Holy Koresh! MN releases their 2003 CCW report!

[Dolomite]

DARE YE EMBRACE THE HORROR?

http://www.dps.state.mn.us/bca/CJIS/Documents/CarryPermit/Permittocarry2003report.pdf

On page 10 we find:
“The number of convictions and types of crimes committed total, by individuals with permits including data as to whether a firearm lawfully carried solely by virtue of a permit was actually used in furtherance of the crime”

Crime Violation of order for protection Used Pistol? No.
Crime Reckless discharge of a firearm Used Pistol? Yes.*

Let’s see 2 pantloads (who actually shot no one) divided by 15,677 licenses issued… Hmm… that’s almost .013%. It’s blood in the streets time baby!

Don’t forget to check on page 13 to see just how much money this “unfunded mandate” is draining from the counties! (As a whole, after licensing and background check expenses, they’re half-a-million in the black). Wow – what drain on law enforcement resources this is!


*IF this refers to the much ballyhooed Petersen case – I’m calling bullshit – since the gun used could NOT be "carried solely by virtue of a permit" since it occurred on the defendant's private property. But that would bring the number of licensed CCW holders busting out a handgun while comitting a crime to zero - which would sadly send a lot of anti-gunners right into vapor lock.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Evil_Dewers]

4. I wasn't talking about your penis or you...

Except the part about not trying to sell me on CCW.

If CCW and Open Carry Weapons laws were ideal, Israel and Iraq would be the safest countries in the world.

[slackmaster]

7. Apples and oranges comparison

We're talking about what is actually happening and not happening in MINNESOTA here.

Please don't try to change the subject. Your response is illogical.

[Township75]

14. If CCW and Open Carry Weapons Laws were ideal, VT and Alaska would be...

the safest......OH SHIT!

[Dolomite]

8. Subject: Hey! I've got feelings ya know!

Sure, I'm hung like a classic Englishman, that is to say - "like that light switch on the wall" - but come now, there's no reason to bring my penis size up. Unless... unless - you're unable to embrace the truth about CCW in MN - in that case I can totally understand your (simile deleted to adhere to board code) behavior. My apologies to you if I made you feel bad.

[MrBenchley]

5. Telling, isn't it?

And remember, the laws had to be changed and the entire state endangered so that 15,000 neuroitics could tote a popgun in their pocket while they had Rambo fantasies...shows where GOP priorities lie.

[slackmaster]

9. So where are all the crimes, MrBenchley?

Why have they not materialized?

Why won't you address the issue being discussed?

[demsrule4life]

10. Pretty stupid to carry a gun in your pocket

You should always use a well made holster made specifically for the model of popgun you are carrying.

[MrBenchley]

13. Don't see much resemblinng intelligence

in the "gottagetagun gang"...after all, they think Mary Rosh is a scientist.

[slackmaster]

16. A blanket ad hominem

Nothing of substance here folks, move along.

[demsrule4life]

17. resemblinng

Nah, I wont go there.

[lymph]

19. MrBenchley,

I find your characterization of CCW holders distasteful and offensive.

[MrBenchley]

20. I feel your pain<snicker>

I find people who pretend they have to carry a popgun around all the time dangerous neurotics...or worse.

[lymph]

22. Really?

How many people do you know who carry concealed weapons? How many instances of neuroticism and/or wreckless behavior have you witnessed among them?

I'm sure there are some bad apples, but in my experience, people who like guns enough to want to carry one, and go through the legal channels to obtain a permit, are less likely to commit a gun crime, lest their carrying/ownership rights be revoked.

I witnessed some offensive generalizations, and that's what I'm pointing out.

[MrBenchley]

23. Really

[Name removed]

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[MrBenchley]

25. How tragic for you.

I suggest you get out the microscope and see how little I care what you think.

[lymph]

26. I'm curious

As a lifelong registered Democrat with a CCW, I'd like to see the evidence for your assertion that people who carry handguns are neurotic and dangerous. My personal experience is otherwise.

If you're not interested in sharing your experiences, why bother posting on a forum like this at all?

[MrBenchley]

27. Already answered...

I don't care what you want. And I'll post what I feel like where I feel like posting.

[lymph]

28. Fair enough

[slackmaster]

31. Well that's a real knee-slappin' kind of debate tactic

Kind of like a mix of Peewee Herman and my cat.

[Wcross]

Dr. Benchley?

"laws had to be changed and the entire state endangered so that 15,000 neurotics could tote a popgun in their pocket"

Care to explain your diagnosis Doctor? If you aren't qualified to diagnose mental illness you ought to refrain from doing so.

Good day sir.

(By the way doctor, there is a spell checker available, you ought to spell neurotics correctly before you diagnose them)

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Wickerman]

3. I refer you to Olmsted and Ramsey Counties in that Report

for a true accounting of the costs of permitting. Working in the County system in Minnesota and being privy to financial mechanisms of one of the two counties I can assure you that those two counties have done a more accurate accounting of the costs of issue.

On a further note - in the small town I live in our police chief was optioned to do background checks for the County. The service would be provided as a convenience for residents so they wouldn't have to travel to the County to apply. It was also framed as a revenue enhancer for local law enforcement. After evaluation he determined that he could NOT perform the background checks within the costs allowed by the state - it would cost his local budget and strain his already tight resources. He elected to send applicants to the County offices - 25 miles away.

[Dolomite]

6. That’s a good point and one that I may have admittedly overlooked.

Are you thinking what I’m thinking?

That the gun industry “got” to all 87 counties in Minnesota (except for Olmsted & Ramsey), brainwashed them with their horseshit, and forced them into lying about the cost of issuing permits?

I like the way you think ;)

(Ramsey paid $5600 to rent a copier for 6 months? Can we fairly label that county as “fiscally representative” of the rest?)

[Wickerman]

18. I won't put my tinfoil hat on that tight

I think what most counties did was to take their alloted 80$ (I think)off the top of the fees they could collect, then send on the remainder to the state. They did not factor in the cost of time and resources as effectivley as did the two coutnies I cited. There might be others that used true accounting methods, I just spotted those two.

Ramsey would not be representative of the other counties. They were in the top 5 of permits issued though, so they had exceptional volume and obviously needed copiers that could handle the volume while not displacing existing work. I'm sure they had multiple locations. I notice that Hennepin had higher volume and broke even. Olmsted, another relatively high volume site had one location only from which to issue permits.

[Stoker]

21. Well, I'm pretty convinced...

That people who apply for CCW permits are so responsible in carrying, as demonstrated by the saftey record, that really, it's a waste of time to issue CCW permits.

Regardless of whether the program is losing or gaining income, it's obvious that the kind of people who will submit to the CCW fees and procedures are not the kinds of people who go out and commit crimes with their weapons. It's the criminal element that carries concealed weapons for nafarious uses that concerns me, and making the law-abiding have to jump through hoops to carry a weapon doesn't do anything about the problem people.

You shouldn't need a permit to carry a gun. It's a hassle, an expense, and only hinders the law-abiding.

Stoker

[Wickerman]

32. Its been 8 months

I am unwilling to make any statement of success or failure based on 8 months of data. The fact that the sky hasn't fallen is neither a cause for rejoicing or panic.

[jimsteuben]

33. 38 states have concealed carry

States started passing shall-issue concealed carry laws this back in the mid-80s. With each legislative battle, we were solemnly warned that the sky would fall. We have a lot of data to work with. The sky didn't fall, the streets did not run red with blood.

An report prepared by the National Center for Policy Analysis in 2002 found that Texas' concealed carry holders are far less likely to be arrested, especially for a serious crime, than the general population. It found concealed carry licensees were 5.7 times less likely to be arrested for violent offenses and were 14 times less likely to be arrested for non-violent offenses than the general public.

Arrest data can be terribly misleading since beind arrested does not mean a final adjudication of guilt. It is instructive to examine the crime statistics kept by the Texas Department of Public Safety relating to the incidence of crime committed by concealed carry licensees. By 2001 there were 222,496 Texans with concealed carry licenses - more than 1.6% of the adult population (over age 21).

During that year there was not a single licensee convicted of rape or robbery. While Texas courts convicted 157 people of murder, only one of them was a licensee. The figures show quite clearly that Texans who possess concealed carry licenses are significantly more law-abiding than average. See http://tinyurl.com/9eao and http://tinyurl.com/2adlk.

What about concealed carry's effect on crime? In the early 1990s, Texas' serious crime rate was 38 percent above the national average. Since then serious crime in Texas has dropped 50 percent faster than for the nation as a whole. For example, during the 1990s Texas' murder rate dropped 52 percent compared to 33 percent nationally and the rape rate fell by 22 percent compared to 16 percent nationally. Correlation does not equal causation, and there are numerous variables which influence the crime rate, but I remember that when the concealed carry bill was being debated here in the 1990s, gun control advocates predicted that its passage would usher in a new era of violence. Pull up some of the columns written by Molly Ivins during that period and you will get a sense of how frightening this bill was to the victim-disarmament crowd. They claimed that gun fights would break out over parking spots, our highways would turn into Dodge City and the OK Corral, and that there would surely be blood in the streets. After nearly ten years of licensed concealed carry, the results are in. Their predictions of doom failed to come true, Houston did not become Mogadishu on the bayou, and the crime rate in fact dropped.

On 16 December 1999 John Holmes, district attorney of Harris County which includes the city of Houston, made an observation. "As you know, I was very outspoken in my opposition to the passage of the Concealed Handgun Act. I did not feel that such legislation was in the public interest and presented a clear and present danger to law abiding citizens by placing more handguns on our streets. Boy was I wrong. Our experience in Harris County, and indeed state-wide, has proven my initial fears absolutely groundless.”

His assessment was shared by Glenn White, president of the Dallas Police Association, in the Dallas Morning News in December 1997. "I lobbied against the law in 1993 and 1995 because I thought it would lead to wholesale armed conflict. That hasn't happened. All the horror stories I thought would come to pass didn't happen. No bogeyman. I think it's worked out well, and that says good things about the citizens who have permits. I'm a convert."

The law was passed and signed into law only after Texas residents approved a non-binding resolution asking the state to institute a concealed carry law. Unfortunately Governor Richards vetoed the first concealed carry bill, and so was replaced by Dubya.

I can't help but think that maybe just maybe if Gov. Richards had not vetoed the first concealed carry bill, she would have been re-elected, and Dubya would still be the owner of a baseball team.

[slackmaster]

34. Maybe Minnesotans are different

I know they're kind of weird, but I always thought they were nice people overall. Kind of like Vermonters.

[FeebMaster]

36. Like Vermonters

only more bloodthirsty, hence the impending blood in the streets.

[Wickerman]

35. I was in Texas in the period you describe

yep, the conceal carry law and her veto did do her in. What a shame.

[DonP]

39. Good heavens!!!

If Richards had not been so dead set against CCW she would have been re-elected.

GWB would never have been elected governor.

Gore would have won the election hands down running against Dennis Hastert or lord knows who.

Florida would only be a place where DisneyWorld was to all of us.
Ashcroft would be probably be an associate professor at some MO Junior College.

Rumsfeld might be a spokesperson for AARP.

Wow! Talk about "for want of a nail the shoe was lost ..." kind of thinking.

I'm getting sick to my stomach at the "what ifs" in that whole line of thinking.

But I'm going to remember all that the next time I'm told that gun rights or CCW has never had any real impact in an election.

[MrBenchley]

40. Yup, blame gun nuts for pResident Turrd...

If gun nuts didn't peddle outright lies like "more guns = less crime" we might have been spared this unelected drunk.

[DonP]

41. Don't be shy, your side should proudly take the credit for that

Somebody, my guess is an anti gun nut (or nuts), convinced Ann Richards that CCW was really an unpopular and losing proposition.

If Lunabush is right, and the CCW veto cost her the governorship, we have some fine anti folks to thank, at least in part, for Bush and his cronies.

But then again, that must be wrong, it has been pointed out to us repeatedly that RKBA issues have never cost anyone an election.

Maybe it was the corrupt gun industry that voted in Texas for CCW in that referendum.

If she would have listened to the pro RKBA side of the issue she'd probably still be Governor and Bush might be running the pitching staff for a farm team in a minor league somewhere.

Gee thanks for all the great political advice you rabid anti gun folks gave Ann on that issue. It really helped us all, and the rest of the world, so very, very much.

[MrBenchley]

42. Nope, it's the gun nuts

putting a neurotic fetish ahead of public safety, honesty or the good of the country.

Even here...it was the RKBA crowd screaming they wouldn't vote Democratic in the Super Tuesday thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=42201&mesg_id=42201

"f she would have listened to the pro RKBA side of the issue"
That would be the side that's solid horseshit from stem to stern--which explains why its scumbags like Trent Lott and Tom DeLay peddling it.

[slackmaster]

43. The Internet School of Psychiatry is my alma mater

Has anyone else here gotten a certificate in Diagnosis Via Discussion Forums from ISP?

[beevul]

11. OMG!!!

If you worked in Ramsey County, you might know my mother, she did too!!!


(ducks)

[MrBenchley]

12. Meanwhile, what a vivid picture of the sort of people

who feel they have to tote a pistol around...and bear in mind that thanks to the corrupt gun industry and the GOP, some of these charmers actually could not be prevented from getting a pistol permit.

--Has been convicted in any court of a crime punishable by imprisonment for more than one year.
--Has fled from any state to avoid prosecution for a crime or to avoid giving testimony in any criminal proceedings.
--Is an unlawful user of any controlled substance as defined in Chapter 152.
--Has been committed to a treatment facility in Minnesota or elsewhere as a "mentally ill," "mentally retarded," or "mentally ill and dangerous to the public" person as defined in Minnesota Statute § 253B.02.
--Has been convicted of a gross misdemeanor for the crime of assault motivated by bias (609.255).
--Danger to self or others.
--Marijuana conviction in Texas.
--Crim. History states "disqualified for Firearms".
--Warrant out of another state (ND).
--Applicant lied regarding current address.
--Reckless discharge of firearms.
--Several law enforcement contacts for mental health issues. Two commitments by county and one self commitment.
--Pending case involving a loaded uncased handgun in a motor vehicle. Found during a traffic stop on a driving complaint.
--Charged in WI with Carrying a ConcealedWeapon, pled to Transporting a Loaded/Uncased Firearm. Involved a traffic stop, had 2 handguns in vehicle, one loaded under the driver's seat, the other unloaded in the glove box. Subject had a large knife on self and another one
located in the driver's side door pocket.
--Continued assaultive behavior pattern with alcohol use.
--Arrested & placed in treatment.
--Arrested for 2nd degree assault, domestic assault and animal cruelty
--Interviews with people that know the applicant revealed explosive temper and brought illegal weapons to work place.
--Charged and investigated for CSC with the use of a firearm.
--Investigated and arrested for terroristic threats.
--Convicted for possession of a pistol without a permit, threatened wife and child during incident.
--Applicant divulged he had shot a person in the past.
--Convicted for multiple DWI and history of assaultive behavior.
--Threatened mother with a rifle.
--Convicted for domestic assault.
--Threatened Co-worker.
--History of suicidal thoughts and threats.
--Multiple DWI convictions and history of assaultive behavior.
--Suspected gang member, arrested and charged for firearms violations.
--GM theft conviction as armed security.
--Multiple alcohol related offenses.
--Suicide attempt, conviction for criminal damage to property and auto theft arrests.
--History of assaultive behavior, and burglary arrests and convictions.
--Conviction for GM possession of a firearm and assault.
--Arrests for firing gun in city limits, suspected gang member.
--Incidents of threatening behavior, history of alcohol abuse.
--Assault 5 conviction, felony theft arrest.
--Incident involving terroristic threats with the use of a firearm.
--Multiple DWI arrests
--Terroristic threats arrest.
--Suspected gang member, domestic assault arrest.
--Arrest for assault 1, criminal vehicular injury related DWI conviction.
--Unauthorized use of a motor vehicle conviction and arrest for robbery.
--Gross misdemeanor theft conviction and numerous pending investigations.
--Six DWI convictions.
--Disorderly conduct conviction, arrest for domestic assault.
--Conviction for reckless discharge of a firearm and threatened suicide with a firearm.
--Convicted for possession of a pistol without a permit.
--Domestic related arrest, felony burglary conviction.
--Convicted possession of a pistol without a permit, attempted burglary and assault arrest.

Yeah, these are the voters Democrats should be pandering to...NOT!

[slackmaster]

15. Who are you trying to kid?

Most of the categories you list are reasons for only denials. A very small number of people fitting into a few of them were denied initially then issued a permit on appeal.

The lengths to which the anti-gun crowd will go to distort and misquote in support of their agenda boggle the mind.

BTW - Where is the anticipated wave of crimes in Minnesota?

[MrSandman]

29. What good is a state permit when

Ownership/possesion by most would be, yes, a federal offense.

[MrSandman]

30. Isn't that close to...

the number of homicides by gun to gun owner?

11,000/80,000,000* 100=.014

or take a lower number of gun owners

11,000/60,000,000*100=.018

The number of homicides(11,000) can be found here:
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/tables/frmdth.htm

I don't even want to try to figure the % per firearm.

I am not a statistician, so if I wrongly represented the numbers, let me know. I tried it on the Windows calculator, which I hate.