Unexpected EMT Visit Prompts Elderly Wilkinsburg Man To Fire Gun

[RamboLiberal]

PITTSBURGH -- Authorities say an elderly man pointed a gun at an ambulance crew then fired a shot into the ceiling after the medics entered the wrong apartment while responding to a call in Wilkinsburg.

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"There were two big, husky men. I no sooner got down the hall and they were standing in my living room," said Charles Honesty.

The EMS supervisor said a manager led the crew to a door in the Wilkinsburg apartment building and the medics forced their way in after repeatedly knocking on the door and getting no response.

The 85-year-old resident grabbed a handgun and fired one shot into the ceiling, prompting one medic to flee and call police.

"That was my warning shot. The next one was going into him," Honesty said.

http://www.wpxi.com/news/28036415/detail.html

Hope there wasn't an apartment above him. BTW, this area is somewhat high crime area.

[ZombieHorde]

1. I am glad no one was hurt. nt

[TheCowsCameHome]

2. The EMT's were fortunate they weren't on the ceiling.

Someone could've been hurt.

[Drale]

3. The man is lucky, no one up stairs was hurt.

He could very easily be facing murder charges right now.

[pneutin]

15. Manslaughter, not murder charges

[Tesha]

4. The spreading of the "Castle Doctrine" will lead to more and more incidents like this.

'Shame there's nothing we could do about it, right?

Tesha

[eqfan592]

5. No, it won't.

What you fail to realize is that people willing to defend their house with force will do so with or without the castle doctrine. It's just that with the castle doctrine, those that can demonstrate probable cause are less likely to be prosecuted.

[Tesha]

6. No, of course not. Until it does. And then it'll be "Who could have foreseen THAT?". (NT)

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PavePusher]

8. Can you tell me where you got your crystal ball?

Mine's never worked right, and neither have any of the Anti's....

:shrug:

[lawodevolution]

9. OMG tesha the bloods flowing in the streets!

[Tesha]

10. What's a few more deaths, oops, "isolated incidents", ehh? (NT)

[eqfan592]

12. Ummm, yeah, not at all actually.

Be careful, your ignorance is showing....

[Tesha]

22. Do you always immediately go to ad hominem attacks? (NT)

[eqfan592]

33. Self Delete

You're just not worth the trouble.

[lawodevolution]

13. Death by murder is down over 7% in texas from 2009-2010. Show me how castle doctrine has resulted

in a few extra deaths. "justified" deaths are counted in the murder statistic also.

[Tesha]

23. The overall murder statistics are a bit too broad a statistic...

...to have any value in determining whether the
spread of the Castle Doctrine is leading to more
deaths when a Good Guy comes up against a
Gun Guy.

And it's still early days; my speculation is towards
the future, not an analysis of the past.

Based simply on the way folks talk in this forum,
it's clear that there will be more of these encounters
in the future. And when it's Gun Guy against the
cops, I doubt the Gun Guy will walk away from it
on his own two feet. It may work out differently
when it's the Gun Guy against the Gas Company
Guy or the EMT, of course.

Tesha

[one-eyed fat man]

28. How many times you think police raid the wrong house?

How many times do the cops kill an innocent person?

Man Dies in Police Raid on Wrong House

Menlo Park police raid wrong home, residents say

Police raid wrong house, hold circuit court judge at gunpoint

Pearl Family Suing After Police Raid Wrong Home

Police raid wrong house, gun pulled on 13-year-old child

D.C. Police Raid Wrong Home, City Refuses to Pay for Damage

*About 1,320,000 results (0.07 seconds)

"...And when it's Gun Guy against the cops, I doubt the Gun Guy will walk away from it on his own two feet."

As one quick example to the contrary, police serving a search warrant raided the house of 58 year old Charles Degustine in Florida in the middle of the night. (It turned out they simply raided the wrong address)

They threw in a flashbang grenade to disorient the occupants first, then charged in. DeGustine grabbed his handgun and fired at the officers, killing one. He was charged with murder of a police officer, and acquitted on the grounds of self defense.

In another midnight raid, Steven Shively of Topeka awoke to find armed men prying down his door. He called 911 and reported the attack in progress. As they tried to get the door open, he grabbed his gun and fired a single shot through the gap they had opened, killing an officer. He too was acquitted of murder charges on the grounds of self defense.

Note that in both these cases, the police were not even engaging in deliberate misconduct when they were killed. In one case they were simply at the wrong address, and in the other they had bad information from an informant. In both cases, the defense successfully argued that the defendants had no reason to expect themselves to be the target of a military style SWAT raid in the middle of the night, and were therefore justified in believing that they were the subjects of a robbery attempt, and were justified in using deadly force.

In the Shively case, the officers never identified themselves as officers before the shooting as they were trying to get the door down before waking the occupant. In Florida, they were yelling "Police" and wearing marked vests as they charged in, but testimony established that the flashbang grenade would have deafened the elderly occupant, and disoriented him to a level where he could not have been expected to read and understand vest markings in a dark room full of heavily armed shouting intruders.

...and a couple more.

Man Acquitted of Killing Officer

Quebec man acquitted in police officer slaying

[lawodevolution]

36. you mean a criminal against a good guy in which the good guy has a gun

or do you consider the good guy to be the felon or violent criminal?

[one-eyed fat man]

27. Tell you what

YOU go pick the house of a random stranger, force open a door and enter unannounced. Dollar to a donut you will have a hostile reception even if you are naked and bringing beer!

[petronius]

11. What is it about the Castle Doctrine that would make incidents like this more common?

[Tesha]

24. More people impelled to shoot first in "defense" of their Castle.

Every year, we read stories of folks shooting their
girlfriends/wives/kids/etc. when those folks were
up and about in the night but the Gun Guy didn't
realize who it was.

This will only get worse.

Tesha

[petronius]

32. Why? You keep asserting that like it's a fact, but you state no reason

'Castle doctrines' don't encourage people to shoot (and as you say, those that will do so already), they provide legal clarity after the fact to protect those who shoot when it's justified.

Do you think that if PA had such a law, the homeowner in the OP would have fired his first shot at the EMT instead of into the ceiling?

[ileus]

14. No more people suffering from dementia will lead to more incidents like this

Senile old turds don't know anything about new laws or even laws period. My father shot holes all over his home before we took his guns away....there's always someone in the closet or just outside the door. Every noise is someone trying to steal something.

[RamboLiberal]

17. This incident happened at 4am

I saw the "senile old turd" interviewed on TV. Seemed that he had all his mental faculties. The EMT's kicked down his door. He saw a big dude in his hall in the dark. The man shot the ceiling first to tell the "robbers" who broke in he had a weapon. He is a Korean War vet who said the army taught him to kill but even back then he didn't want to kill anyone & didn't want to kill anyone now.

Everyone survived except for that small hole in the ceiling.

They showed the revolver. Looked almost as old as the old guy-a 22. Great thing about revolvers - you can keep them loaded for years and they will still work.

Interview video & look at his shattered door at this link. http://www.wpxi.com/news/28036415/detail.html

[eqfan592]

20. The details make it even more clear...

..that the resident acted in a perfectly sane manner (assuming up is a safe direction for him to fire, though with a .22 out of a handgun it is unlikely over-penetration is a real concern anyway). When somebody big kicks down your door in the middle of the night I really don't imagine your first thought is "Oh gee, this is clearly some EMS guys who have lost their way!" And even still, the resident did his best to warn them off without trying to hurt anybody.

Either way, I feel bad for the guy to be honest. Being that old and going through the Korean War and who knows what else throughout his life, his heart may not have too many scares like that left in it.

[cleanhippie]

19. Care to cite any evidence to support that assertion, or is that just speculation?

[cleanhippie]

21. Do you even KNOW what Castle Doctrine is?

I'm thinking not.

[Tesha]

25. Of course I do. (NT)

[cleanhippie]

30. Then please, explain how Castle Doctrine will lead to MORE shootings?

Thats all anyone has asked of you since you posted that upthread.

[Logical]

16. I think he handled it ok. As long as he knew shooting up was safe!

[RamboLiberal]

18. I do too - this happened at 4am - they shattered the door around

the lock kicking it in. Can't blame the EMT's or the old guy. Most of us that have guns would've grabbed them in this situation - and most of us wouldn't have shot the ceiling. These EMT's were lucky.

[Tesha]

26. Careful -- you just created evidence that may be used against you in the future.

You've admitted (on a public message board where you
have no real anonymity once the law gets involved) that
you've thought this over and will act by shooting someone.

Which is what everyone here claims isn't true/won't
happen.

But now you've shown that it is true/will happen.

Tesha

[PavePusher]

29. All legitimate actions in the given circumstances.

Your efforts to twist peoples' meaning is noted for future reference.

[Tesha]

34. Legitimate? That's just your opinion.

At some point in the future, judges and juries will
decide this sort of thing, not you or I today.

Tesha

[Logical]

35. Totally valid shoot. n-t

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

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