Mexican Guns Tied to U.S. - American-Sourced Weapons Account for 70% of Seized Firearms in Mexico

[jpak]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304259304576375961350290734.html

The U.S. was the source of at least 70% of 29,284 firearms recovered by authorities in Mexico in 2009 and 2010, according to new U.S. government figures.

The statistics from the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives are expected to add to controversy over the U.S. role in fueling drug-cartel violence in Mexico, which has killed more than 40,000 people since 2006.

U.S. gun-rights groups long have disputed assertions by the U.S. and Mexican governments that trafficking from the U.S. is a major source of weapons in the cartel wars.

<snip>

Sen. Feinstein, chairman of the Senate Caucus on International Narcotics Control, said in a May letter to Mr. Melson that "military-style weapons are arming Mexico's brutal drug trafficking organizations at an alarming rate. Releasing data on firearms recovered in Mexico that originate in the United States will ensure that the American public and policymakers are aware of the severity of this problem."

<much more>

GOP/NRA "Big Lie" Fail

yup

[no_hypocrisy]

1. "We don't need no stinkin' Yellow Card . . . .

[Taitertots]

2. The article has nothing to do with gun sales through dealers or private sales

Why are you being intentionally misleading?

[jpak]

4. It has EVERYTHING to do with US gun dealers and gun shows - that's where they get 'em

yup!

[Taitertots]

8. Not according to your article that you just posted without reading

That makes no mention of being sold through dealers or private sales. It only sales they passed through the US. They passed through the US to the Mexican government and right to the cartels.

Automatic weapons made after 1986 are banned for civilians. Anyone who claims we are fueling Mexican violence is a liar. Those guns could only have come from non-American sources.

[flamin lib]

14. You can get 'em all at shows/stores. nt

[X_Digger]

18. Put up.. go find one. There's a show in DFW every weekend.

Dear, there's a multi-month wait for approval from the BATFE for any Class III machinegun.

The 1986 McClure-Volkmer Amendment closed the federal registry to civilian-transferrable fully automatic weapons- making the price of existing ones skyrocket.

In order to get a 'machinegun' here, you have to:
--fill out BATFE paperwork
--supply fingerprints and photographs
--wait for an exhaustive FBI background check
--pay $200 for tax stamp
--get local LEO sign-off on your purchase (or set up a trust)
--wait
--wait
--wait
--shell out $3,500-$15,000

You might want to read up on the 1934 National Firearms Act next time.

[flamin lib]

19. Just cause it looks like a full auto doesn't mean it is full auto.

Can you tell from a photo like this if what you're seeing is an M4 or a Bushmaster?

I have a firearms license (C&R) and frequent shows/estate sales etc looking for deals. I see this stuff all the time, and it's legal.

Don't be condescending, it just makes you look bad.

[X_Digger]

21. Many of those are SBR's.. also restricted (similar application process).

Pay close attention to the first row in front as well as the second row.

[flamin lib]

22. So, from this photo you can ascertain the barrel length? Really?

It's like the restricted antler law in Texas deer hunting, minimum 13" spread. Ya' gotta' make the deer look straight at you and put his ears in the alert position then make the shot. Damned hard.

On the other hand, 30% of those guns were not represented as available in the U.S.

[X_Digger]

25. Yes, I can.. as can anyone who's familiar with AR-15's.

A couple of those are 10" SBRs- a favorite of police organizations for CQB encounters.

That photo is not representative of anything related to the story, other than "here's some guns that were seized in one raid". (It helps to read the caption.)

eta: also notice the m-203 grenade launcher on the one second row, second from the right. Same restrictions apply.

[PavePusher]

45. Since the action and, generally, the stocks, of AR15's are known lengths...

they can be used as reference points to accurately guage barrel lengths, especially as those barrels also come in certain known lengths.

You are either being intentionally disingenuous, or operating from a position of ignorance. One of those can be cured... if you wish to do so.

[gejohnston]

61. SBR or SMG?

some on the front row look like they could be Colt 9mm SMGs using the same design. I have seen only one or two of them. One of them someone put a lavander finish on, an image I'll never forget.

[rl6214]

26. Because that's all he has

intentionally misleading is saying the least.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

70. intentionally misleading --

is really a nice phrase for the agenda. worse phrases leap to mind.

[tortoise1956]

3. Do you seriously believe

that the weapons in that picture are readily available in civilian gun shops? I'm no expert, but I would venture that at least half of what is pictured are fully automatic weapons that require a special license issued the federal government. In other words, they are not sold over the counter on a whim.

As to the statement that 70% of the weapons were sourced in America, I'd dearly love to see how many weapons were seized in Mexico overall. I bet it is a very small fraction, based on the link below:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30603909/

As you can see from this, out of 305,000 weapons, the Mexican government only asked for traces on 12,000 or so. What about the rest? Maybe they weren't sold by evil gun stores/...


edited to make a real hyperlink

[jpak]

5. Ever been to a gun shop or a gun show? You can get all those pictured there - including the .50 cals

yup

[tortoise1956]

7. Been to both

and most of what they show there are not available in either situation.

P.S. I wish you would stop adding "yup" - makes you sound like a redneck, which is an affront to those of us who really ARE rednecks...

[jpak]

13. nope

yup

:D

[GreenStormCloud]

15. I go to gun shows and guns shop regularly.

You can't buy full-auto at either by just plunking down a few hundred cash and walking out with a machine gun. You need some expensive federal paperwork and LOTS of money.

Do you remember Iran-Contra and the El Salvador war? We flooded Central America with M-16s. The Soviets flooded Central America with AK-47s and with M-16s that had been captured in Vietnam. Those guns didn't melt away after the Cold War. They are still there and many of them have been sold to the cartels by corrupt goverment officials.

[jpak]

20. NRA talking points fail

debunked

yup

[eqfan592]

33. Lol, only in your own fantasy land. Nt

[spin]

35. Yup. The truth fails...

Why don't you prove that the statement is false. Oh right, you can't.

[GreenStormCloud]

39. What? You deny that Iran-Contra took place?

You really believe that you can pick up machine guns at gun shows for only a few bucks?

You are too funny.

[TheMadMonk]

67. Maybe not. But in the case of some of those weapons at least...

...a full auto conversion is possible, simply by replacing or modifying one or two parts.

Parts which, according to a gun nut friend of mine, can be purchased online entirely without restriction, because only the frame of a gun is subject to any real controls. And this is in Australia where firearms and their ownership are subject to fairly stringent controls.

[oneshooter]

68. The BATFE conceder's the auto sear to be a full auto.

The purchase of one is the same as buying a complete weapon. Also any easily convertible semi-auto is considered the same as a full auto. In both cases a full and somewhat anal background check is mandatory, along with the payment of a $200 tax stamp per item. All told the delivery date is 6-8 months from time of purchase.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[GreenStormCloud]

6. This has been debunked numerous times here. N/T

[jpak]

10. This is a NEW ATF analysis to debunk GOP/NRA propaganda - and a recent article

again

GOP/NRA Mexican cartel coddler fail

yup

[tortoise1956]

12. Analysis by the same organization

who ran the "Guns to Mexican Gangs" program? Are you high, or just desperate for anything, no matter how tenuous, that you can try to fit into your anti-gun meme?

I think I'm done trying to bring sense into your life. People like you are the reason for my tagline...

[jpak]

16. Yeah - Federal Law Enforcement that is trying to stem the flow of US guns to Mexico

The same agency the GOP/NRA wants to stop from monitoring multiple gun sales in US border states.

Viva the BATFE!

Down with the GOP/NRA

yup

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ergot]

31. +many

:hi:

[shadowrider]

55. I quit arguing with jpak and others long ago

They're on the losing end of the argument but insist on pushing their line of (non)-reasoning. It ain't worth the effort.

[oneshooter]

59. Never argue with a fool, passersby can't tell who is who. n/t

[jpak]

62. 70% of the 29,000 guns recovered from Mexican crime scenes came from US gun shows/shops

Those are the COLD HARD facts

yup

[oneshooter]

64. Then lets see them. n/t

[oneshooter]

71. More jpak/Brady Bunch lies! n/t

[Glassunion]

74. The article you linked does not confirm your statement.

[rl6214]

27. And you believe the ATF?

The organization that allows guns to go across the border in Arizona?

Get your head out of the sand (or where ever it might be).

[jpak]

32. Yeah I do - and I don't truck with RW militia hatin'

yup

[eqfan592]

34. You don't truck with reality

This is the same garbage from before, with the same flaws. How are you not able to see that? Did you just not read the article?

[Euromutt]

58. In fairness to the ATF, the percentage claims weren't theirs

It was never the ATF that claimed 90% or 70% of guns recovered in Mexico were traced to U.S. sources: the ATF made it very clear that they were only talking about percentages of guns that the Mexican government had submitted to them. It was the usual suspects like Feinstein and Schumer in the Senate who put out the percentage while obfuscating the fact that this concerned only a fraction of the guns the Mexican government had recovered, which was subsequently repeated by Secretary of State Clinton and indeed the president.

[Euromutt]

56. It's the same distortion of what the ATF actually said

From the WSJ article:

Collectively, the data show that of the 29,284 firearms recovered in Mexico in 2009 and 2010 and submitted to the ATF for tracing, 20,504 or 70% passed through the U.S. at some point. The period is the most recent for which data are available.

The ATF said it traced the guns based on information provided by Mexican authorities. The Mexican government doesn't submit every firearm it recovers for tracing.

Emphases in bold mine.

It's the "90% canard" all over again: the percentage given isn't for all the guns recovered from narcotraficantes, it's for gun submitted to the ATF! And once again, those are by no means all the guns recovered.

[ergot]

9. Doing the same thing over and over, expecting different results...

:eyes:

[jpak]

11. New analysis - same result: GOP/NRA = lying sacks

yup

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[eqfan592]

36. Lol, new analysis, same flaws...

...and same fail on your part.

Yup

[oneshooter]

72. Yup More jpak/ Brady Bunch falsehoods yup

[Straw Man]

23. First it was 90%, now it's 70%...

... and the wording has changed to avoid mention of US retail gun shops. Gunwalker? What's that?

The "manufactured in the US" designation would include full-auto versions supplied to the Mexican military and sold to the cartels by corrupt elements in said military.

Whose "big lie" was that again?

[rl6214]

24. Unrec because this BS has already been proven to you to be false

yet your hatred of guns has blinded you from the truth.

[PavePusher]

29. Some important parts left out....

1. "The Mexican government doesn't submit every firearm it recovers for tracing." So, how many do they recover, and what percentage are submitted to U.S. tracing? That would provide some perspective, eh?

2. They never give a break-down of weapon types or models, just photo after photo of staged machine guns. If 70% of the guns are .22's or hunting shotguns, that would certainly make the picture of less concern, eh?

3. Who are these guns actually seized from? Are they all from Narco's, or are many from Jose and Maria Promedio, who want to have a chance at self-defense should they be accosted on the street, or have their home invaded?

Isn't it odd how they carefully leave out ANY FUCKING CONTEXT? I suspect because vagueness sells more terror than facts....

[Oneka]

30. show me the real totals.

"The ATF said it traced the guns based on information provided by Mexican authorities. The Mexican government doesn't submit every firearm it recovers for tracing."

So again, we have the same canard, as the 90% myth.

The article doesn't expound on the real number of guns the mexican authorities have seized now do they?

How many guns, did the Mexican's seize, that never made it to the BATFU's for tracing?

70% of guns handed over is not the same as 70% of guns seized.

Bullshit BATFU/ Brady Bunch talking point FAIL, yet again.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DWC]

38. Unrec. If you keep telling the same lie....

over, and over, and over, and... somebody may end up thinking it is the truth.

This has been completely debunked and you know it.

Every time you post stuff that is misleading at best or outright lies at worst, you create at least one new NRA member and move at least one sincere liberal one click further to the right.

Enough!

Semper Fi,

[jpak]

40. This is a new analysis - and it says those guns come from the US

yup

:hi:

[DWC]

41. Like I said, The same Lie over, and over, and over, and over... n/t

[jpak]

42. The truth is bitter - US gun shows and shops supply Mexican Drug Gangs

deny

deny

deny

yup

[Katya Mullethov]

43. I guess we will know soon enough

Hearings

start

Monday

morning .

[jpak]

44. Yeah the GOP/NRA morans will hold their hearings and shout NRA talking points at ATF agents

Hooray for the GOP/NRA morans!!!111

:puke:

[eqfan592]

46. They are facts...

...be they NRA talking points or not. The facts are that this analysis tells us the exact same thing as the previous study, which isn't a heck of a lot. And it certainly doesn't tell us what the title of your post implies.

You can try all you want to escape this reality, but it won't change it.

[jpak]

47. No they are not - that is why the GOP/NRA morans are having "hearings"

yup

[eqfan592]

48. lol, ok jpak.

If you say so. If you want to think the analysis says something it doesn't, that's your prerogative. Just don't expect the rest of us to follow you into fantasy land.

[jpak]

49. The hearings are for "Gun Walker" (sic) not the FACT that 70% of Mexicartel guns come from the US

yup

[eqfan592]

50. Ok, ONE MORE TIME

It is NOT a "fact" that 70% of the guns came from the us, but the CLAIM is that 70% of the guns SUBMITTED FOR TRACING came from the US. That you cannot appear to see the distinction between those two statements says a great deal about you.

[jpak]

51. We are talking about thousands and thousands of guns ya know

from US gun shows

from US gun dealers

Going to Mexico

to kill

yup

[X_Digger]

52. And 2,500 of those came from sales that the ATF encouraged

How's that sit with you?

In some of the cases, the dealers called the ATF and said, "Something's fishy here. I'm going to deny it.." and the ATF responded, "No, no, let it go through.. get their license plate for us, but let em go through.."

[eqfan592]

53. And thousands more...

...are coming from their southern border. And how many of those thousands were guns that were sold to their government by the US in an official capacity and yet found themselves in the hands of gang members? Gun shows my ass.

The problem isn't the guns but the gangs and the corruption of the Mexican government that aids them. End of story.

[rl6214]

60. Do you even know what !!!111 Means?

Moran indeed.

[jpak]

63. that is an old DU joke

well known outside of the gungeon that is

[oneshooter]

73. And the jpak/Brady Bunch morans will have the vapors, when they loose n/t

[Euromutt]

54. Funny how the self-appointed Source Approval Board isn't weighing in

I mean, if someone posted something positive about the RKBA from the WSJ, they'd be dismissing it based on the source alone and casting aspersions on the OP's bona fides. But when it's anti-RKBA stuff, the "Murdoch Journal" is just dandy, evidently.

[friendly_iconoclast]

66. Since NewsCorp is now a Prohi-approved source, they won't mind if *we* use them, no?

I certainly will, heh-heh....

[Euromutt]

57. In the article: "firearms recovered in Mexico in 2009 and 2010 AND SUBMITTED TO THE ATF for tracing"

Collectively, the data show that of the 29,284 firearms recovered in Mexico in 2009 and 2010 and submitted to the ATF for tracing, 20,504 or 70% passed through the U.S. at some point. The period is the most recent for which data are available.

The ATF said it traced the guns based on information provided by Mexican authorities. The Mexican government doesn't submit every firearm it recovers for tracing.

So it's not 70% of all guns recovered; it's 70% of guns recovered and submitted to the ATF. It's almost exactly the same story as why the 90% claims were bullshit, because that figure applied to guns that had been recovered, submitted to the ATF and which the ATF had been able to trace. The number conspicuously missing is how many guns the Mexican government recovered.

It should be noted that it's not the ATF telling the porkies here: it's Feinstein and Henigan presenting these numbers without acknowledging that there is an unknown number of recovered guns that were not submitted to the ATF. And as has been noted before on this forum, it is plausible--indeed very likely--that the Mexican government would give priority for submissions to the ATF to firearms that showed evidence of having come through the American market (e.g. markings of American manufacturers or importers).

[aikoaiko]

65. Its actually a failure of your critical thinking ability.

From the article" Of 7,971 firearms recovered in Mexico in 2010 AND traced by ATF, 4,186 were manufactured in the U.S. and 2,105 were imported into the U.S. The origin of 1,680 firearms couldn't be determine"

That AND in the first sentence is important. We don't know how many were actually recovered in Mexico in 2010. When those where taken into account in the 2009 data, those who like to exaggerate this data were embarrassed when it was revised down to 35 to 17%.

Sure some US made civilian bought weapons are finding their way to Mexico, but its not the amount you think.

[ileus]

69. It's a shame people are still buying the grabbers lies...

[Atypical Liberal]

75. Even if 100% came from America, so what?

Even if every single firearm used by a criminal in Mexico came from the United States, so what?

Why do I care what criminals in Mexico do?