Britain says it's OK to use a knife or poker to defend your home.

[Atypical Liberal]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-13957587

"Justice Secretary Ken Clarke has said a householder who knifes a burglar will not have committed a criminal offence under plans to clarify the law on self-defence in England.

He told the BBC people were entitled to use "whatever force necessary" to protect themselves and their homes.

...

Under the terms of the 2008 Criminal Justice and Immigration Act, homeowners who use "reasonable force" to protect themselves against intruders should not be prosecuted, providing they use no more force than is absolutely necessary.

...

But the government is set to place people's right to defend their property, long present in common law, in statute law.

"It's quite obvious that people are entitled to use whatever force is necessary to protect themselves and their homes," Mr Clarke said. We will make it quite clear you can hit the burglar with the poker if he's in the house and you have a perfect defence when you do so”

Asked about what this would mean in practice, he said: "If an old lady finds she's got an 18 year old burgling her house and she picks up a kitchen knife and sticks it in him she has not committed a criminal offence and we will make that clear."

He added: "We will make it quite clear you can hit the burglar with the poker if he's in the house and you have a perfect defence when you do so."

Well it's nice to see that Britain is at least somewhat coming to its senses and not penalizing people for defending themselves and their homes.

It's just a shame that the preferred method of defense is to engage in a physical contest of strength with your attacker. I guess for now UK subjects will have to settle for knives or fireplace pokers and hope they are stronger than whoever is assaulting them. At least old ladies can now go up against 18-year-olds with a kitchen knife and not worry about legal consequences.

[meegbear]

1. Jolly good!

[geckosfeet]

2. .... and if there are two or three burglars you are sol

[meow mix]

5. this is about the case where a gang of 4 men intruded.. and repelled by knife attack

1 of them died.

perhaps you meant when theres 5 or 6 =)

[eqfan592]

9. This guy beat the odds in a big way to say the least. nt

[TheWraith]

24. And for every time that works, there's probably several times where the homeowner gets stabbed.

A knife is not a good defensive weapon at ALL. Even a baseball bat is far superior.

Sad that Britain is just now finally acknowledging that people have a right to protect themselves, rather than arresting and charging people who've done so, like they did in the past. Hopefully this will lead to even greater reforms including some actual privacy rights.

[TheCowsCameHome]

3. I get their point.

[Kolesar]

4. The point is that Britain is codifying what had been implicit in common law

...and pretty far from your weaponized fantasy editorializing.

[one-eyed fat man]

17. Implicit in "common law?"

Seems that the Crown has also taken to prosecuting homeowners who used force against burglars.

You must agree with the dead burglar's familiy: "On the night he was killed, the teenager had just been released on bail after being accused of stealing garden furniture. Barras' grandmother, Mary Dolan, stated: "It's not fair that the farmer has got all the money and he is the one that took Fred away."

A British man and his 27-year-old son could be charged with murder after an altercation with four burglars lead to the stabbing death of one of the intruders.

"A British burglar called police when the victim in the home he broke into shot him with an air rifle. Police arrested the homeowner."

"Two residents of England were recently sentenced to prison for beating a burglar senseless with a cricket bat that broke in two as they defended their home from a thug who broke into their home and put the family living there at risk. The burglar got probation."

"A British celebrity, Myleene Klass, who is a popular broadcaster and model, brandished an "illegal" kitchen knife, and ran off a band of young intruders who entered her property last year. Police have told her that they believed she acted illegally in showing the knife to defend the home."

"And now, the estate of a slain armed robber is suing for damages stemming from the criminal’s being shot and killed during the commission of a potential high dollar armed robbery. "

[Kolesar]

21. That's an answer, fat man, but it has no bearing on my post

You need a hobby, a real hobby.

[one-eyed fat man]

26. Beats whining about boycotts.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=417619&mesg_id=417619

"If you don't want guns in your restaurant, just post a sign--THEN WE WILL BOYCOTT YOU

Watching you wheedle, whine and snivel is entertaining!

You need a new shirt...

[Kolesar]

30. What shitholes do you dine in? eom

[one-eyed fat man]

38. What a hoot!!!

Talk about cognitive dissonance!

You seem to claim gun owners are all crude, ill-mannered and impecunious rednecks without a sufficiently developed palate eat where you buss tables.

If your premise is correct, than a boycott of your fine dining space does not have unseemly consumers with guns as regular custom. In other words, they never spent money in your place anyway, so what are you pissing and moaning about customers you insist you never had anyway?

You just scream like a gut shot chipmunk when your paper thin skin and pissant ego are punctured. It sure don't take much, so much for truth in advertising with your tag line!

"People who are easily offended, or who are not accustomed to having their opinions (including deeply personal convictions) challenged may not feel entirely comfortable here. A thick skin is necessary to participate on this or any other discussion forum."

I guess if my livelihood depended on being openly obsequious to a wealthy elite who regard me as part of the "servant" class, I might be a mite testy when off shift too.

:rofl:

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[one-eyed fat man]

44. You get fired?

I did not say you owned a restaurant, I said you worked at one.

Perhaps I was in error in relying on your earlier statements intimating your employment at a high-end dining establishment as bearing some semblance to reality. (like there is a Michelin 3 star restaurant in Cleveland)

So concerning your claims, which of the following did you not say?

"My employer does not permit firearms. Why should employers of cooks and waiters have to put up with the threat of menacing or a shooting if they don't want to?"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=417619&mesg_id=417619

"Bring a gun into here and you get fired or a trip to the police station. My employer is proactive about preventing workplace violence."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&forum=118&topic_id=417619&mesg_id=417672

I'll admit to paraphrasing you a little. Instead of "crude, ill-mannered and impecunious rednecks" you really called gun owners "Mean, vengeful psychopaths with a dangerous attitude...eom" for having the temerity to not patronize restaurants whose policies they found disagreeable.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=417619&mesg_id=417634

[Kolesar]

45. RW gun-industry activists are "Mean, vengeful psychopaths with a dangerous attitude"

get it right

[eqfan592]

46. Well, I don't think there are many RW anything around this forum.

So I guess we don't have anything to worry about.

And for the record, your post that was linked didn't actually make any such distinction. But hey, nice try.

[Starboard Tack]

47. How can you boycott a place that doesn't want you anyway?

Sounds like a win-win situation

[one-eyed fat man]

49. Beats me.

Ask the guy who was whining that his workplace was going to be boycotted by gunowners if they put up a "No guns" sign.

The guy makes quite plain his aversion to guns and his disgust with those who own them.



I suppose he wants those "Mean, vengeful psychopaths with a dangerous attitude...eom" to stay home but mail in his tips.

[Kolesar]

50. On account of hygiene? eom

[friendly_iconoclast]

51. BUSTED- Turns out, your ire about boycotts is rather selective, as you promoted one here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=6302469

[one-eyed fat man]

53. When it was pointed out to him

that others had organized boycotts:

"You mean these guys?"

http://www.bradycampaign.org/media/press/view/1219/

His response indicates that of course THAT is entirely different and NOT the same thing at all!

"Trying to be cute, I see."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=417619&mesg_id=417661

[SteveW]

55. There were few gun laws in Britain before the 20th Century...

Then the laws came down, but not because of a crime wave. More like the government's fear of rising labor unrest and radical activism. We'll not have that rabble armed.

[davepc]

57. Don't forget the Irish

[GreenStormCloud]

6. Meanwhile, a group of UK doctors is trying to limit kitchen knives to two inches.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/4581871.stm

[Kolesar]

7. What is the point of lying in your subject line?

The article says no such thing.
Read it.

[eqfan592]

10. Google is your friend.

http://www.onmedica.com/newsArticle.aspx?id=ff721cc5-e4d9-4c7a-8f4d-581400379f98

"Dr. Hern and her colleagues at West Middlesex University Hospital in London personally spoke with British chefs and people in the catering business. They responded that "there is no need for people to have such long pointed knifes in their kitchen," Dr. Hern said. "All that is needed is a 2-inch long knife with a pointed blade. Otherwise everything can be done with a blunt-ended knife."

[MicaelS]

12. "No reason.... to be publicly available at all"

Wow, their Prohibitionists sound just like OUR Prohibitionists.

And they have political physicians over there just like here.

[GreenStormCloud]

13. From the article:

The researchers said there was no reason for long pointed knives to be publicly available at all.

They consulted 10 top chefs from around the UK, and found such knives have little practical value in the kitchen.

None of the chefs felt such knives were essential, since the point of a<[b> short blade was just as useful when a sharp end was needed.

The researchers said a short pointed knife may cause a substantial superficial wound if used in an assault - but is unlikely to penetrate to inner organs.

They are wanting a short knife that won't reach inside the body. I will grant that I was remembering the "two inches" from a different article. However, this article is clear that they want a short knife that can't reach far inside to vital organs. The intent is the same - to disarm the resident.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Straw Man]

27. How do you read it?

That the intent is to cut down on the appalling rise in kitchen-knife accidents? What a ludicrous misapprehension.

Do you live in Britain?

[GreenStormCloud]

14. There was a DU thread on the issue of kitchen knives in the UK:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5868542

The thread describes a safety knife that can't be used for stabbing.

[friendly_iconoclast]

42. Remember, empirical evidence that conflicts with faith will be denied or ignored:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x432275

[lawodevolution]

54. The UK is a fascist authoritarian heaven

Ban everything! Ban paper, you can cut someone with paper!

[SteveW]

56. Well, make the shank .010 inch wider, but place the guard well back. nt

[Remmah2]

8. Poker & knife combination.

Called a bayonet.

[spin]

11. If I move to Great Britain, I will get me an assault knife for home defense ...

Maybe something like this Bark River STS-8

[GreenStormCloud]

15. I would prefer a Cold Steel brand Natchez Bowie.

I also like having a crossguard.

[spin]

16. Looks like a good choice. (n/t)

[Blown330]

19. I prefer more tactical orientated knives.

Ka-Bar's Becker Combat Bowie



Fullsize D2 model

[Katya Mullethov]

34. The answer is still 42

V42


You can stuff all of these and more "down the front of your pants" now if you are a citizen of Hew Hampshire .
They have finally come to the conclusion that a weapon is a weapon , and I would have to agree .

[spin]

40. Florida issues a concealed weapons permit ...

so if you have one, you can carry a large knife concealed if you want.

[krispos42]

31. If you're fighting in the trenches, get a trench knife

That looks extremely effective. *winces*

[spin]

33. Actually I think a cutlass would work great ...

And I already have one.

Cold Steel 1917 Cutlass

In 1917, the U.S. Navy decided to replace its Model 1860 cutlass which had been in continuous service for 57 years, with a new model. Cold Steel’s® modern recreation of this classic fighting sword is as authentic as possible, it is virtually an exact copy of an original in the personal collection of Cold Steel President, Lynn C. Thompson. Our 1917 Cutlass features the signature 25" curved blade and a half basket guard that’s stamped out of heavy 18-guage high carbon steel, and both the blade and guard are blued to resist rusting. The handle is made from carefully shaped hardwood, painted brown and secured to the tang by three heavy brass cutler’s rivets.

The scabbard is an accurate reproduction of the original and is made of high quality leather and features brass and copper fixtures. It can be worn comfortably at the side on a pistol belt without chafing its owner.
http://www.coldsteel.com/1917cutlass2.html

Model 1917 Naval Cutlass
Regulation




The regulation cutlass (above) - a short saber with a cut and thrust blade and a large hand guard - "was issued to enlisted men as a sidearm and maintained in ships armories until the beginning of WWII. The weapons was officially declared obsolete in 1949. The Cutlass was considered an organizational issue item, but was never considered to be a part of the enlisted uniform."
On the regulation patterns, all metal furniture is "blued" similar to firearms; blade is slightly curved and single-edged with a 'clipped' point. The grips are of cross-hatch patterned wood, held in place by three copper rivets, all painted black.

***snip***

Cold Steel is now producing a high quality functional replica of the US M1917 Navy Cutlass. It is extremely well made - and very functional - perhaps better than the original; however, the hilt cup is more similar to the Dutch variant.
http://arms2armor.com/Swords/1917var1.htm

[oneshooter]

35. I would prefer a Ghurka Khukri. Slice and dice with a point! n/t

[spin]

36. Have you watched the Cold Steel video on their Gurkha Kukri ...

when they compare the damage a .357 magnum and a Gurkha Kukri can do to a block of meat?

It's at http://www.coldsteel.com/gurkhakukri.html

It's definitely one very nasty blade.

[oneshooter]

39. I have been looking at a Cold Steel Kukri for a while.

But mine is only 80yrs old and still holda a wicked sharp edge. From Nepal, hand forged with water buffalo horn grip.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[GreenStormCloud]

48. Now you have made me want one. Only about $160 on Amazon. N/T

[spin]

52. It is a very impressive weapon ...

I have a small collection of knives and swords and I the Cold Steel 1917 Cutlass would be a good addition.

I was impressed when it arrived. It's very well made and sharp and I got it from Amazon.com. It is merely a wall hanger but while I could display much cheaper weapons, I prefer functional swords.

It definitely would be a deadly weapon at close quarters as shown by this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-QpzW35f1I

If I buy another sword I'll probably look for a replica of the Roman Gladius.


http://www.sword-buyers-guide.com/roman-gladius.html

[ileus]

18. Good enough for the Brits good enough for US.

[Atypical Liberal]

22. It's not good enough for either.

It is unacceptable that their idea of self-defense is to force victims to engage in a physical contest of strength with their assailant.

They actually suggested that an "old lady" should take on an 18-year-old assailant with a knife.

Yeah, that's going to turn out real well for the victim.

[ileus]

23. You wouldn't want the innocent to have an unfair advantage or be equal. That's mean

[DonP]

25. Hillerich & Bradsby marketing opportunity?

Maybe the Louisville Slugger folks have an opening here? Cricket bats are made out of fairly soft willow for the most part IIRC. A good ash or hickory turned and fire hardened bat could be created with a Prince Harry autograph model for home defence.

Probably better than a poker or steak knife.

[one-eyed fat man]

28. There might be a racket there....

Hillerich and Bradsby has a great museum.



Everyone receives a miniature souvenir bat at the end of the tour!

The amnesty box at Standiford Field, the Louisville airport, is a huge Plexiglas case and it is filled with hundreds upon hundreds of those very same souvenir bats. I wonder if it part of a TSA recycling program?

[DonP]

32. Could have the whole royal family autograph series - collect them all

The Prince Charles model is basically useless, the Camilla is just an old fugly bat etc.

I've driven past a few times and always wanted to go on the tour. It really is one of those unique American icons.

[krispos42]

29. How generous of them

I suppose, of course, that if my knife is longer than X it's considered an "assault knife".

Does my knife have to reside in a childproof container, inspected randomly by the police? Does it have to be painted blaze-orange with reflective white stripe? How about a serial number? Registration?

Can my knife have a point and a sharp edge, too? That would be really generous of them to allow one or both of those. But my knife might not be allowed to have those things... only "reasonable" force, after all.

[DWC]

37. You can thank a bunch of well armed Colonials

about 237 years ago for the fact that we don't have to put up with that BS here in the USA. Armed defense has kept this country and its individual citizens safe ever since. "From my cold dead hands" is the anthem of a free people.

Semper Fi,

[friendly_iconoclast]

41. Coincidentally, India is coming around to our way of thinking:

INDIA: High Court (Madras) Rules Individual Citizens Cannot Be Denied Guns.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x432795


At the moment, I'm rocking one of these. A steel handle, so it will not break:




A melee weapon for the 21st Century- and yes, I *do* practice carefully in a friend's backyard.

Also handy for splitting kindling and trimming branches, of course.