Robber shoots, kills, unarmed, unresisting clerk.

[GreenStormCloud]

http://www.star-telegram.com/2011/06/02/3121947/robber-fatally-shoots-fort-worth.html

Robber fatally shoots unarmed Fort Worth store clerk

FORT WORTH -- Police continued their search today for a robber they say fatally shot a store clerk Wednesday night despite the employee offering no resistance.

The shooting and robbery, which occurred shortly before 10 p.m. at Smokey's Paradise convenience store at 5310 E. Rosedale St., was caught on video, according to Sgt. Pedro Criado, a police spokesman.

The slain clerk has been identified as Azmi Elqutob, 66, of Arlington.

Criado said the video shows a black or Hispanic man, wearing a bandana around his face, enter the store and quickly shoot the clerk multiple times.

MORE AT LINK

How often do the antis tell us that all the robber wants is the money?

[Kolesar]

1. Ya set up a strawman, then you knock it down...

One whole sentence in your commentary and it blows.

[eqfan592]

4. Nothing straw man about it.

There were people on this vary forum recently that stated very clearly that they thought the best thing to be done in a situation that the clerk here found himself in is to not resist in any way. As you can see, that doesn't work out too well in many circumstances.

[Kolesar]

6. Sorry, I am not so fascinated by the DU gun lobby that I read every post in it

Greenstormcloud set up a strawman to knock it down

[eqfan592]

7. Ok, let us take a look at this here....

....first you say that you don't bother to read the posts here enough to know what is being said one way or another, then in the SAME POST you reiterate that it was a straw man. You admit you can't support your statement, then REMAKE the statement as factual IN THE SAME DAMN POST. WOW, that is just amazing!!

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Union Scribe]

11. You were just demolished.

So much so I expect threads in the 9/11 forum talking about whether Bushco did it. My advice: admit you misspoke and quit digging.

[RaleighNCDUer]

22. I think somebody needs to explain, in simple words, what a strawman is. nnt

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

34. Good point, attacking a strawman:

To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting it with a superficially similar yet nonequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.

[lawodevolution]

41. obviously the best thing to do in a robbery is not just sit there and let yourself be a victim.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

46. let yourself be a victim...NOT

Excerpted from Rutgers Law Review (1995) LIBERALIZING THE CONCEALED CARRY OF HANDGUNS BY QUALIFIED CIVILIANS: THE CASE FOR "CARRY REFORM" by John C. Lenzen

Other data indicate that more prevalent concealed carry may be a powerful weapon in the fight against violent crime in two ways: (1) empowering individuals to defend against violent crime; and (2) deterring the commission of violent crimes in general.

• First, the carrying of firearms by qualified civilians enables individuals to stop some crimes from being committed.
  
• Certainly there are instances in which it does not matter whether one is armed, for example, when a victim cannot draw his or her handgun safely. In these cases, the mere possession of a handgun does not force the victim to do anything unwise or unsafe. An armed victim is as free as an unarmed victim to succumb to the perpetrator. There are times, however, when victims may resist safely. Concealed carry reform empowers people to decide, rationally, when and where to resist.

Consequently, opponents to carry reform advance a number of arguments: that everyone will be armed and we will be surrounded by people "packing heat" (generally accompanied by a disparaging remark about the "wild west"); that ordinary arguments will escalate into shootouts, that those who are armed will "look for trouble" or be more aggressive than usual; that innocent bystanders will be shot by irresponsible armed civilians; and that it is statistically safer not to resist crimes than to do so with a handgun. Not one of these claims is empirically sound in light of recent statistical evidence and the experiences of the carry reform states.(emphasis added)

The empirical evidence from those states with liberal concealed carry laws strongly suggests that carry reform in New Jersey would not threaten public safety. Other data indicate that more prevalent concealed carry may be a powerful weapon in the fight against violent crime in two ways:

1. empowering individuals to defend against violent crime; and
   
2. deterring the commission of violent crimes in general.

First, the carrying of firearms by qualified civilians enables individuals to stop some crimes from being committed. Certainly there are instances in which it does not matter whether one is armed, for example, when a victim cannot draw his or her handgun safely. In these cases, the mere possession of a handgun does not force the victim to do anything unwise or unsafe. An armed victim is as free as an unarmed victim to succumb to the perpetrator. There are times, however, when victims may resist safely. Concealed carry reform empowers people to decide, rationally, when and where to resist.

Second, there is a sizable body of empirical evidence indicating that widespread concealed carry may have a deterrent effect on violent crime by causing criminals to fear that their intended victims might resist with swift and deadly force. (emphasis added) Statistical data indicate that private citizens already use firearms to justifiably kill significant numbers of felons. Quasi-experimental evidence illustrates that well publicized campaigns to increase the perception that the general population is armed correlate strongly with reductions in certain violent crimes. Finally, survey data gathered from incarcerated felons show that criminals are well aware of the danger posed by armed victims and adjust their behavior accordingly.

Taken as a whole, this evidence suggests that more widespread and well-publicized concealed carry may reduce the rates of violent crime by deterring criminal behavior. (emphasis added)

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

36. See post #28 for one. n/t

[wysimdnwyg]

17. one = many?

Hyperbole much?

[eqfan592]

19. Do we really need to dig up the links again..?

....I mean seriously? They haven't been posted on this forum a billion times already? Links to stories underscoring how non-resistance often times still results in the person being hurt or killed? You don't have google to look for yourself and see this? Is it just easier for you to accuse me of hyperbole than take that basic step before doing so?

[Deep13]

2. This could be supporting evidence for either arming the clerk or disarming the robber.

You could just as easily say that if guns were not available, the robber would have no way to hold up the store.

Yeah, yeah, they can always get guns, blah blah. But that's only if they are available.

[eqfan592]

3. Wrong.

http://severnapark.patch.com/articles/severna-park-convenience-store-robbed-at-knife-point

People can and do rob stores without firearms.

[Deep13]

29. You don't have to tell be that.

I was held up at steak-knife-point while running a convenience store once. I just think it takes a lot more guts to walk into a store with a steak knife than it does with the added power of a firearm.

Are you aware of any examples of gratuitous, fatal stabbings similar to the gunshot victim in the OP?

[eqfan592]

49. Here's some I could find..

...doing a quick Google search. They are not identical situations, but share similarities.

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/local&id=7738027

http://articles.philly.com/1993-09-29/news/25987052_1_robbery-victim-knife-fisher

http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/3-Charged-in-Hanover-Park-Fatal-Stabbing.html?corder=reverse

[Union Scribe]

12. I'd love to disarm robbers.

How do we do go about that?

[Deep13]

30. Not replace ones that wear out, break or are captured by police.

They're just machines. They don't endure forever. Where are all the Colt and Schofield revolvers of the 19th century?

[rl6214]

33. So you are going to shut down the gun industry?

Good luck with that.

[Union Scribe]

39. Oh, good, so in just a short hundred years or so we'll be safe.

Listen, I'm used to long police response times around here, but that's a bit long to wait for salvation from armed criminals. Oh, and lots of those revolvers are still out there. It's the ammunition and technology, not the "machine" which didn't stand the test of time.

[slackmaster]

32. Arm the clerk if he really wants to be armed, put the robber in jail where he can't get a gun.

Problem solved.

[Euromutt]

44. How do you make firearms not be available to the criminal element?

There isn't a country in the world that's managed that. It's practically impossible to straw purchase a firearm in western Europe, but the guns are smuggled in from elsewhere, mostly south-eastern Europe, instead. In China, it's illegal for a private citizen to possess anything more lethal than a .177-cal air rifle (and even that requires a permit), but because there's a firearm manufacturing industry that has shoddy inventory control and corruptible employees, criminal organizations can acquire guns almost literally from the back door of the factory. Even North Korea isn't really an example, because for all practical purposes, the North Korean government is a criminal syndicate with a revenue from criminal enterprises (such as counterfeiting foreign currency, drug trafficking and gunrunning) estimated ten years ago at at least $1 bn a year.

As long as firearms are manufactured anywhere on the planet--and a crude sub-machine gun like the Sten can be produced in a 1940s-era bicycle repair shop, as the Danish and Polish resistance demonstrated under Nazi occupation--they will remain available to the criminal element. And as long as the criminal element produces a demand for guns, somebody's going to supply that demand, if they have to make the guns themselves.

[safeinOhio]

5. Shot him, rifled the cash register,

all in 30 seconds. I doubt if the clerk would have had time to draw a weapon before he got shot.

I have a part time job as a clerk in a convenience store from 10pm until 6am. There all alone all night. No big deal to me, I refuse to live a life of fear.

[eqfan592]

8. Some chance is better than none.

And where does a "life of fear" come into play?

[safeinOhio]

15. Seems to be some people that

wouldn't even go into a starbucks if not armed, let alone work at a store that prohibits employes to be armed.

[eqfan592]

16. Ok....

...but again I ask how does that equate to somebody being in fear? I keep a shot gun in my bedroom and my wife keeps a handgun in her night stand, just in case, but neither of us lose any sleep over fear of somebody breaking into the house....

[friendly_iconoclast]

14. I fully support your right to make that decision for yourself.

I do not, however, support any attempt to limit others' ability to make their own decisions on the subject.


I know from personal experience working the night shift that an AR-15 is an excellent bad-guy repellant...

[RaleighNCDUer]

23. Exactly. That robber went in with the intent of shooting first.

Probably because he was worried that the clerk might pull a gun on him.

I had the same job some 20 years ago. Same thing - no big deal. Sure, someone might have robbed and shot me. I might have (and more than one nearly was) been squashed by a drunk driver as I rode by bike home in the morning.

You deal with what you are presented with. Without fear.

[safeinOhio]

10. "Daddy, did you get that bad man?"

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43249972/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/?GT1=43001

Here is a man with no fear and no gun.

[eqfan592]

13. That's a great story...

...but doesn't really answer my question.

[Katya Mullethov]

26. He was quite lucky

They didn't make a canoe out of his head .

[ileus]

18. Let me try....He only shot the clerk because it was possible he had a gun.

[friendly_iconoclast]

25. And sure enough, they're already peddling that line. See post #23

One supposes that the old meme "they only want the money" is now (as Richard Nixon's press secrectary Ron Ziegler put

it) 'inoperative'....

[ileus]

27. crap and here I was trying to be original....

[Ready4Change]

50. and/or the clerk could ID him to the police.

Leave no witnesses procedure.

[Baby Bear]

20. You have to look at the big picture

In some cases, it is better to have a gun, but the possession of a weapon brings risks of its own.

Restrictions on gun ownership should be designed to minimize the number of deaths by firearms in the country. If arming convenience store clerks can contribute to that goal, I am all for it.

Universal gun ownership is one of the features of a failed state. If we come to the point where we do not dare go about unarmed, we will be a failed state.

[eqfan592]

21. "Universal gun ownership is one of the features of a failed state."

Explain please.

[RaleighNCDUer]

24. Do you recognise the difference between

"anybody can have a gun"

and

"everybody has to have a gun"?

[eqfan592]

40. Yes

And I think I might begin to see the point. Thanks.

[Euromutt]

31. Be careful not to confuse the symptom with the cause

Universal gun ownership is one of the features of a failed state. If we come to the point where we do not dare go about unarmed, we will be a failed state.

While I don't disagree with that assessment, particularly the latter sentence, I would point out that, in such a situation, you're not going to pull the state back from failure by the expedient of prohibiting the general citizenry from possessing the means of self-defense. In fact, that would be cargo cult reasoning, attempting "to recreate successful outcomes by replicating conditions associated with those outcomes, even though those conditions are either effects and not causes of those outcomes."

[rl6214]

35. I think you've got that wrong

"Universal gun ownership is one of the features of a failed state."

You look at most failed states and they all had gun bans.

[hack89]

47. Universal gun control is a feature of every fascist state too. nt

[Glassunion]

28. On a personal level

This hit kind of close to home.

A few years ago two of our employees were closing up shop for the evening. The two criminals timing was impeccable. The employees were following procedure when closing and had locked the front doors and were in the process of changing the security tapes at the end of their shift.

At that moment there were two gunshots through the one of the glass front doors and two men then entered through the now broken door. One of the employees tried to run out the back, however was chased down and herded back inside. The other employee had no opportunity to attempt an escape as he was cut off by the intruders when they entered.

At gunpoint the 2nd employee(who was in charge) was ordered to hand over all of the cash and to empty the safe. With the time delay on the safe the entire event lasted 6 minutes. They complied to every demand these fuckheads gave. Once the fucking scumbags had their money, they began to leave ordering the two to keep their hands in the air(which they did). On their way out just before exiting one of the scumbags turned and without warning fired two rounds at our employees.

One of those rounds hit one of the employees. He spent the next 4 minutes laying on the floor bleeding to death.

This is the only employee we have ever lost. Hopefully it is the last. He was only an acquaintance, as I had the pleasure of coaching him during one of our company events. A picture of us together at that event sits in my desk drawer. His only flaw was that he did everything these fuckbags told him to do. He complied.

[RaleighNCDUer]

37. And how would it have been different had he not complied

with the thieves who came in with drawn guns and had them covered from the first moment?

Nobody is stupid enough to claim that compliance WILL save your life. Only that it MIGHT.

By the same token, pulling a gun on them MIGHT stop them, or it MIGHT get you killed.

It is a sad, but irrelevant, story.

[eqfan592]

38. Actually...

...statistically speaking people who resist an attacker with a firearm are less likely to be injured than those who don't and simply comply. If I recall it was around 30% to 12%. I'm not at home and don't have the link but I will post it when I can. It isn't what I would call conclusive evidence by itself, but still it shows there is evidence contrary to the idea that the best thing to do in an attack is be compliant.

[eqfan592]

48. Here it is.

http://www.ncjrs.gov/txtfiles/fireviol.txt

It's about half way down. If you search for "12 percent" you should jump right to the portion in question, but the entire thing is an interesting read, if lengthy and in a crappy format.

Like I said, the evidence is not conclusive and the paper points this out and calls for more research to be done to explain exactly why the percentages work out this way, but nevertheless it points to a possibility that armed resistance may in fact be a better option than total compliance.

[Glassunion]

42. Anecdotal, yes... Irrelevant, no.

The story I shared is quite relevant to the op.

[Tejas]

43. So, points or no points?

Because the clerk did not introduce a firearm into the equation in an attempt to save his life, does this incident garner SU points, or no?

[ileus]

45. he died a good moral death, he knew guns turn you into a killer...