Concealed Carry is all about the gun industry opening up new markets for themselves. This is what

[applegrove]

passes for 'innovation' in the gun industry. If your neighbour has a gun, all the criminals have guns (because stolen guns will be a dime a dozen and more criminals will have them... an arms race between citizens and criminals), you'll have to have a gun too. Plus they promote the fantasy that any crime that takes place could be stopped by some CC person who happens upon a crime scene. All in order to create space in people's minds for a new market.

[Cronus Protagonist]

1. And every time there's opposition, sales jump by existing owners

It's a win-win for them.

[lawodevolution]

12. And sales jump for new gun owners

[digonswine]

2. Is there a sane place to talk about guns?

I mean, really--w/o those being "for" guns arguing their B.S. and those against doing the same? I can't find untainted real data about gun ownership. Everyone has an agenda. This is one issue where the waters are truly muddied. The pro-gunners brag on stories purported to show the empowerment of having them--those against point to how unsafe guns are to have around the home-especially by fuckwits who don't know how to handle them. There is the "it's too late to regulate" crowd, and there are those who want to mitigate. I, personally, do not trust people-- I can handle people, generally-but, put a gun in hand-who knows? I don't want every dim bulb to packing.

[The Magistrate]

4. Short Answer, Sir, No

Very few of those who want to 'talk' about it meet the necessary criteria for sane discussion....

[gejohnston]

7. For me it's easy

How many logical fallacies and demonstrable false information does each side give out?

[lawodevolution]

13. Yes, everyone else bad. You good.

[rrneck]

28. So do you plan to actially bring something to the discussion

or just kvetch about It?

[digonswine]

38. What am I to bring? I am not a repository for all things gun.

Where I live-we all have guns. We use them. Hyperbole abounds on this issue. There is so much said on this topic that it is hard to see reality. Everything seems spun in one way or another. This is one of those issues where I find it hard-really-to come to any real viewpoint. So, I guess, NO, I have nothing to bring, but I would like-LIKE some real information.

[rrneck]

40. You just brought more than most.

I think we frequently confuse ideology with information and data with truth.

[Abq_Sarah]

46. I don't want most jackasses behind the wheel of cars

To be able to drive either and hey, that's not even a constitutionally protected right. ;)

Guess we're both shit out of luck.

[gejohnston]

3. and you base this on..?

what? How much are you basing on speculation?

[sfwriter]

5. DING DING DING...

If there wasn't an anti gun movement, they would need to invent one.

[rrneck]

6. Actually,

handguns are a pain to carry. Only people who really need them or really like them carry them. Barring a serious cultural change, the number of people who carry a gun will always be pretty small.

The only, and best, way to reduce public carry is to improve our society so people don't have to be concerned about being robbed or assaulted. The United States is a pretty safe place to live generally. That's why only a small percentage of the population carries a gun.

[geckosfeet]

8. Next level of escalation will be personal body armor. You know - something

light, stylish and concealable under your normal daily clothing.

Don't be a victim. :sarcasm:

But I agree. Everyone and their brother is designing concealable compact and subcompact personal defense and 'back-up' firearms in larger calibers.

Of course, .40 and .45 caliber ammunition costs twice as much as .38 and 9mm. Not sure why. It's not twice the materials and labor.

[gejohnston]

9. around here

.380 is over priced too and it takes less.

[lawodevolution]

14. I can make 380 for 9 cents each but the cheapest I can buy 380 is 32 cents per round

But I use lead cast bullets

[MyrnaLoy]

15. those critical defense .380

bullets are expensive! I forget who makes them.

[krispos42]

16. Hornady, I think n/t

[MyrnaLoy]

17. they have the

little red plug thing in the bullet

[krispos42]

19. Yeah, so the hollow point doesn't get filled with clothing or whatever...

...and fail to expand. After all, you pay all this fancy money for expanding bullets, right? :-)

[MyrnaLoy]

20. I have them in my Bersa

but I've never fired it.

[krispos42]

27. Ooooo, that's not good.

How do you know they'll work with your Bersa? In other words, how do you know that, in a crisis, your gun will be a functioning tool, able to help protect your life and your loved ones?

Go to the range and find out. You also don't know where the bullets will hit relative to the point of aim, either!

[MyrnaLoy]

32. I've been meaning to go out

in the back country and shoot it but I've been so busy. Even though I haven't shot this gun I've shot a lot of others. I shot competivly for a number of years and got proficient, even winning a few times. Now I just plink.

[RSillsbee]

36. Of course you do NT

[PavePusher]

29. Proof, from your own hand, that you are one of the gun owners you complain about.

Hypocrisy, thy name be MyrnaLoy.

:shrug: :rofl:

[MyrnaLoy]

34. except I don't complain

about gun owners, I've said I own guns. I complain about stupidity. You should really re-read my posts cuz now you look just as silly as your laughing smilee

[spin]

31. If you plan to use your Bersa for self defense it is very important that you test it ...

with the ammo you plan to use.

While it is rare, I have seen brand new weapons malfunction on the range. Often the magazine causes the problem.

I also have been on the range test firing ammo which I planned to carry in the firearm and found that the ammo and the firearm were incapable.

For example I decided to try some hot 9mm rounds in a S&W Model 940 9mm revolver. I fired a cylinder full without problem until I tried to remove the fired brass from the cylinder. The cases had expanded and because all five rounds held together were in a clip, they had to be tapped out with a brass rod. Other brands of ammo never caused this problem.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/__KONc6M3jls/SkrerzD0I7I/AAAAAAAAAqQ/iJA4Hqranj0/s640/sw940+008.JPG
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/__KONc6M3jls/SkredVoY3pI/AAAAAAAAAqA/Dmv2OeXp6TA/s640/sw940+005.JPG

I also was testing out some 40 caliber ammo in a 40 caliber Beretta Centurion 96D. I fired about 15 rounds when the gun jammed. Nothing appeared to be wrong with the firearm and I was at a loss when a fellow shooter walked up and handed me the base of a 40 caliber case. The case had separated leaving the sidewall of the case in the barrel which prevented the next round from loading. It had to tap the remainder of the case out of the chamber with a rod.

I talked the problem over with the range master and we decided this was a rare fluke occurrence. I returned to the firing line and ten shots later, the same thing happened.

I never used that ammo again and using different brands of ammo was able to fire somewhere around 10,000 rounds through the weapon without another failure.

[MyrnaLoy]

33. I agree 100%

I'm keeping it unloaded until I can fire it. I had a number of autos before but never a Bersa. Hopefully I will get to shoot it next week.

[benEzra]

43. My first CCW was a Bersa .380 (model 383, DA/SA). I liked it. They are very good pistols.

It was absolutely reliable with Federal JHP (actually, any JHP I tried) and most FMJ. The only thing it ever jammed with was cheap Sellier and Bellot FMJ target ammo, which had a very round profile that tended to get hung up on the edge of the chamber. It was also remarkably accurate.

The one thing about the Bersa .380's to keep in mind is that they are designed to be carried exclusively with the safety on (like the Walther PPK they are patterned after), unless they have changed the design to add a passive firing pin block. PPK style guns are not fully drop-safe unless the safety is engaged, unlike most newer designs.

I eventually replaced mine with a S&W Lady Smith 9mm (3913LS, also DA/SA) which is a very similar gun in terms of size, weight, and operation.

[Straw Man]

44. Bersa passive firing pin safety

The one thing about the Bersa .380's to keep in mind is that they are designed to be carried exclusively with the safety on (like the Walther PPK they are patterned after), unless they have changed the design to add a passive firing pin block. PPK style guns are not fully drop-safe unless the safety is engaged, unlike most newer designs.

The newer Bersa .380's have a passive firing pin block. I'm not sure when they started, but here's how to tell if yours has it:

Bersa .380 firing pin block

Do you think Walther has followed suit by now with the PPK? It's a shame when the clone's technology surpasses that of the parent.

[benEzra]

45. That's good to know.

Mine (Model 383) dated well before that change, circa 1989-1990. Basically the same as the later single-stack Thunder .380, as I recall.

I have not examined a Walther firsthand in years, but according to this link current PPK's have a hammer block but not a passive firing pin safety; the pin is only locked when the safety is on. It can be argued that the risk of ignition from a drop is exceedingly remote, and the risk of injury more so, but it's a feature I personally like (I only carried my Bersa PPK clone with the safety on).

[gejohnston]

37. do you ever have feeding problems with

the cast lead? I had a Mauser Hsc that had to have jacketed rounds.

[lawodevolution]

41. I have had feed problems but you can almost always fix it by experimenting with how deep you seat

the bullet and sometimes feed problems are caused by improper powder loads.

[rrneck]

10. It's my fault.

If I had a 9mm then 45's would be cheap.

[ileus]

25. US plam makes a nice little level III vest for 299.

[lawodevolution]

11. Unrec, depleting the gun supply for law abiding citizens in Mexico doesn't seem to help

But has made things worse now.

[applegrove]

18. Mexico is 1/3 rich and 2/3 poor. There is no upward mobility there. If you want to have a middle

class lifestyle there you have to join a gang. That is why there is so much crime there. If you want to aford a few beers a night, like Americans can afford, you have to sign up for crime. America will soon be like that if people keep voting for their guns and not their economic self interest.

[beevul]

26. Perhaps people should stop insisting they choose between the two.

"America will soon be like that if people keep voting for their guns and not their economic self interest."

Peerhaps people should stop insisting they choose between the two...and doing everything in their power to make the choice one of X or Y instead of X AND Y.

[lawodevolution]

42. Wrong, you can make a living in Mexico and have plenty of food and beer without going into crime

Purhaps you can't have the newest computer or TV or a new BMW but a person who works a low level job in Mexico does not have to go into crime. The tough gun control laws of Mexico are a total failure. They need to start liberalizing their gun laws.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Taitertots]

21. All without causing a detectable increase in gun crime....

So why does it matter to you if there are no negative effects?

[Euromutt]

23. Another lesson from the College of It Stands to Reason

And worth every penny you paid for it.

Do you have any, you know, non-circumstantial evidence for your hypothesis? Because the trend in states becoming "shall issue" predates the current trend in concealable .380 semi-autos and .38 Spl+P revolvers by well over a decade. I mean, by 1995 a majority of states, including some fairly populous ones like Texas, Florida and Virginia, had adopted "shall issue" laws. If "shall issue" were really being driven by the firearms manufacturing industry, why weren't the manufacturers coming out then with the small, concealable guns they've only started coming out with in the past year or two? Instead, the first "pocket rocket," the Glock 26, wasn't released until the fall of 1995, following the trend rather than leading it, and its design was if anything prompted more by the introduction of the 1994 ban on magazines with a capacity over 10 rounds (causing some bright spark at Glock USA to go "well, if we're limited to 10 rounds, instead of seeing how big we can make the magazine, why don't we see how small we can make the pistol?").

[ileus]

24. Kimber, Ruger, Sig,..have all come out with new compact 9s this year.

It's truly a great time to be in the market for a nice compact pistol.

It's about time the gun makers got off their asses and started offering single stack compact pistols for the hot CC market. They were about 3 years behind the curve.

I have a M&P 9c and a LCP....I really like the look of the compact kimber even if it is a 9mm.

I'm waiting on a nice single stack 45 now (I really like the glock 36)


I'm really confused why the OP seem opposed to innovation in CC pistols. I'd like to see one ad for a CC firearm that has the owner acting as a LEO out in public. Hint...there aren't any. CC isn't for crime fighters it's for personal protection.

[MyrnaLoy]

35. so did Bersa

[slackmaster]

30. Nonsense.

N&U

:nuke:

[Tejas]

39. "Plus they promote the fantasy that any crime that"

"Plus they promote the fantasy that any crime that takes place could be stopped by some CC person"


The same could be said about people that think armed LEO's are the cure-all.