Authorities: Live bullets fired at Old West show

[n2doc]

HET BROKAW, Associated Press
Updated 08:48 p.m., Saturday, June 25, 2011

PIERRE, S.D. (AP) — One of the participants in a mock Old West gun battle in South Dakota fired live ammunition instead of using blanks, wounding three tourists, authorities announced Friday.

More than 100 people attended the show a week ago staged by the Dakota Wild Bunch re-enactors, who perform several times a week in Hill City, a tourist town in the Black Hills.

Pennington County Sheriff Kevin Thom said information gathered by investigators will be given to state and federal prosecutors next week to determine whether criminal charges are filed.

"What it boils down to is was it accidental or was it intentional. It would be premature to speculate on that at this point," Thom said. "I can say there was not a specific target in the crowd, if you will."



Read more: http://www.seattlepi.com/news/article/Authorities-Live-bullets-fired-at-Old-West-show-1439313.php

[tridim]

1. Accidental or not, criminal charges should be filed.

Why is this even a question?

[SteveW]

39. Has the OP answered your question?

[valerief]

2. Ain't it grand anyone can shoot a gun anytime they want, anywhere they want? Laws be damned!

Hell, there aren't any gun laws left now anyway. As it should be. People should be free to shoot whomever they want. 2nd amendment right, after all.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[slackmaster]

5. I've never seen such a high density of nonsense in a post on DU

:crazy:

How about a little empathy for the injured victims, valerief?

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[valerief]

8. Wow, did you really not detect ANY sarcasm??? nt

[petronius]

11. You really should stop attempting sarcasm - you're not good at it

But if you want to discuss firearms and/or firearm policy seriously, I'm sure we're all eager to hear your thoughts... :hi:

[ileus]

19. not much different than what we see normally around here.

[damntexdem]

6. Hear, hear.

Here's some support while you endure the coming flames.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Straw Man]

34. Educate yourself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_United_States_%28by_state%29

[AtheistCrusader]

36. What an interesting planet you live on.

[SteveW]

40. Judging from your comments, you seem turned on by the prospect. nt

[Drale]

4. This is how Brandon Lee died on the set of the Crow.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandon_Lee#Death

[tortoise1956]

9. Pretty easy to straighten out...

Find out who carried real ammunition to the set, arrest him for negligence, battery, and any number of other charges they should be able to conjure up, throw him in jail, and call it good.

As for seeing this as a symptom of a sick gun-crazy crowd, I will accept that you may have a point IF you can show me 200 cases per year of accidental shootings that end in fatalities. Otherwise I will continue to call this a stupid mistake on someone's part and not a recurring threat.

[TheCowsCameHome]

10. Someone's gonna get their ass sued off.

Count on that.

[petronius]

12. I think that was already pretty likely, and rightfully so

Even if had just been blanks, they shouldn't have been fired in a potentially harmful direction or distance...

[slackmaster]

13. Correct. In film and theater it's standard practice to never point even a blank gun at a person.

Poor control procedures certainly played a role in this incident, but there also may have been sabotage.

[petronius]

17. Does a blank feel different to the person firing it, compared to a bullet?

Sabotage would certainly catapult things to movie-of-the-week status, or at least a good Law & Order episode. It would take a pretty screwed up person to set something like this in motion...

[slackmaster]

18. Yes, there is a huge difference in felt recoil

With a blank round there is very little or none, depending on the design of the gun (i.e. whether or not the barrel is fully obstructed, as it is on a typical starting pistol used at sporting events.

[one-eyed fat man]

20. Blanks are noticeably different

Since there is no projectile being expelled the recoil is significantly reduced. (Newton's Third Law and that whole equal and opposite business.)

Guns which depend on recoil to function must be fitted with various types of blank adapters to make them work. Note the red blank firing attachment on the M249 below. The color and prominence denotes the weapon is configured for training, and as a "warning" not to fire live ammo with it in place.



Here are a couple of "Hollywood" type blank adapters for an M16 which are designed to make the weapon function for movie work, yet appear unaltered as opposed to the military training device. Live ammunition fired in a gun so equipped would result in a catastrophic failure



Revolvers will function regardless as their function is purely mechanical. Reenactors should never have live ammunition around. Organized events using muzzle loaders, such as Revolutionary or Civil War use blank charges of loose powder. NO ramrods are permitted on the field. Countless ramrods got inadvertently launched on real battlefield by absent-minded or hasty real soldiers in the centuries before metallic cartridges were the norm, which is the reason for the rule.

Reenactments can be entertaining and safe, BUT, like a great many other things any incapacity or neglect can have tragic circumstances. If familiarity is permitted to breed contempt for rigorous safety protocols, or if the entire enterprise is not under the direction of responsible individual, Murphy's Law WILL prevail!

[PavePusher]

22. Ooops, not quite correct.....

"Guns which depend on recoil to function must be fitted with various types of blank adapters to make them work."

Change that to combustion gasses and you're right. Recoil semi's merely require a reduced-charge blank.

On gas-operated semi's (M16, M249 as pictured, AK47, etc), the plug is to build up sufficient gas pressure to work the action. On recoil semi's (many shotguns, machine-guns and semi-auto pistols) the plug is not required, but special ammo for each model of gun is.

[one-eyed fat man]

26. Back up, airedale ;-)

NSN 1005-01-091-7510:
Attachment, Firing, Blank Ammunition (BFA), M19, for M2 .50 Cal Machine Gun

If there is a classic example of a gun that is recoil operted, Ma Deuce be it!

How about one on an M1919A4 Browning?



As a tanker, I cut my teeth on recoil operated guns.
;-)

[PavePusher]

32. I stand corrected. Thanks for the info! n/t

[one-eyed fat man]

33. You are not all wrong.

Some guns, like the 1911 in .45 are tough to make work with blanks. In the 1941 movie, "Sgt York, " Gary Cooper was supposed to to use a 1911 .45 but the blanks wouldn't cycle the action so they had Sgt. York use a captured Luger for the film.

Most cases when a 1911 is used in a movie, it will be a 9mm or .38 Super version which can be made to function with blanks and a special barrel.

Also, in the movie Gary Cooper used a '03 Springfield, in real life it was a 1917 Enfield.

http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Sergeant_York

[SteveW]

41. Edward G. Robinson said they used real Tommy guns...

in his early movies where he had to duck down behind a barrier, and let a string of .45s stitch on by. This before Hollywood developed some standards.

[petronius]

29. Thanks, y'all - very informative answers! (Personally, I wouldn't ever have thought

of the ramrod issue - at least, not until I'd punctured somebody or something...)

[krispos42]

30. I've seen it first hand at Civil War reenactments

They just pour the powder in when they're re-enacting. For firing demos they'll use it, though, such as showing a group of visitors how the gun loaded and fired. But not during the re-enacting if there are others down-range.

[Straw Man]

35. I have friends who do Revolutionary War reenactments.

The groups around here don't mix firing demos and reenactments. At reenactments, participants are not even allowed to have shot in their possession, and yes, they have to submit their gear for a search. It's powder only.

[RSillsbee]

28. This was disscussed

In William Bradford Huie's book The Execution of Private Slovik, It was stated that with modern firearms there would be no doubt as to who had the blank because the blank wouldn’t cycle the action on the firearm. Thus, if you fire and your bolt doesn’t lock to the rear you fired a blank.
Mr. Huie only interviewed on member of the firing party and he ( The Member)stated that there was no doubt in his mind that he did not fire a blank

[krispos42]

31. It should

The payload of a blank is far less than a live load.


According to my Winchester reloader's manual, a live .45 Colt round has a payload of 7.1 grains of powder (smokeless) and a 255 grain bullet, for a total of 262.1 grains.


Remove the bullet and you lose 97.3% of the payload and thus a lot of the recoil.

[RSillsbee]

27. I got a chance to ask one of the directors of "Rookie Blue"

what there procedure was, he said: The "Gun Wrangler" brings the weapon to the set and delivers it to the person that will have the gun in the scene. They both verify that the weapon is unloaded and then the person that will be holding the gun in the scene verifies w/ the person he'll be pointing the gun at that the gun is unloaded. Then the person holding the weapon dry fires it and they shoot the scene. Then the Gun Wrangler verifies that the weapon is unloaded again and takes it back to the armoury.

The director said the rules have gotten pretty draconian since Brandon Lee died

[gejohnston]

14. interesting update

Isn't there companies that make prop guns that can't fire live rounds?
I understand that the actors watch each other load the guns and inspect the ammo. If that is true, what went wrong and why? At the risk of sounding like someone who reads too many Agatha Christie novels, a couple of things do not feel right.

How do you mistake this


for this?


This does not sound like an accident to me.

Four spent casings and two unfired cartridges with lead bullets were located near the scene Friday afternoon, the sheriff said. The gun, the casings and the bullets will be sent the state crime lab in Pierre for testing, he said.

[RamboLiberal]

16. They know who is the idiot!

The rounds were fired by re-enactor Paul Doering, 49, of Somerset, S.D., Sheriff Thom said. Charges may be filed against Mr. Doering.

"The facts of the investigation will be presented to the Pennington County State Attorney's Office and the U.S. Attorney's Office for possible criminal charges," Sheriff Thom said.

Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11178/1156592-100.stm#ixzz1QW4SO7XD

The streets of Hill City are back to normal now, but more than a week ago the scene was much different. Three people were hurt when four bullets shot into the crowd during a gun show reenactment.

"One was found in, on the sidewalk underneath a table and one was found in a grassy area after it had hit a car and bounced off," Pennington County Sheriff, Kevin Thom, said.

Thom said a third round went though a stop sign around 400 feet away. Authorities have an on-going investigation, and it's still unclear as to whether they will file criminal charges against Paul Doering, the man whose .45 caliber handgun fired the bullets.

http://www.keloland.com/News/NewsDetail6371.cfm?Id=117328

Damn right charges need to be filed!

[jpak]

21. but...but...but... Gungeoneers told us they WERE blanks

nevermind

yup

[PavePusher]

23. Did anyone claim that definitively?

I beleive it was put forth as a hypothesis, not a concrete claim. Unless you can cite to the contrary....?

[gejohnston]

25. That is what the evidence pointed to then. Things change as more info comes to light

something tells me there will be more to this story that will come out.

[jberryhill]

24. I think the promotional brochure cover provides and important clue

[ileus]

37. Time to ban movie props...

[Francis Marion]

38. Preventable outcome, questionable idea in general

Talked to a Williams, AZ cowboy shooter hired to entertain tourists with regularly scheduled gunfights- the entertainers were shooting proper, fully functional weapons in their show.

"Will that pistol take a live 45 Long Colt round?"
"Yes- I have to make sure to use blanks."

Full body cringe.