(Democratic) Bills will punish gun owners, advocates say (GOP whinage)

[jpak]

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2011/06/22/gun_control_measures_called_misguided_at_hearing/

Republican lawmakers and gun rights advocates testified yesterday that a series of gun control measures promoted by Democrats — requiring imprinted serial numbers on firearms, “microstamped’’ bullets, and annual limits on gun purchases — would punish lawful gun owners, increase costs, and hamper a 5,000-job industry.

“In order to try and curb and curtail the violence, we’re penalizing those that are not the culprits,’’ said state Representative Daniel Webster, a Pembroke Republican. “I would suggest to you that in the vast majority of cases, people that are misusing guns are doing it when they don’t have licenses to carry.’’

Critics of stricter controls on gun ownership and purchasing blamed black market transactions, Mexican drug cartels, and even the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives for enabling criminals to access guns without licenses, and they argued that any additional oversight could put gun ownership out of reach for lawful citizens.

Opponents of microstamping legislation, which would require gun manufacturers to etch serial numbers into firearms and introduce technology in which fired bullets would be “microstamped’’ with a matching number, argued that it would be easily thwarted by criminals and would add to the cost of guns.

<more>

GOP morans whine while people die

yup

[Kolesar]

1. How do "serial numbers" penalize Daniel Webster?

Unless he sells guns to gangsters.

[gejohnston]

5. why would someone propose useless law unless

the supporters take campaign cash or own stock in the company that created it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_microstamping

[Kolesar]

27. Penalize? eom

[AtheistCrusader]

12. All firearms are required to have serial numbers, save old antiques and curios.

So what that line was talking about was microstamping, which is prohibitively expensive, and doesn't work.

[RSillsbee]

35. close but not quite

All firearms manufactured after 1968 are required to have serial numbers, save old antiques and curios.

I think that's a little more accurate
TYPO

[AtheistCrusader]

37. Are you sure it's that recent?

Hell, even my savage 1889 has a serial number.

[RSillsbee]

39. Many manufacturers put serial numbers on their products

but it wasn't legally required until CGA 1968

[-..__...]

40. 1968 GCA

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_Control_Act_of_1968#Marking_Requirements

Also... if a non FFL manufactures a firearm for their own use, no serial number is required (downside is with rare exception, they can never sell or transfer it).

However, there is a limitation on ones being able to manufacture a non-serial numbered firearm.

The receiver of the firearm has to be 80% or less in the stage of completion, in order for it to be exempt from having a serial number (stripped 100% receivers must have a serial number).

One of the more common "80%" receivers available is for the AK47.

All the buyer has to do is complete the work, purchase a surplus parts kit (in the case of an imported AK-47 parts kit, the builder also has to use
a certain number of USA manufactured parts), put it all together and have a fully functioning semi-auto AK... no serial number required.

[Deep13]

2. The serial # thing is technically unworkable. nt

[tridim]

4. If we can build quantum computers, we can put serial #'s on bullets.

Why do you think it isn't possible?

[gejohnston]

6. If we can send probes to Mars

we can build a time machine and transporter beams too.

[Deep13]

8. Um, false equivalency.

First, I did not say it was impossible. I said it is unworkable.

A firing pin is only about a 16th of an inch wide. On it you would have to put an 8 to 15 digit serial number unique to that gun. That is extremely difficult. Second, even if somehow you can mass produce that, there is no way it will imprint on the hard metallic surface of the primer cap or case rim. Now maybe you might think it is okay to use the cost and technical infeasibility to drive gun makers out of business, but those who use them and in some cases need them do not share that view.

And anyway, there would still be no serial # on the bullet, only the spent casing.

[tridim]

14. Lasers can etch characters a few atoms wide, quickly, accurately and efficiently.

[Deep13]

18. And you propose putting these lasers and their guidance inside the firing pin of a pistol?

Remember, it's the casing that gets stamped, not the gun. Letter that tiny, even if it were feasible which it is not, would be pounded flat the first time the trigger was pulled. And of course anyone who uses the gun for a crime can simply run an emory board over the firing pin a couple of times to destroy the imprint. This is fantasy, it will not happen at least in the foreseeable future.

[MicaelS]

19. Then people will turn to lead bullets they cast themselves...

All you need is the lead, a pot to melt it in, and a bullet mold.

And then criminals will turn to revolvers, since they don't eject the case.

No case, plus homemade lead bullet defeats any micro-stamping or use of laser, or any beam device.

Only way to trace is the old fashioned way, off the rifling on the bullet.

[RSillsbee]

36. Even if you could work out the logistics

what about the 300+ million guns in this country that don't have that technology?

[rl6214]

9. YOU gonna come to my house and put the seriel number

on the bullets I make?

[Blown330]

10. Isn't a matter of it being possible...

...it's a matter of practicality. Also, you need to brush up on your technical understanding. The technology doesn't stamp bullets, it stamps shell casings. Simply put, the technology is easily defeated (and self-defeating given enough time), does not increase the likely hood of successfully tracing a gun, and is simply another feel-good measure taken up by people who have little understanding of physics, material sciences, and engineering.

[drpepper67]

11. It's totally possible.

But let's say you have a revolver that doesn't eject the casing.

Or you're smart enough to pick up your brass or use a brass catcher.

Kinda defeats the purpose.

Also, the stamp on the firing pin will;

Wear off

Be intentionally rubbed off

New firing pin installed

It's not really going to solve anything.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

15. Well for one thing, many of us can make our own

[rl6214]

3. Blah, blah, blah

Who really gives a fuck about your whining NRA/GOP shtick?

Only you.

YUP

YUP

YUP

[krispos42]

7. Firearms are already serialized. It's been federal law for 43 years.

So... :wtf:

Microstamping doesn't work, so if the Dems are still pushing this, then their real aim is to pass a law that give them political street cred with people like, well, you. And make the costs of guns go up, which gives them political street cred with people like, well, you.

I don't object to annual limits on gun purchases. I object to monthly limits on gun purchases.

[One_Life_To_Give]

13. Feel Good legislation

The only winner in this legislation is the Micro-Stamp Equipment manufacturer.

Like the police are not confiscating a stream of weapons now, serialized and traceable? They come from illegal straw purchases. Here in MA and more likely in NH and VT. If you want to solve the gun crime problem go after the Straw Purchases and Illegal Transfers.

[X_Digger]

16. Technology that can be defeated by a fingernail file and 10 minutes of work?

Yeah, let's force gun companies to re-tool and pass those costs on to customers.

If we're lucky, some will refuse and stop making handguns, or customers won't pay the extra cost, driving the company out of business!

After all, it's not about solving crimes, it's about deterring production and/or ownership of guns.

:sarcasm:

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lawodevolution]

21. in the same way you support the republican led brady campaign

[gejohnston]

23. oh I don't know

I think we have pretty valid points. Most of the stuff on your side is a lot of feel good theater. I say we put serial numbers and register all bongs. Until they give up the stupid war on drugs, their owners contribute more to gun and gang violence than all us put together.

[gejohnston]

28. what I think is a disgrace are

people who claim to be liberal but are dogmatic, bigoted, authoritarian on their own pet issues.

lib·er·al (lbr-l, lbrl)
adj.
1.
a. Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.
b. Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded.
c. Of, relating to, or characteristic of liberalism.
d. Liberal Of, designating, or characteristic of a political party founded on or associated with principles of social and political liberalism, especially in Great Britain, Canada, and the United States.
2.
a. Tending to give freely; generous: a liberal benefactor.
b. Generous in amount; ample: a liberal serving of potatoes.
3. Not strict or literal; loose or approximate: a liberal translation.
4. Of, relating to, or based on the traditional arts and sciences of a college or university curriculum: a liberal education.
5.
a. Archaic Permissible or appropriate for a person of free birth; befitting a lady or gentleman.
b. Obsolete Morally unrestrained; licentious.

[-..__...]

20. I attended the hearing...

didn't speak as there were many others in attendance that were better qualified and had vastly more experience than I do.

Overall... the 2nd amendment/Constitutional rights side had an excellent showing and we received positive response from some committee members

Many fine and knowledgeable speakers presented our side in a brief and well thought out manner.

The antis... not quite so.

About all they could manage was the same jaw-ratcheting trip and hand-wringing scare tactics... "crime ridden neighborhoods", "firearms trafficking", "for the children", etc

FWIW... just about everyone of the proposed bills has been submitted in previous years, and with the same results, they simply die in committee.

I'm reasonably confident that the current batch of legislative nonsense will meet with a similar fate.

[jpak]

22. So the Republicans gave a "positive response"? to the GOP/NRA Cling-On parade?

:shrug:

[gejohnston]

24. Reason and logic wins out over theater and emotion

So, why are you not against the EPA? It was signed into law by Dick Nixon, Republican (crook)

[-..__...]

26. Yeah...

All 3 7 of them...


Joint Committee on Public Safety and Homeland Security

http://www.malegislature.gov/Committees/Joint/J22
http://www.goal.org/senateratings.html
http://www.goal.org/houseratings.html


Senate Chair
James E. Timilty (D) – A+ GOAL ENDORSED
Phone: [phone]
[e-mail]


Senate Vice Chair
Michael O. Moore (D) – A GOAL ENDORSED
Phone: [phone]
District Office
Phone: [phone] x 13
[e-mail]


House Chair
Harold P. Naughton, Jr (D) – A+ GOAL ENDORSED
Phone: [phone]
District Office
Phone: [phone]
[e-mail]


House Vice Chair
Michael D. Brady (D) – UNRATED
Phone: [phone]
[e-mail]

Senate Members

Katherine Clark (D) – C Rating
Phone: [phone]
[e-mail]


Mark C. Montigny (D) – C Rating
Phone: [phone]
District Office
Phone: [phone]
[e-mail]


James T. Welch (D) – A Rating
Phone: [phone]
District Office
Phone: [phone]
[e-mail]


Richard J. Ross (R) – A+ GOAL ENDORSED
Phone: [phone]
[e-mail]


House Members

Bruce J. Ayers (D) – A rating
Phone: [phone]
[e-mail]


David M. Torrisi (D) – B Rating
Phone: [phone]
District Office
Phone: [phone]
[e-mail]


Cleon H. Turner (D) – B Rating
Phone: [phone]
[e-mail]


Linda Dean Campbell (D) – D Rating
Phone: [phone]
District Office
Phone: [phone]
[e-mail]


Brian M. Ashe (D) – UNRATED
Phone: [phone]
[e-mail]


James J. Dwyer (D) – UNRATED
Phone: [phone]
[e-mail]


Rhonda L. Nyman (D) – UNRATED
Phone: [phone]
[e-mail]


David T. Vieira (R) – 98% GOAL ENDORSED
Phone: [phone]
[e-mail]


Nicholas A. Boldyga (R) – UNRATED
Phone: [phone]
[e-mail]

[friendly_iconoclast]

48. IOW, even the heavily Democratic MA Legislature won't agree to this steaming pile.

That alone illustrates the degraded state of gun prohibitionism these days.

[Kolesar]

25. "the 2nd amendment/Constitutional rights side" ... lol

[-..__...]

31. If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck

Quack...quack.

[bowens43]

29. Good.

The more regulation , the more control of guns and ammunition the better.

There should be no such thing as a 'lawful gun owner'.

[gejohnston]

30. why?

lawful bong owners contribute more to gun violence than all of us.

[PavePusher]

33. Very Authoritarian of you.

Isn't that team over there? ==>

[rl6214]

44. Oh so you're one of those

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Nothing "good" about it because nothing will ever get passed except more concealed carry laws, more castle doctrine laws, move school carry laws and so on and so forth.

In case you haven't checked lately, your side is losing and losing big.

[Abq_Sarah]

46. Good luck with that

Are you going to get a constitutional amendment passed?

I wouldn't bet the house on it.

[spin]

32. Why would any knowledgeable person support a useless "feel good" law...

that could easily be defeated by using a file? The NRA is praying that the liberal Democrats support this idea and push really hard for its implementation. The NRA-ILA would be able to launch a very effective campaign to get donations and would use this legislation to increase its membership and to get voters to the polls to vote against Democrats who favor draconian gun control. Unfortunately many of these voters will vote against rational Democrats who do not oppose RKBA.

Dirks: Micro-stamping ammunition is a waste of Legislature's time
Published: 2:00 AM - 06/15/10

"According to the bill, 'firearm micro-stamping is an evolutionary forensic technology that produces an alpha-numeric and geometric code onto the rear of the cartridge casing each time a semiautomatic pistol is fired.' The idea being that law enforcement can then use that code to identify the owner of the pistol and generally aid in their investigation.

***snip***

"To those of us who legally own guns, this just doesn't make sense. To the non-gun owner, this bill sounds logical and that's the danger here. We need the folks who don't own guns to understand what this bill will do beyond its intent. Law-abiding gun owners recognize that this bill will not do anything to either solve homicides or reduce illegal gun trafficking.

"Let me explain. The basic principle of this bill is that by requiring semiautomatic pistols to micro-stamp ammunition, law enforcement will able to trace the shell casings to the gun micro-stamped it. Do you think criminals are going to run out and get one that can micro-stamp their ammunition? "Criminals who do bad things with any gun don't follow gun regulations regardless of what the law prescribes. If anything, micro-stamping laws may actually increase illegal gun trafficking. What illegal gun hawker wouldn't want to take advantage of this legislation and sell pistols that don't have micro-stamping capabilities? If this law passes, we just gave illegal gun traffickers another great business opportunity.

"I think it's safe to say that the criminals would either buy older pistols that didn't have micro-stamping capabilities, or replace the firing pin with one that can't micro-stamp. Who said criminals were stupid? By and large, they are not stupid and they always find ways that easily by pass laws, both old and new.
http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100615/SPORTS/6150334/-1/SPORTS

President Obama has discussed improvements in our gun control laws that I support as I feel they would be far more effective than foolish ideas such as microstamping ammo.

President Obama: We must seek agreement on gun reforms
President Barack Obama Special To The Arizona Daily Star | Posted: Sunday, March 13, 2011 12:00 am

***snip***

• First, we should begin by enforcing laws that are already on the books. The National Instant Criminal Background Check System is the filter that's supposed to stop the wrong people from getting their hands on a gun. Bipartisan legislation four years ago was supposed to strengthen this system, but it hasn't been properly implemented. It relies on data supplied by states - but that data is often incomplete and inadequate. We must do better.

• Second, we should in fact reward the states that provide the best data - and therefore do the most to protect our citizens.

• Third, we should make the system faster and nimbler. We should provide an instant, accurate, comprehensive and consistent system for background checks to sellers who want to do the right thing, and make sure that criminals can't escape it.

Porous background checks are bad for police officers, for law-abiding citizens and for the sellers themselves. If we're serious about keeping guns away from someone who's made up his mind to kill, then we can't allow a situation where a responsible seller denies him a weapon at one store, but he effortlessly buys the same gun someplace else.
http://azstarnet.com/article_011e7118-8951-5206-a878-39bfbc9dc89d.html

[-..__...]

34. There's a method to their madness.

and it has very little to do with solving crimes/tracing crime guns.

At least as far the legal ownership of firearms by citizens in MA goes, the people pushing the micro-stamping crap are fully aware

that no firearms manufacturer is going to invest in the "technology" for such a small market area.

The expense wouldn't justify the cost, and it's pretty much guaranteed that if any manufacturer did implement micro-stamping, a national boycott

would bury and bankrupt them.

And since no sane manufacturer would want to risk that, the end result would be a de facto ban on new semi-automatic handguns in MA.

[spin]

38. I suspect that your are right but what would happen is that gun smuggling ...

would increase.

Honest people would be unable to buy semi-auto firearms but the criminals would have plenty of semi-autos that didn't microstamp ammo.

[gejohnston]

41. or start using full autos more like they do in Europe nt

[ileus]

42. give them an inch....

[Glassunion]

43. More importantly.

Was Daniel Webster wearing that cool Carlos Santana tie? Snappy!

[X_Digger]

45. ... and where was the devil? n/t

[RamboLiberal]

47. The morans here are Dems who bring up this moronic feel good

crap legislation that does squat to reduce crime. This one is as dumb as the AWB which was ineffective, written stupidly to expire and only gave the Repubs & NRA more ammo against Dems.