Issa Refuses To Let ATF Agents Testify Against 'Toothless' Gun Laws (VIDEO)

[CreekDog]

Rep. Darrell Issa (R-CA) wouldn't let ATF agents testifying before his House Oversight Committee hearing Wednesday on the controversial Project Gunrunner say how weak U.S. gun laws were making it difficult for them to catch criminals smuggling assault weapons to Mexican drug cartels.

Rep. Carolyn Maloney (D-NY) asked one of the agents if weak gun laws made their prosecutions difficult.
"One of you in your testimonies called these laws to prosecute 'toothless.' Could explain to me -- why are existing straw purchase laws 'toothless'?" Maloney asked.

Issa butted in to say that their ATF agent's opinions on U.S. gun laws would not be "considered valid testimony."
"I want to caution the witnesses that the scope of this, your testimony here is limited, and that it's not about proposed legislation and the like and under House rules would not fall within the scope of this," Issa said. "So, anecdotally you can have opinions but ultimately it would not be considered valid testimony.

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/06/issa_refuses_to_allow_let_atf_agents_testify_against_toothless_gun_laws_video.php?ref=fpblg

[Hoopla Phil]

1. Good for Issa. He is not about to let this investigation of a serious issue

that may include violations of international law, the deaths of two US agents, and the shooting down of a helicopter, be sidetracked and turned into a political dog and pony show.

Some (on the ATF watchdog web site) have even gone so far as to suggest that the ATF WANTED for these walked guns to be found by Mexican police so as to artificially raise the number of guns traced to the U.S.

Bottom line, the ATF made FFL holders break the law and then want to give testimony on how the law is weak? Not going to happen.

[CreekDog]

.

[CreekDog]

4. you believe so strongly in the 2nd amendment that you believe we shouldn't be allowed to say things

:eyes:

[gejohnston]

6. you do, although it would be nice if you got

your understanding of the law from a knowledgeable and accurate source rather than some Al Qaida guy that thinks you can buy machine guns at Wal Mart.

He was speaking as a law enforcement officer, so no.

[CreekDog]

25. gun folks are always telling me to go get a degree in gun-ology

must be fairly time consuming.

does it leave you with any time to comment on things like single payer health care and non gun related issues?

[eqfan592]

28. Wow, did you really just do that?

Did you really just sit there and say that it's not important to be informed about an issue that you are going to form a strong opinion on? I'm truly stunned by such an attitude.

And yes, it does give me time to comment on other issues. In fact, universal health care is one of the more important issues to me, along with the environment. I don't comment on them as much on this particular forum as I find I tend to agree with most DU'ers on those issues anyway, though I do read through those forums on a fairly regular basis.

But back to your comment, you really need to evaluate your priories. How can you possibly form such strong opinions on a subject yet remain so self-admittedly ignorant of the particulars of the issue? That just baffles me.

[CreekDog]

36. wait, you think most of the discussion about health care reform is in the Health forum?

really?

[eqfan592]

38. LOL, did I say that?

I think not. But nice dodge.

[CreekDog]

47. not sure if you were a single issue person re: guns

:shrug:

[gejohnston]

51. I doubt any of us are but then

Diane Fienstien, the boogy person of RKBA supporters both left and right, finds herself challenged by the left. When she was SF mayor, her proposed handgun ban triggered a far left (White Panther Party, who were white allies to the Black Panther Party) wing group to push a recall. The LBGT community joined the White Panthers because she screwed over the gay community.

She will be primaried from the left again because of her support for the MIC (which she and her husband profit from).
I have no idea what her opposition feels about RKBA, (I doubt she would be on my side of the issue) but I would support her because supporting one issue I agree with is better than supporting none. But, I don't live in California.

[eqfan592]

52. No, I'm not.

It is the issue I happen to talk the most about on this forum for a variety of reasons, but it is far from the only issue I am concerned about. I would say my top four issues that I read up on, in no particular order, are the environment and renewable energy, health care, science and keeping religion out of the science classroom, and firearms/gun control.

[gejohnston]

41. Actually I do, but commenting where everyone agrees does nothing.

So I go to their sites to discuss national health care.

No, just call the nearest ATF office or police station and ask,"hey is it true congress repealed the National Firearms Act of 1934 and I can go buy a machine gun at Wal Mart?"

[Hoopla Phil]

11. I think I made it VERY clear. Good on Issa for not allowing this serious

investigation involving the DEATHS of U.S. agents, DEATHS of Mexican citizens, downing of a helicopter, and the possible VIOLATIONS OF INTERNATIONAL LAW by the ATF, to be diverted into a dog and pony show for political reasons.

NOWHERE did I say ANYTHING about not being able to say anything. Those wanting to speak on a different subject are welcome to - but not at the microphone of this serious investigation. Just like someone will not be able to take the microphone in this investigation to pontificate about the seriousness of jock itch. It's a matter of time and place.

[CreekDog]

16. you made it clear that you support silencing the agents

Because they are saying something about gun laws.
You also want to prevent doctors from dating out asking about guns, right?

[eqfan592]

17. Wow, just wow.

He made it clear that there is a time and place for every discussion, and to go off half cocked in another direction that could distract from this very serious investigation would be idiotic. This is about scoring cheap political points with those too blind to see how much they are being played, end of story.

[CreekDog]

21. very vigorous defense of Issa

:eyes:

[eqfan592]

22. Actually, I was talking about Hoopla...

...but that you can't get passed your own bigotry about guns and gun owners to see how important this investigation really is says a great deal about you.

[Hoopla Phil]

23. I've made it VERY clear. The fact that you refuse to see and obviously

read into it things that I DID NOT say, frankly says more about you than me.

[beevul]

26. Uh...

The stance that theres a time and a place for those comments - and in the middle of an unrelated investigation wasn't it - is "silencing"?


Wow.

I guess when the mods move something from LBN because its not LBN, they're "silencing" too, right?


Perhaps its YOU thats letting rational judgement - assuming you are capable of it - be clouded because of your own personal bias on guns.

If not, go ahead and explain how the mods are "silencing", in the example I gave.

That or perform some linguistical gymnastics in a vain effort to somehow claim my example is not a parallel.


Good luck with that.

[sharesunited]

7. Good for Issa? Why are you praising someone so uniformly regarded as being against the People?

[eqfan592]

9. When somebody...

...even a bad somebody, actually does something right, they are deserving of praise for that single action.

[sharesunited]

12. He obviously dislikes the ATF. Isn't that because he has something of a reputation

for brandishing guns and making implicit threats to shoot people?

[Hoopla Phil]

14. He obviously is very concerned about possible violations of law by the ATF

that resulted in deaths of innocent people. You don't seem to be, why is that?

[sharesunited]

18. I didn't agree with Project Gunwalker whatsoever.

The proliferation of guns is precisely the opposite of what the ATF should be doing.

But don't you think Issa is trying to defund and eliminate the ATF?

Too many so-called guns rights advocates would support that effort too, which is a scary prospect.

Bottom line: An evil dude with a presentable haircut trying to do something extremely negative for society.

[Hoopla Phil]

24. "But don't you think Issa is trying to defund and eliminate the ATF?" What???

Where did you get that from??? It has nothing to do with what I've posted. The possible CRIMINAL acts of ATF agents that resulted in innocent deaths. I fully support the investigation (as there is a multitude of evidence to support an investigation) and the prosecution of all those that violated and U.S. or International law. Do you support that? Why are you moving the goal posts beyond that?

"Bottom line: An evil dude with a presentable haircut trying to do something extremely negative for society." Are you saying that this investigation of ATF agents that resulted in innocent deaths is "extremely negative for society."? I don't see how.

[sharesunited]

42. Sure, investigate and prosecute. But I still say Issa wants to shut ATF down

and is trying to do an ACORN on them.

[gejohnston]

45. the ATF is in dire need of reform given their many internal problems n/t

[beevul]

32. Yeah, we remember your numerous and vigorous objections.

Not.

[PavePusher]

34. Huh?! Cite, please? n/t

[sharesunited]

55. Cannot cite, was purged from his Wikipedia page. Sorry and apologies to the Congressman.

:banghead:

So. I'm interviewing for heroes now. Is Darrell Issa one I should consider?

[Hoopla Phil]

13. I think I made it very clear why what Issa is doing in THIS investigation is a GOOD thing.

Please reread my first reply - it'd in there.

[sharesunited]

20. You make the ATF sound like crusaders against guns.

I only wish that were true.

My observation is that to know enough about guns to choose them as a vocational pursuit, you need to have a strong affinity for them.

This was the true mentality behind Project Gunwalker. People were secondary. Guns came first.

Once again, a case of guns clouding judgment.

[Hoopla Phil]

27. I really don't understand this post.

The ATF is accused of allowing guns to walk across the boarder, in violation of U.S. and International laws.

[Katya Mullethov]

29. They are accused in the proliferation of guns and ammo

But proliferation of guns and ammo with the idea of "ending" the proliferation of guns and ammo is cool .

[beevul]

30. Yeah really. What are a few thousand dead messicans and a few murikans...

Yeah really. What are a few thousand dead messicans and a few murikans, if it leads to tougher gun laws.

Right?


Do I really need this?

:sarcasm:

[Katya Mullethov]

31. Judging by the hue and cry of the populace at large

The 24 hour news coverage and the need to spin it all back into the Iron River program ? Absolutely nada .

Very few care , it's perfect . And I am starting to think it just might work too . We'll see .

[Katya Mullethov]

56. The proliferation of guns and ammo

Causing the proliferation of guns and ammo even amongst our masters . What a self replicating conundrum !

Any ideas as to how we can stop the corrupting and empowering influence of guns and ammo ?

[Katya Mullethov]

59. Cat gotcher tongue ?

[Hangingon]

2. It is well established that ATF saw there was law breaking.

The problem is they intentionally let the law breakers go. Irregularities were reported up the chain and leadership said no action should be taken.

[gejohnston]

3. The agent was going to use the

we violated the law because the ends justify the means. It is not the agent's place to comment on how he feels about the law. It his place to enforce the law. Liberals would not accept such nonsense from DEA, nor should they. Same applies to ATF.

[ileus]

5. toothless? exactly how would they like to add teeth?

Exactly what law would they be able to add in that would enable them to track who a buyer sold a gun to or bought a gun for illegally?

[eqfan592]

10. That's the really funny part...

...is that they in way they ARE the teeth and they specifically kept themselves from being employed properly in this instance. It's like basically asking them what laws can we pass to make sure the ATF actually does its job?

[Hoopla Phil]

15. Hell, they told FFLs to VIOLATE existing law. So what other law do we need?

How about a law making it an illegal act to order a person to violate the law. Or maybe a law making it criminal to violate a law during an investigation. Oh wait, we DO have those laws already.

[eqfan592]

8. Wow, there's nothing like...

...trying to take a very serious investigation and trying to politicize it for your own personal political needs as Rep. Maloney attempted to do here. Disgusting is the only word for it.

EDIT: What is equally disgusting is how many so-called liberals can't get passed their own bigotry when it comes to firearms and firearm owners to see WHY Rep. Maloney was actually in the wrong on this. This investigation has NOTHING to do with "toothless laws" and EVERYTHING to do with the laws teeth never being employed in the first place by higher ranking officials in the ATF.

[beevul]

19. Is that the real headline?

How can anyone call the law toothless when those charged with enforcing it deliberately...didn't?


What.A.Joke.

[HankyDubs]

33. the gungeon's whilwind affair with republicans continues!

What are you guys doing here again?

[eqfan592]

37. When you start to think..

...that the other side can never be right on any issue, you have officially become part of the problem and not the solution. That sort of myopic viewpoint is dangerous and counterproductive in the extreme.

[HankyDubs]

39. you are referring to the modern republiklan party?

What other republiklan policy positions do you agree with?

[gejohnston]

43. more accurately, they agree with us

at least for the moment. That may not be true five years from now. Kind of like how the professional left has taken a liking to Bush's bogus list over the last eight years.

[HankyDubs]

44. Oh puuuuhleeeeze

That may not be true five years from now.

Even you don't believe this ripe horseshit. Just admit it.

I'm interested in hearing about all the right wing policy positions you all support when it comes to other issues, because whatshisface was telling me that they are right so often.

[gejohnston]

46. none, and it is not right wing just because you or some talking heads

say so.

[friendly_iconoclast]

53. I'd remind you that the most prominent anti-smoking politician of the 20th Century....

...was a German fellow known for invading neighboring countries and industrializing mass murder. While not busy slaughtering

people in wholesale lots, he ordered a nationwide anti-smoking program.


The first governments to plan for dedicated, high-speed passenger rail lines were Imperial Japan and the Third Reich. The

Japanese remebered that fine idea and built the Tokaido Shinkansen twenty years after World War II.



Should we therefore feel free to light up a ciggy and abandon Acela service in the Northeast Corridor?


Issa is a tool, but in this case, he's right. The ATF has no one to blame but themselves for the mess they're in.

[gejohnston]

57. Just look how fast Rachel Maddow and Thom Hartmann fell in love with

Bush's terror watch list after nine years of pointing out that there were no indivdiuals and just a names, including Nelson Mandela and Sen Kennedy. Now, according to them, they are real terrorists and needs to be added to the NICS no buy list. This is after Republican Peter King, DINO McCarthy thought of it. This is after DINO (serving as a Dem while still a registered Republican) wanted the list of vetrans who served in Iraq and Afgahnistan to be added to the no buy list.

Now tell me who is full of horseshit.

[CreekDog]

48. what's an issue you think Democrats have it right?

:shrug:

[friendly_iconoclast]

49. I can't speak for them, but I'd say damn near everything *except* guns.

And there are some voices of sanity amongst us on the subject.

[CreekDog]

50. i'll wait for that poster to answer

but thanks! :D

[eqfan592]

54. It depends on which Democrat we are talking about.

But generally speaking, I like that they support LGBT rights, universal health care (though I don't think there is enough support for this, even in the democratic movement), campaign finance reform, addressing climate change (another issue I want to see more out of the Dems than I've seen), resisting the religious right and their attempts to turn rewrite the history of our nation, and workers rights. That's just what I could come up with off the top of my head.

In general, as I stated in a few specific instances, I don't think the Dems go far enough with many of these issues, and I think at times they are too willing to let the Republicans beat them around and set the tone for the debate. It's like the party has no spine sometimes, and it gets very frustrating.

[gejohnston]

40. Are you saying that if some Republican says

the sky is blue, we are all supposed to change our minds and say it is purple with pink polka dots?

[davepc]

35. Lets get some DEA agents up to the hill to talk about how innefective drug laws are

[Tejas]

58. There's a reason Rep. Maloney asked that question.

http://maloney.house.gov/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2312&Itemid=63

“In just the nine weeks since my friend Gabby Giffords and 19 others were shot, and six of those died, some 2000 more Americans have died from gun violence,” Maloney said. “The legislation we're announcing today is clear, simple, and focused: enable swift and effective background checks on all gun purchasers. The background check system is broken, and dangerous people keep slipping through. If this bill had been law, it’s possible—just possible—that Jared Lee Loughner would not have been able to obtain a weapon, and we could have avoided the tragic events in Tucson.

“I’m grateful that Mayor Bloomberg made the trip to Washington on behalf of the Mayors Against Illegal Guns to highlight the importance of this issue. And I’m grateful, too, for the leadership of my friends Carolyn McCarthy and Chuck Schumer on this vital topic,” Maloney added.