Brown v. EMA casts doubt on the “weapons effect” justification for gun control

[hack89]

Today’s Supreme Court decision in Brown v. EMA casts doubt on one of the shibboleths of gun prohibition.

Since the 1960s, some social scientists have been attempting to prove that guns cause violence. They do not make this claim in the straightforward sense that guns, as tools, can be used for malign purposes–for example, that a criminal with a gun might attempt a robbery which would he would consider too risky if he did not have a gun. Rather, the claim is that the presence of makes ordinary people more aggressive, anti-social and violent. Thus, as one study put it, “the trigger pulls the finger.” The hypothesis is known as “the weapons effect.”

Over the subsequent decades, researchers tried, with little success, to replicate experiments proving a weapons effect. To the limited extent that any effects could be found, they tended to be confined to subjects with no prior experience with firearms, and they never succeeded in finding any actual resulting violence. Instead, they found, at most, trivial results, such as how some subjects reacted to various words after being prompted with gun imagery.

The studies on video games have led, at worst, to some minors being unconstitutionally deprived of video games. In contrast, the “weapons effect” has become an article of faith among many anti-gun advocates, who are convinced that guns turn peaceable people into dangerous aggressors. Many anti-gun laws have been enacted in part because of this wrongful idea, and some of those laws have deprived the victims of violent crimes from having the means of effective self-defense. Indeed, continuing belief in the non-existent weapons effect is a major reason why nine states still deny law-abiding trained adults the constitutional right to carry licensed firearms for lawful protection in public places.

http://volokh.com/2011/06/27/47830/

[PavePusher]

1. Exploding heads in 5... 4... 3... 2... n/t

[sharesunited]

2. Do I really need to post the dozen or more shooting stories from overnight?

They will look very much like yesterday morning's ration.

[Remmah2]

3. Sure, why not.

It keep you off the streets.

[ileus]

5. more zombie gun stories killing people at will...those are my favorite

[dmallind]

6. Sure go ahead - it's possible a few lurkers haven't yet discovered

that you can't tell the difference between anecdotes and data. Every attempt to present the former sgainst the latter will generally help cement for them the utter lack of credibility on the part of one who does so.

[ileus]

4. money and drugs cause most violence...

[BeFree]

7. Nice flippity flop

Guns don't cause most violence... ""money and drugs cause most violence""

And is it not true that the courts have upheld regulations on owners of guns?
They must have some good reasons for allowing rights to be limited, eh?

And as for the OP... garbage report.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

36. I think you are being sarcastic . . .

pretty sure.

yup.

[Hoyt]

8. Interesting comment in article cited -- mere presence of guns seem to make one behave aggressively.

That's exactly what we need -- a bunch of aggressive gun toters running around in public.

[TheWraith]

9. Wow. It's like literal tunnel vision.

You read that one phrase, and ignored the entire article around it which points out that that is a false assumption that no one has found evidence for over decades of study.

[Hoyt]

10. Did not read "one phrase" -- went to study mentioned in article. Finding is clear.

You guys need to look at things closer before jumping to rash decisions, especially when carrying a gun in public.

[TheWraith]

11. You saying a study supports gun control is as credible as a Republican endorsing tax cuts.

Hell, I'm sure you still believe the discredited claims that owning a gun makes you 293 times more likely to kill yourself or someone else.

[petronius]

12. You mean you read and uncritically accepted Anderson (1998), ignoring

Gallant and Eisen (2002), the essay linked in the OP, and the referenced court decision? What did you think of the criticisms and questions raised about the Anderson work by everything else in and linked in the Kopel essay?

[Hoyt]

14. I guess you will accept the opinion of some paid hack attorney who is obsessed with guns too.

[petronius]

16. The academic criticisms of the "weapons effect" research are compelling,

and seem to thoroughly undermine the hypothesis of "the trigger pulling the finger" in non-laboratory settings. You were quick to hang your hat on the Anderson result; did you have any thoughts or comments on the apparent flaws in the work?

[Hoyt]

17. Seen too many gunners' eyes light up when they touch those things to think effect is wrong.

Had a a few guns pulled on me by permitted gunners too. So I believe the "effect" exists. And, quite frankly, I think many gunners have issues that make them turn to a gun for some relief.

[petronius]

18. So, no comment on the actual research, then?

:shrug:

[Hoyt]

19. Comment: Studies you cite were by paid hacks with Independence Inst–Tom Tancredo was Chairman once

You have to be kidding me.

The "studies" from David Kopel's blog (link in OP)you seem to rely upon were "summarized" by a couple of paid hacks for the right wing Independence Institute which once had the bigoted, immigrant hating, right winger Tom Tancredo as Chairman of the Board. Do you really think that is objective?

[petronius]

21. I note that you are unable or unwilling to actually talk about what's there on the page

Why is that?

:shrug:

[Hoyt]

24. Because it's a friggin cherry-picked "summary" by non-PhD, paid hacks, likely hired by Tom Tancredo

or his, equally right wing, bigoted successor.

[petronius]

25. It's funny how earlier in the thread you were complaining that people don't

"look at things closer", and now here you are squirming like a hagfish to avoid looking at something at all... :shrug:

[friendly_iconoclast]

26. That's an insult to hagfish. *They* have a vital place in ocean ecology n/t

[oneshooter]

38. No more than you are. n/t

[ileus]

22. How much time did your agressive gunners pull for what they did?

[lawodevolution]

27. I bet nothing

Hoyt is probably either a mugger or a petty thief.

[spin]

31. That would explain his dislike of those who legally carry concealed...

I've been at the wrong end of a loaded firearm several times but once the person with the gun realized that I was not a criminal and had no evil intentions, the situation ended peacefully.

You tend to remember such instances for the rest of your life and it is amazing how big the muzzle of a gun looks when it is pointed at you.

But my experiences did not cause me to dislike firearms or their owners.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

37. ya think? because, I too, am wondering how he finds himself in these situations ...

he leads an interesting life for real.

[gejohnston]

42. I always had him as an international second story guy.

[spin]

29. You "had a few guns pulled on you by permitted gunners" ...

very interesting.

Just what did you do to get someone to pull a gun on you?

[cleanhippie]

35. 100% BULLSHIT!!!!!

"Had a a few guns pulled on me by permitted gunners too."


"I think many gunners have issues that make them turn to a gun for some relief."


"Seen too many gunners' eyes light up when they touch those things"


No, you have not. Prove it.





I think you are lying. I think you made it up.

[PavePusher]

39. Remember, this is from the person that yesterday implied....

that people who own modern rifles want to use them to shoot others in the back.

I doubt there's anything this poster won't stoop to.


Fortunately many of these threads are far more entertaining now that s/he's on "Ignore".

[Hoyt]

40. Nope, did not make it up. Don't care whether you believe me or not. Been around a lot of packers.

The gunners I've known may be nothing like you -- but you can't really believe that 90%, 95%, or 97% of packers are as safe/gunrighteous as you claim to be.

The more guys you persuade to pack, the more likely you'll be tapping into folks who clearly should not tote. But, you guys want to keep that pipeline to guns open so you can get another one.

[friendly_iconoclast]

41. I can't really believe the gun owners you've allegedly known are all that dangerous...

....as you have yet to provide any evidence one way or another that they even exist, or have done what you

claim they have done.


You are perfectly free to be the Zapp Brannigan of gun control, within the bounds of DU rules

And we are likewise perfectly free to treat your pronouncements with all the gravitas they deserve, also within

the bounds of DU rules....

[cleanhippie]

43. No, what I can't believe is the nonsense you post here.

Much of it fabricated out of whole cloth.

[Straw Man]

44. "Had a a few guns pulled on me by permitted gunners too."

I'm interested in the circumstances of these incidents. What were the causes of the confrontations? How did you know these people were permitted? How were the incidents resolved? Was law enforcement involved? If not, why not? Can you see any patterns or commonalities between the incidents, or were the circumstances completely different? Any information you'd be willing to share would be very valuable to the discussion.

[Hoyt]

45. I've posted it before, if you are that interested.

[Straw Man]

46. Please post it again.

All such incidents.

[gejohnston]

30. some are more than willing to

accept as gospel of hack economists who are paid by the Joyce Foundation who hate guns and ignore real science by criminologists and sociologists. Big on guilt by association?

[gejohnston]

32. Hack attorney who is a fellow Democrat and member of ACLU?

[spin]

33. Everybody knows that good Democrats and ACLU members can't be for RKBA ...

:sarcasm:

[Blown330]

34. Tunnel vision implies he actually saw...

....what was written.

[spin]

13. My experience and the experience of others that I know who legally carry concealed ...

is exactly the opposite.

Once I started to carry a concealed firearm I became far more polite than I had been before. I was never an aggressive or belligerent person but the fact that I was "packing heat" changed my attitude even further.

The last thing I would ever want to do is to shoot someone if it can be avoided. If some fool takes offense at something I said and tries to provoke a confrontation, I am willing to be tactful and end the situation peacefully. I am more than happy to walk away even if it makes me look like a coward.

I realize that if I do anything to escalated the argument into a fight and I use my concealed firearm I will face criminal charges. I also am aware that shooting another person may well cause me considerable psychological problems even if my actions are entirely justified.

I will only use my concealed weapon if there is absolutely no other choice and I, or someone I love, face imminent serious injury or death. I would be very hesitant to draw my firearm if a stranger faced danger unless I was absolutely certain of the situation. For example, if I witness an armed man chasing another individual, I have no idea if the he is an undercover cop.

If carrying a firearm caused people to become far more aggressive, you would have statistics to prove this. I know a number of people who carry concealed and all agree that they became far less aggressive once they started to carry.

Perhaps Robert Heinlein was correct when he said, "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."

[Hoyt]

15. There is nothing remotely polite about carrying a gun in public when 95% don't.

Just like there is noting polite about walking around in public with a machete or spear gun.

[Glassunion]

20. Probably closer to 89% who don't.

[Hoyt]

28. 89% is good.

[ileus]

23. Exactly...a permit brings a good citizen to near perfect status. Some would say too polite

a CCer will go out of his/her way to avoid conflict with anyone. You find yourself being overly friendly to your fellow citizens almost to the point of becoming a doormat. The service you do for society will never be known by most but the fact you're making America a better place is satisfaction enough.