When a Terrorist Wants to Buy a Gun

[jpak]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/26/us/26cncwarren.html

Don Mastrianni, owner of Illinois Gun Works in Elmwood Park, was telling me last week about attending a Chicago seminar sponsored by the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

“Some official was saying that if a guy shows up in a suit and tie and wants to buy a gun, you can pretty much figure he doesn’t belong in a gang. But I said: ‘Are you naïve?! Gangs have guys who dress up nice and buy guns, too.’ ”

While giving me a primer on buying guns, Mr. Mastrianni was surprised when I told him this: Somebody can be barred from taking a flight at O’Hare International Airport because he is a suspected terrorist but not from buying a gun at Mr. Mastrianni’s shop.

Yes, this might even give pause to a few die-hard Fox News Channel viewers (edit - morans), whom one presumes exhibit Pavlovian fidelity to the Second Amendment right to “keep and bear arms.”

<more>

[Straw Man]

1. More love for the G.W. Bush watch lists.

And hatred for due process.

Yup. Yup.

[spin]

2. I would have no problem with denying sales based on the terrorist watch list ...

if the list was accurate.

Unfortunately it is not.

Top No-Fly List Problems - - Top Ways to Avoid No-Fly List Problems

Almost every government agency has a terrorist watchlist: there's the TSA No Fly list, the OFAC Specially Designated Nationals list, a State Department List, and an FBI list. As these lists grow, so do the number of innocent people flagged as suspected terrorists.

It doesn't take that much to be flagged. All you need to have is a name that is almost like one on a list. What can you do to find out if you are one of those people? And what can you do if you are flagged? Unfortunately, there is still no full recourse for the innocent. But here are some steps you can take.

***snip***

4. Contact an Attorney, If You are Placed on a No Fly List in Error

The DHS TRIP process is designed to help those who have been delayed or detained in error because their names are like those who are on the list. In a few cases, however, people who are not terrorists have discovered themselves--as themselves--on lists, without the opportunity to figure out why (since the No Fly Lists are not subject to Freedom of Information Act requests). If you are in this rare situation, contact your attorney for further steps.

http://terrorism.about.com/od/beingprepared/tp/Watchlist.htm

These lists offer opportunity for bureaucratic mistakes, incompetence and also for political retribution.

I remember many years ago I was buying a new firearm from a store and when the clerk ran the NICS background check, he was asked in what city I was born. Apparently someone with a similar name was flagged. The problem was sorted out quickly and I left the store with the firearm as I have a concealed weapons permit and therefore can avoid the waiting period in my state.

I have bought several firearms since that time without problem.

While it is unlikely that you will buy a firearm, how would you feel if an inaccurate list was used to refuse your purchase?

[baldguy]

4. The TSA's No-Fly list is entirely different than the FBI's Terrorist Watch List.

Trying to conflate the two is RW propaganda.

[gejohnston]

7. Oh you mean the list that is made up of

anti war pacifists
people who are in opposition to fracking in Pennsylvania
protest against the banksters
PETA members
people who wore the wrong tee shirt at a George Bush rally
union organizers in West Virginia
pro choice activists

but has none of these people
KKK members
Al Qaida members
abortion clinic bombers
various right wing militia groups

You need to listen to Pacifica more often.

[petronius]

9. The columnist cited in the OP appears to be lamenting the fact that the TSA no-fly list

isn't being used to deny firearms purchases.

And I don't think the FBI and TSA lists are actually different - the no-fly and selectee lists are subsets of the FBI Terrorist Screening Database, according to this: http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/nsb/tsc/tsc_faqs

(Of course, the FBI also runs NICS, but I've never seen that confused or conflated with a terrorist watch list.)

[Straw Man]

14. Not true. One is a subset of the other.

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/070211/19watch.htm

RW propaganda? The master list was W's brainchild. And we all know how much the RW hates him.

[friendly_iconoclast]

16. Were you against the FBI's Terrorist Watch List before you were for it?

Or have you been copacetic with it all along?

[friendly_iconoclast]

29. Busted! - You changed your tune when guns were added to the equation:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3031131#3032492

I can't wait to hear that we've always been at war with Eastasia....

[aikoaiko]

30. Not a surprise at all.

:thumbsdown:

[PavePusher]

31. I do love the Way-Back machine.... n/t

[friendly_iconoclast]

32. Twas the 'donor search' function, actually- but the Wayback Machine works as well.

I was merely doing my bit to keep up our reputation for being a malevolently well informed lot.

Pointing out the hypocrisy and cognitive dissonance of the prohibitionist set just makes it all the more fun....

[aikoaiko]

28. So you're accusing the NYT piece cited in this article of RW propaganda?

Why, if the lists are so different, would the NYT write, "Somebody can be barred from taking a flight at O’Hare International Airport because he is a suspected terrorist but not from buying a gun at Mr. Mastrianni’s shop."

If there is no relationship between the two lists, then that sentence makes no sense.

You need to get your own propaganda straight before spouting off.

[baldguy]

3. Because good guys *always* wear a suit & tie - and bad guys never do.

"Pavlovian" is the absolute correct word for the firearms-induced myopia of most conservatives.

[gejohnston]

self delete

[gejohnston]

8. hey that is what the ATF said.

[spin]

10. The ATF management are the Keystone Cops of law enforcement...

having said that it wouldn't surprise me if my name showed up on some list.

Unfortunately, I merely speak the truth.

[gejohnston]

21. I was thinking more like the

dim witted cops that Jessica Fletcher always bailed out.

[ZombieHorde]

5. Do you like the terrorist watch list? nt

[gejohnston]

6. If you go back through Think Progress an Rachel Maddow archives,

you will find that there are no suspected terrorists on those lists. That is why they were against the list before they were for it. Next canard?

[DanTex]

11. 'Pavlovian fidelity to the Second Amendment right to “keep and bear arms.”'

Nice.

[Straw Man]

12. So you are in favor of secret blacklists that circumvent due process?

Nice.

[jeepnstein]

24. Yes, yes he is.

Blacklists are all sorts of fun as long as the people you're putting on the list aren't people you like. You can just push them around any old way with no way for the victim to defend himself against the charges. This is great fun for a certain kind of authoritarian. Left wing, right wing, both kinds of jack boots hurt when they're run up your backsides.

[benEzra]

20. This thread is about the Pavlovian fidelity to the secret Bush blacklists.

Since you have so conveniently forgotten why progressives opposed the terrah blacklists, let me refresh your memory:

U.S. Government "No Fly List" Is Unconstitutional and Ineffective (ACLU)

Unlikely Suspects (ACLU)

No-fly blacklist snares political activists

Marshals: Innocent People Placed On 'Watch List' To Meet Quota

Infants on the Terrorist Watch List

http://www.democracynow.org/2003/9/18/govt_sets_up_massive_watchlist_of">'Known or suspected terrorists' is BS (Democracy Now)


And you might consider that the proposal you are so passionately defending (e.g., to revoke the gun rights of people on the secret blacklists) is a Bush Administration proposal.

[krispos42]

13. Gosh, they can buy a 5,000-pound 110-mph pedestrian-squisher, too

How many people waiting in line at a security checkpoint to watch a ball game can a terrorist with a Suburban and a lead foot kill?

And... they can run for office! They can HOLD office! They can vote! They can hide their guild behind lawyers and the Bill of Rights! They can be doctors! They can be media personalities that influence millions of people daily! They can buy caustic chemicals at a home-improvement store!

Oh the humanity!


:eyes:


Methinks that a) being able to fly isn't a constitutional right, b) hijacked airliner is a much larger and more destructive weapon than a gun.


The horse is dead; quit flogging it before you sprain something.

[ileus]

15. why would any moran want to deny someone their rights based

on a secret list that the government keeps...F that.

[lawodevolution]

17. That's because the USA isn't a banana republic yet and you lose a right through due process not just

because the government doesn't like you and labels you a terrorist.

[PavePusher]

18. McCarthyism, it's all the rage now...

"I have here in my hand a list of 205—a list of names that were made known to the Secretary of State as being members of...."

Too bad it's still as vile now as it was then, and that so many Dems seem to love it now.

[AtheistCrusader]

19. I thought I heard the sound of someone sucking George W. Bush's dick in here.

Stop that. It's disgusting.

You might catch something.

[eqfan592]

22. jpak MUST attack gun rights and gun owners....

....no matter the cost, apparently.

[rl6214]

23. Same old jpak bullshit

with no comment as usual.

[Remmah2]

25. In finer circles that's called profiling.

I'll have to dress up next trip to the gun shop.

[krispos42]

26. Seems to me that a convicted terrorist just might be on the NICS don't-buy list

These "terrorists" you speak of must not be convicted... which makes them "accused terrorists".



But wait, there's more!


They're not even "accused terrorists", they're "suspected terrorists".



So once again, you've got nothing but you're flogging the "terrorism" smear anyway. What's your opinion on invading Iraq to go after Al-Qaeda?

[Glassunion]

27. The entire article is based on a flat out lie.

From the article: "While giving me a primer on buying guns, Mr. Mastrianni was surprised when I told him this: Somebody can be barred from taking a flight at O’Hare International Airport because he is a suspected terrorist but not from buying a gun at Mr. Mastrianni’s shop." emphasis mine

The truth of the matter is that it is a list of "names" not "suspected terrorists". Using the logic of the article, and the volume of "names" on the list one could make the false assumption that there are literally millions of "suspected terrorists" in this country. The bloated list contains over 1/2 a million "names". How many people in the US happen to share a name with someone on that list? Once could easily assume millions. There is one "name" on the list that matches exactly to over 3,500 other people in the US(not including initials) according to census data.


1. There are "names" on the list of deceased terrorists. They are dead, they are not going to buy a gun, however every poor SOB who has the same name... Or in a lot of cases the same initials and last name gets hassled every time they go to take a flight.
2. Where was the list when the underwear bomber was allowed to bard a plane?
3. The list of names is comprised of mostly Non-US citizens(about 95%). All of whom would be ineligible to purchase a firearm in the US anyway.
4. No one is barred from boarding a flight because their name is on the list. Thousands of people who have a match to names on the list are allowed to fly every day.
5. If these people are such a danger to our safety, why haven't we arrested them?

Who needs facts? This journalist should be fired.

[one-eyed fat man]

33. Of course it is, that's why jpak loves it so. nt

[WatsonT]

34. If they really are terrorists who should be stripped of their rights why aren't they in jail?

And for that matter, why weren't they tried?

I find it amusing how ardently certain people argued against holding suspected terrorists without a trial then also come back and say we should use the same mechanisms to strip American citizens of their rights with no trial.

[friendly_iconoclast]

36. Cognitive dissonance. It's what's for dinner!-if you're a prohibitionist- n/t

[Atypical Liberal]

35. DUE. PROCESS. OF. LAW.

Learn it, live it.