NRA advising Al Qaeda?

[kpete]

That popping sound you hear is the heads of NRA loyalists exploding from massive cognitive dissonance, all because of the release this week of a video showing a spokesman for Al Qaeda, Adam Gadahn, urging would-be jihadis to go out and stock up on as many guns as they can get their hands on -- through the gun-show loophole:

America is absolutely awash with easily obtainable firearms.

MORE plus video:
http://crooksandliars.com/david-neiwert/watch-nra-heads-explode-al-qaeda-spo

[Taitertots]

1. Are there really people so ignorant that they believe this shit?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Firearms_Act No one can ever buy fully automatic weapons through the "gun show loophole".

Why would you listen to reporters who are intentionally misleading you?

[Fla_Democrat]

2. Oh, maybe a few.....

most know better, but it fits their agenda, so they don't care about facts.



:smoke:

[LAGC]

3. Bullshit propaganda.

The vast majority of sales at gun shows are done by dealers -- all papered, complete with NICS background checks. Only a very few private sellers sell used guns without background checks, just like they don't have to if they list a gun in the newspaper classifieds. Why is it we never hear anti-gunners talk about that "loophole?"

I'd be more worried about all the guns crossing the border thanks to ATF "gun-walking" than the off-chance that a would-be terrorist or Mexican criminal is going to go to all the trouble of trolling gun shows trying to find a rogue seller, when they can just as easily get fully-automatic rifles on the black market.

[Remmah2]

15. "The vast majority of sales at gun shows are done by dealers"

Except for the beef jerky.

[TheCowsCameHome]

4. I thought it was corn popping

or else :popcorn: small heads.

[slackmaster]

5. Lies, lies, lies, yeah.

:nuke:

[aikoaiko]

6. And off to the guns forum.....

[PavePusher]

7. Unrec for teh stooooped. n/t

[cleanhippie]

8. Double unrec for ignorance posting.

[lawodevolution]

9. unrec for filthy lie, the Brady campaign and gun control groups are working with Al Qaeda

They are using the same talk points as the gun control groups.

[shadowrider]

10. Oh jeez..The biggest UNREC I've ever given. Do I really need to say why? n/t

[DWC]

11. Nope. My unrec is for exactly the same reason. n/t

[krispos42]

12. ACLU advising Al Qaeda?

That popping sound you hear is the heads of ACLU loyalists exploding from massive cognitive dissonance, all because of the release this week of showing a spokesman for Al Qaeda, Adam Gahahn, urging would-be jihadis to go out and study up on their Constitutional rights so they are prepared if they are arrested. Would-be jihadis are finding lawyers in anticipation of need and extensively studying the legalities, precedents, and limitations of the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 8th amendments, as well as federal and state laws and rulings on the issues.




Or not.

[Remmah2]

14. This unrec is so bad....

....it qualifies as a rectum.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

20. Hell...

... :wow: wreck 'em? Probably all most killed 'em. ;)

[krispos42]

21. Sorry, I didn't unrec it. Of course, nor did I rec it

I think very little of people that take any attempts to secure rights against arbitrary limitation or removal by the government as "aiding and abetting criminals".

I thought that this was something all good liberals and all DUers were for.

[Euromutt]

40. Sure ya did, krispos

I thought that this was something all good liberals and all DUers were for.

I'm highly incredulous that you hadn't been disabused of that notion years ago.

[krispos42]

41. Eternal fucking optimist, that's me!

That's why I have "Mr. Sunshine" tattooed on my ass. ;-)

[GreenStormCloud]

13. This is the third thread on this same topic.

No. Terrorists can not buy machine guns at gun shows, cash, no,questions asked.

And another unrec.

[jpak]

16. If AQ wants guns - lots & lots of guns and ammo, the NRA will let them have them

freedom isn't free!!!!!111

or whatever

yup

[gejohnston]

18. No it freedom is not free

One of the prices is allowing unbridled absurdity to take up space.

[rl6214]

26. If I could unrec this post for the stupidity I would

but since I can't I will just unrec the OP.

[pneutin]

17. Waiting for Youtube video of Muslim jihadist asking for full auto at a gun show n/t

[ileus]

19. so do terrorist or guns kill people?

[AtheistCrusader]

22. This guy is literally reading off gun control taking points.

It's hilarious.

I would love to see a terrorist come into one of our gun shows 'looking for the cash-only no background check fully automatic assualt rifles'.

If he asks five people for directions, at least one of them was a cop.

[DonP]

23. Why yes they are, Wayne LaPierre took over from Osama last week

Once they knew Osama was dead they had Wayne LaPierre start letting his beard grow and he flew to a remote village in Pakistan near the Afghan border Sunday evening to run day to day AQ operations.

He'll be adding wives over the next few weeks and insisting that both Pakistan and Afghanistan add a 2nd amendment to their ruling documents and the Holy Kuran immediately.

It would be impossible for these idiot writers and their avid gun control supporters to sound any dumber if they were actually trying to be funny.

[Euromutt]

24. I'm just going to post what I said in the previous thread

(The previous thread being this one.)

It's a prohibitionists' dream equivalent of the old Reese's commercial:
"You got your gun show loophole in my terror gap!"
"You got your terror gap on my gun show loophole!"
Both: "Saa-a-a-y!"
Voice over: "Two great scares that scare great together!"
The guys at the Brady Campaign must have spontaneously ejaculated when they heard of Gadahn's video.

But let's have a little reality check here.

For starters, the "terrorist watch lists" are a joke, and a particularly unfunny one at that. The lists don't contain individuals, they contain names without accompanying identifying information; names like David Nelson, John Williams, Robert Johnson, Michelle Green, John Shaw, Mohamed Ibrahim, "T. Kennedy," and thousands of others. Anyone who has the misfortune of having a name that appears on the Selectee ("watch") or No Fly List can get hassled as a result (though the DHS has at long last instituted the Traveler Redress Inquiry Program which magnanimously provides citizens with the opportunity to prove themselves innocent). When the AP reported "247 people on terror watch list buy guns in 2010", what it was actually saying was "247 people whose names are on the list, but are very probably not the specific person the agency reporting the name to the Terrorist Screening Center had in mind, bought guns."

And even if you are the specific person of that name, the fact is that people are put on the list for the shittiest of reasons. Take Daniel Brown, who was put on the list after the TSA detected gunpowder residue on his boots. Leaving aside the fact that there are plenty of legitimate ways to get gunpowder residue on one's footwear (clay pigeon shooting, for example), Brown was at the time a Marine reservist on his way to Iraq, in uniform.

Then there was the revelation in 2008 that the Maryland State Patrol submitted the names of 53 nonviolent activists to the TSC. The activists were primarily involved in protesting the death penalty and the war in Iraq. Other anti-war protestors have also found their travels hampered. Those are the "terrorists" we're talking about!

And here's the filthiest part of all about the Selectee and No Fly Lists: actual suspected terrorists aren't listed on them, because the FBI doesn't want those suspects to be able to find out from some list that's accessible to every airline check-in clerk in the country that they've been identified as such.

Then there's the so-called "gun show loophole," which stretches the term "loophole" beyond breaking point, but more importantly, as far the available evidence indicates, a negligible number of individuals who acquire firearms for nefarious purposes acquire those firearms from gun shows themselves. Dave Neiwert may claim that the "the gun-show loophole is an open invitation to criminals" but it's an invitation remarkably few have accepted. Research commissioned by the DoJ in the 1990s indicated that very few criminal "end users" acquired their guns at gun shows or flea markets. This may seem to conflict with http://www.endgunviolence.com/vertical/Sites/%7BAAEC109F-616F-49FC-8E4C-EDEA9EDD71E9%7D/uploads/%7B1EBD35CD-CF32-475A-AEB4-E6B83049F790%7D.PDF">the ATF's report "Following the Gun" (2000), which stated that ~20% of crime guns traced in investigations had been "diverted" from gun shows; however, this included traffickers who acquired guns at gun shows and then sold them on. But here's the thing: the ATF report makes no distinction between sales at gun shows by private seller, and sales at gun shows by licensed dealers (Type 01 Federal Firearms Licensees). Since the report also states that 50-75% of firearm vendors at gun shows are FFLs, and we know that FFLs generally have larger number of guns to sell than private sellers, it follows that the overwhelming majority of firearm diverted from gun shows are bought from FFLs, not from private sellers. It should also be noted that an approximately equal number of firearms were diverted by straw purchases from FFLs' regular storefronts, while the primary source of diverted guns (~32% of the total) was crooked FFLs.

[Euromutt]

25. And I will add that, if anything, it's the Brady Campaign advising al Qaeda

Because (as other posters have remarked), Gadahn's ideas about gun shows seem to come straight from some Brady Campaign "fact sheet."

[Atypical Liberal]

27. A serious reply to this - hope you read it.

The fact that this has not already been done should be a big message to us about Al Qaeda and their motives.

The fact is, nearly anyone in this country can buy firearms easily, whether they can legally own them or not. It's not a "gun show loophole", it's the fact that the federal government can't regulate private sales inside states. Consequently, nearly anyone can list their guns in the local penny saver and then meet up with someone in the WalMart parking lot and sell a firearm for cash on the barrel, no questions asked, and no paperwork.

It would be trivial for Al Qaeda to do another "DC Sniper" bit, only using 20 shooters instead of 2. They could have done this for years. For less than $10,000, they could have shut down American commerce in wide swaths of the country, just as the DC snipers did.

But they did not.

Why not?

I suspect it is because Al Qaeda is not the bogey man that our administration has painted them out to be. I believe they are attacking the financial interests of the wealthy elite, and not your average American. They know that your average American is not the one behind the American imperialistic meddling in Middle Eastern affairs. They are simply sheep. The people pulling the strings are the rich elite who are buying American policy to protect their financial interests. This is why 9-11 was an attack on a major financial and military center, not on average Americans.

There are huge, huge opportunities for wide-scale, low-cost general-public terror attacks. Buying a bunch of guns on the open market and shooting up places is just one of them.

But we haven't seen that. I think that is very, very telling.

[PavePusher]

28. *cough* "Mumbai" *cough* n/t

[Atypical Liberal]

31. What were the targets in Mumbai?

Some rather high-end hotels, as I recall.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Mumbai_attacks

"A number of those killed were notable figures in business, media, and security services."

Not average Indians.

[Euromutt]

34. Who works in high-end hotels?

Twenty-two of those murdered were employees of the hotels; 12 at the Taj Mahal Palace & Tower Hotel, and another 10 at the Oberoi-Trident. Another 58 people were killed at the Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus railroad station, and believe me, average Indians do take the train.

Overall, average Indians formed the bulk of the attacks' victims. Unless you think trainee chefs and railroad employees aren't "average Indians."

[PavePusher]

35. I'm sure that was a great comfort to the hotel staffs....

and the anyone non-rich who happened to be in the vicinity.

[Atypical Liberal]

37. Just like...

Just like the collateral damage that we inflict in our imperialistic wars overseas.

[Euromutt]

39. No, it's not quite the same

It's one thing to cause collateral damage because you can't tell the belligerents from the non-combatants, which tends to be a problem in counter-insurgency warfare. It's quite another to attack indiscriminately, and that's what al Qaeda does. The bulk of the casualties in the Mumbai attack (which wasn't, strictly speaking, an al Qaeda job, but still) fell in the Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus train station. You can't fire automatic weapons and throw grenades into crowds at a train station and claim you honestly weren't trying to injure non-rich people.

Similarly, we have the 2004 Madrid bombings, and the 2005 London bombings, both of which targeted commuters on the public transit system: you can't set off bombs in public transit and claim you weren't trying to kill ordinary working stiffs. The captains of industry don't travel by commuter train.

[Euromutt]

29. *cough* Underpants bomber *cough* (n/t)

[Atypical Liberal]

30. Who flies on trans-atlantic flights?

Rich people.

[Euromutt]

32. When's the last time you took a transatlantic flight? 1972?

Ever hear of Laker Airways' Skytrain service? Peoplexpress Airlines? Virgin Atlantic? The Dutch-US Open Skies agreement of 1992? The EU-US Open Skies agreement of 2007?

Transatlantic air travel has not been the exclusive province of the rich and business travelers for over three decades. I should know; I've been shuttling over to see my family in the Netherlands twice every three years or so since I moved to the U.S. in 2002.

Just to give you an idea of proportions, on a Delta A330-300, there are 264 seats in Economy class, as opposed to 34 in Business; a ratio of almost 8 to 1. Once you include the crew, if you blow up a plane like that, assuming it's full, you're going to kill 8 non-"rich" people for every "rich" person. And among those non-rich people you may easily find me, my wife and child, or some of my friends.

Even if you're right, and al Qaeda's focused on inflicting damage on American government and big business, "regular" Americans are just so much collateral damage to them. When you're willing to kill me not because you have anything against me personally but because I just happen to be present when you strike at whomever you're striking at, that's just adding insult to injury, and it sure as hell doesn't make you less of a threat to my well-being.

[Atypical Liberal]

33. About 2 years ago.

And I've flown overseas about 5 times. Most Americans cannot afford the luxury of overseas air travel.

I agree that regular Americans are just so much collateral damage to them, much as regular Iraqis, Afghans, and Pakistanis are just so much collateral damage to us. But it seems clear to me that this "They hate us for our freedoms" crap is just that - a bunch of crap. If they really wanted to inflict widespread terror on the general US population it would be trivial to do so, as the OP points out. But they don't seem to be doing so. I think there is a reason for that, as I said.

[Euromutt]

38. For Americans, what's lacking is vacation time

When you only get two weeks' paid vacation a year, you understandably don't want to spend 24+ hours of it in transit. Also, it's not just the expense of the flight itself, but the fact that traveling in Europe is relatively expensive because of the exchange rate of the euro to the dollar. But there's no shortage of non-rich Europeans who can swing a couple of weeks' vacation in the U.S.

I think we've had this conversation before (ah yes, last March). As I argued at the time, terrorist outfits are, by their nature, publicity seekers and they need to conduct operations that grab the attention and imagination of their home audience. Gunning down a dozen or two random people in some town nobody in the Middle East's ever heard off, pffff, we've got homegrown whackjobs who do that on a regular basis. More importantly, it's not symbolic enough. Perhaps an attack on a place like Walt Disney World might be sufficiently symbolic, but I'm not sure enough Arabs associate Mickey Mouse with evil, and there's no That's So Raven and Hannah Montana-themed rides to my knowledge.

[PavePusher]

36. And lots of non-rich people.

Seriously, are you being purposely obtuse and disingenuous, or just forgetting the sarcasm tag? I honestly can't tell, but I would think the former to be out of character for you.

[mwrguy]

42. "You can go down to a gun show... and come away with a fully automatic asault rifle"

Adam Gadahn obviously has great experience with gun shows.