Two AK-47s Used to Murder Mexican Lawyer Were 'Fast and Furious' Guns From U.S., Sources Say

[beevul]

(since other posters from the anti side of the gun debate post stories from fox news and nary a peep is made when they do..."

Two AK-47s Used to Murder Mexican Lawyer Were 'Fast and Furious' Guns From U.S., Sources Say

By William La Jeunesse

Published June 17, 2011


EXCLUSIVE: Two guns sold to a Mexican cartel and used in the high-profile kidnapping and murder of a Mexican lawyer last year were purchased under the U.S. Justice Department's failed anti-gun trafficking program Operation Fast and Furious, sources tell Fox News.

U.S. law enforcement sources and officials in Washington told Fox News that two AK-47s were purchased in Arizona by a straw buyer — someone who legally buys guns, then illegal sells them to a third party – and were allowed to “walk” into Mexico. Police recovered the guns in the course of their investigation of the kidnapping of Mario Gonzalez Rodriguez.


According to Fox News sources, Mexico was not told the confiscated guns were part of the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives’ Operation Fast and Furious until the past week.

Until now, the most high-profile crime allegedly committed with these guns was the murder in December of U.S. Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry. Two guns found near his body in Mexico were traced to the ATF program, though it is unclear if they were the guns that killed Terry.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/06/17/two-ak47s-used-to-murder-mexican-lawyer-were-fast-and-furious-guns-sources-say/#ixzz1Pah0a3Bp

[sharesunited]

1. The ATF can live this down by shutting down manufacture, importation and sale of guns and ammo.

[beevul]

2. Let me get this strait...

You think the atf can live down breaking the law on their own part, and ignoring the lawbreaking theyre charged with interdicting, by breaking the law on their own part and ignoring the law theyre charged with upholding?


Thats essentially what you just said they should do, shares.

[sharesunited]

11. How would you have them redeem themselves? Oh, wait, let me guess. By going away.

[TPaine7]

12. You didn't ask me, but I would think that the proper course for a law enforcement department

would be to enforce the law while taking care to respect the Constitution. In other words, competently do what they get paid to do while avoiding violations of people's rights as spelled out in the Constitution they are sworn to uphold.

Your solution was that they defy the Constitution, violate the rights of people as spelled out there as well as in state constutitutions, and violate federal and state laws nationwide to enforce your agenda against a nation that overwhelmingly opposes it.

Like most Americans, I like my path to redemption more than yours.

[sharesunited]

14. You see how the Obama Administration is out on the edge with respect to Libya?

I would like to see the Executive go out on the edge in a crusade against guns and ammo.

Right up to the point of risking impeachment. That's how important I think this is for the future of the country.

The legislature simply cannot do it. POTUS can, with a properly configured SCOTUS.

[gejohnston]

15. and do this how? by becoming dictator?

[sharesunited]

18. The main reason for running for the Presidency is to shape and press policy.

It is difficult for an anti to honestly run on that agenda due to the sickness of the patient.

Sort of like how the subject of an intervention needs to be tricked into showing up so they can be confronted with the truth of how out of control they are.

[Katya Mullethov]

21. They were riding the ragged edge of this one

Tricking people simply does not work , especially when you get caught .

[sharesunited]

22. The patient is not included in the decision making process for planning the intervention.

It's a secret from the patient until they can effectively be confronted about their problem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intervention_(counseling)

[rrneck]

25. Damn, you ruined our surprise.

And I was looking forward to seeing Chicago.

[sharesunited]

27. No one needs to trick me if I can be forced at gunpoint.

[rrneck]

39. A new record for you!

Your flight from mendacious sanctimony to obtuse denial blew our car windshields for miles around.

Well done.

[Straw Man]

42. If I've got this straight ...

... you're advocating a hypothetical POTUS lying his way into office and then declaring martial law to implement a secret agenda of total disarmament of the American public.

Wow. And people wonder why the NRA can get traction by appealing to the "paranoia" of gun owners.

[beevul]

30. One little problem with that shares.

We - gun owners and supporters of the right to keep and bear arms - are not YOUR patient.

Nor are we the governments patient.

Nor are we the ATFs patient.


Its nothing but arrogant presumptuousness and narcissism to assert otherwise, as you have.

[Katya Mullethov]

37. Madmen and addicts

requiring certain " processes ........... under the radar " .

Well , surprise surprise ! RADAR has changed a lot . . The "new media" is a powerful tool , we cannot be swayed by granting or denying an "official " status and direct access to the head knob polishers on the hill as they run their cock holsters . No Sir .

[rrneck]

24. I bet you get Christmas cards from Ted Nugent. nt

[gejohnston]

26. they go hunting together. Shares said my Tavor from Canada is in

customs now,

[rrneck]

40. I'm waiting for his IPO.

If I time it right I could retire.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TPaine7]

32. No he cannot, even with a stacked SCOTUS.

The only individual who could pull that off has the last name of "Almighty."

If Obama or any president attempted it, he would be impeached--at least. If the SCOTUS backed him, they would either be impeached or the Constitution would be amended to eliminate the bullshit arguments used against the Second Amendment. Any further attempts to foil the RKBA would lead to civil war. The anti's would lose. Badly.

[rl6214]

19. Broke record

You know this won't happen yet you keep spouting the same bullshit.

[TheCowsCameHome]

3. More Fox News.

Just can't get enough of it around here.

[beevul]

5. Did you say the same thing when our resident anti-gun spammer used them? N/T

[TheCowsCameHome]

8. Go ahead - name him/her.

[friendly_iconoclast]

17. See for yourself, less than a week ago:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x426176


I like how a Murdoch-run source becomes acceptable for our anti friends when it says what they want to hear.

[beevul]

29. Hello darkness my old friend...

Hello darkness, my old friend,
I've come to talk with you again,
Because a vision softly creeping,
Left its seeds while I was sleeping,
And the vision that was planted in my brain
Still remains
Within the sound of silence.

In restless dreams I walked alone
Narrow streets of cobblestone,
'Neath the halo of a street lamp,
I turned my collar to the cold and damp
When my eyes were stabbed by the flash of a neon light
That split the night
And touched the sound of silence.

And in the naked light I saw
Ten thousand people, maybe more.
People talking without speaking,
People hearing without listening,
People writing songs that voices never share
And no one dared
Disturb the sound of silence.

"Fools" said I, "You do not know
Silence like a cancer grows.
Hear my words that I might teach you,
Take my arms that I might reach you."
But my words like silent raindrops fell,
And echoed
In the wells of silence.

And the people bowed and prayed
To the neon god they made.
And the sign flashed out its warning,
In the words that it was forming.
And the sign said, the words of the prophets are written on the subway walls
And tenement halls.
And whisper'd in the sounds of silence."



The sound of silence.

So loud its deafening right about now.

[TheCowsCameHome]

35. Good song..

..but the same old dance.

[RSillsbee]

41. And the words of the prophets were written on the studio walls

And concert halls

and echoed w/ the sounds of salesmen

[Drale]

10. It does seem people are trying to use Faux as a reliable source

more and more lately doesn't it?

[gejohnston]

16. it works both ways

since Think Progress repeats the AQ "you can buy machine guns with no background checks" meme as fact, is there really a difference?

[ileus]

4. More dead for the ATF = furthering their agenda. They don't mind news like this.

[safeinOhio]

7. Come on now.

If criminals didn't get guns from the ATF they'd just make them in their basements with a few simple tools, or steal them from legal owners.

:sarcasm:

[TPaine7]

13. But that would be hard to harness to generate support among the gullible for

draconian gun control in the US.

That wouldn't make supervisors in the program "giddy."

[ileus]

36. It appears the the FEDs are willing to accept DEAD Mexicans to get their agenda passed.

[RaleighNCDUer]

6. But, I have it on very good authority that the cartels don't bother with

straw purchases of semi-auto weapons - they all buy full auto military weapons from El Salvador.

Right?

[Straw Man]

9. They buy both.

Predominantly the latter.

But you knew that.

[AtheistCrusader]

31. I'd like to see better/honest numbers out of weapons siezed.

I don't know that it is predominantly the latter, but certainly the latter weapons have a disproportionally higher impact, being suppressive fire capable firearms, since the cartels have the manpower and mobility to actually employ these weapons in that role.

[rl6214]

20. Actually I think the arguement is that the full auto weapons

and heavier shown in news reports or proclaimed to have come from US gun shows or gun stores are not being purchased across the border in the US but are coming from central and south America.

[gejohnston]

23. why bother with straw purchase semi autos when

they can go to Wal Mart and any gun show and pick up a full auto with no background check, or at least that is what Al Qaida says. Frank Lautenberg believes it, so should I, right?

[AtheistCrusader]

28. Nice strawman. Can you make it dance and do tricks?

No one ever said NONE of the guns are from straw purchases in the US.

In fact, most of us have wanted the ATF to ACTUALLY INVESTIGATE denied purchases, and straw purchasers. They aren't. That's the problem.
EVERY SINGLE NICS DENIAL should be followed up with at the VERY least, a summons.

[Straw Man]

33. Careful...

EVERY SINGLE NICS DENIAL should be followed up with at the VERY least, a summons.

That would be an overreaction: NICS denials are sometimes just mistakes. Red-flag each denial for further investigation, yes. The issue would be to find false information on the 4473 form: if any can be proven, then the denial was legitimate and legal action should follow.

But the ATF won't do this. They don't have the manpower because they're too busy playing Junior G-Man on the border.

[AtheistCrusader]

38. I don't think a summons would be unreasonable.

And, yes, predicated on the signed 4473, which is already complete before the NICS check is attempted.

It need not be a criminal procedure up front, like a traffic infraction summons. Opportunity to have the subject's name cleared as well, as a lot of NICS failures are false positives.

[PavePusher]

43. Sorry, "innocent until proven guilty".

The ATF/FBI can do the legwork to put an actual case together first, then confront the Citizen. That's the proper order of things in this country.

[AtheistCrusader]

44. They essentially have. It's the equivalent of a cop writing you a ticket.

Signing your name doesn't imply guilt, only receipt of the summons.

Same here. You signed, you submitted, whoops, you were denied. Come in and explain yourself. (Contest it, plead guilty or other.)

[slackmaster]

34. Please cite the authority that says Mexican criminal gangs never use straw-purchased semiautos

I won't hold my breath waiting for a meaningful reply from you.

[Tejas]

46. Mexico didn't get the memo?

We didn't tell you a few thousand firearms were going to be dumped into your country? Sorry about that, we'll make sure to have our DOJ people get with your DOJ people next time.