that the NRA is trying to eliminate background checks?

For which the "proof" you provided lends no support whatsoever?

[demsrule4life]

72. Next to go is freedom of opinion?

Or does that fall under thought control? And as I go I said I wasn't going to vote for anybody. That covers the entire spectrum of political parties.

[MrBenchley]

73. Gee, dems....nobody's stopping you from expressing your "opinion"

[MrSandman]

76. You are free to any opinion...

That has the approval of, well, I guess the executive in charge of the Patriot Act provisions.

[MrBenchley]

77. That would be pro-gun John AshKKKroft

A typical gun nut politician...racist and corrupt.

[MrSandman]

78. Not after 1/2005...

I hate Patriot as much as AWB.

[MrSandman]

79. I checked...

The lesser of two evils is still evil is correct. If it transpires that the rwo parties offer two evils, at least the Repubs will, I may have to decide to do as last election and vote for my party. Don't remember saying I would vote for any "R" I can't vote for anyone in the primary, I am not registered in one of the two major parties. Sorry to disappoint.

[jimsteuben]

60. about Trent Lott....

Now that we know that Strom Thurmond was actually practicing integration in hsi private life, does that mean that Trent can get his old job back?


:P

[-..__...]

32. Kennedys amendment failed miserably.

A number of Democrats voted against it. As soon as Thomas has the vote tally posted, you can see for yourself.

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=108&session=2&vote=00028

Edited to add: the final vote tally is now up.

34 Yea
63 Nay
3 No Vote

12 Dems in the Nay... including Daschle

[demsrule4life]

71. People don't have the right to have an opinion?