Democrats seek crackdown on gun trafficking (Backlash)

[jpak]

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-atf-guns-20110701,0,7021610.story

Two congressional Democrats, fresh from a trip to Mexico City, plan to propose tighter restrictions on gun trafficking to combat illegal U.S. sales that they say may supply 80% of the arsenals of Mexican drug cartels.

"These reforms are essential to help law enforcement to stop guns from getting into the hands of the world's most dangerous criminals," Rep. Elijah E. Cummings (D-Md.) said Thursday at a congressional forum on gun trafficking.

Republicans edit - morans countered that the move was an effort by Democrats to distract attention from the problems of an undercover operation by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives that allowed 1,765 guns to be sold into Mexico. Republicans in Congress, led by California Rep. Darrell Issa edit - moran of Vista and Sen. Charles E. Grassley edit - moran of Iowa, are investigating the operation, known as Fast and Furious.

As part of Fast and Furious, ATF agents allowed straw purchases, in which a person buys guns on behalf of someone else who cannot legally buy them. The idea was to allow the purchases to go through in order to trace where the guns ended up, but agents appear to have lost track of a significant number of the weapons. Nearly 200 of the guns were used in crimes in Mexico, officials have determined, and two weapons were found in December at the scene of a U.S. Border Patrol agent's killing.

<more>

:bounce:

The GOP/NRA will vigorously oppose this

yup

[RSillsbee]

1. The GOP/NRA will vigorously oppose this

So , will I
YUP

[jpak]

2. So, you support gun running by Mexican Drug Cartels?

:shrug:

[Remmah2]

5. Only by the US Gubbermint.

yup

[damntexdem]

3. Well, we know who you lay down with, then.

So, try to aid and abet genocide in Mexico all you want.

[eqfan592]

6. Mmmm, that's some tasty hyperbole.... nt

[gejohnston]

27. Don't look at us, look in the mirror when you change your bong water.

[beevul]

44. Yet government facilitated genocide...

Yet government facilitated genocide in mexico seems not to get enough of your attention as to deserve so much as the smallest vague denouncement.


Why is that?

[Hangingon]

4. I will oppose passage.

[jpak]

7. So, you support gun running by Mexican Drug Cartels?

:shrug:

[eqfan592]

8. mmmm, even MORE tasty hyperbole!

"I wish to propose legislation that will require all parents to hand over their children to government facilities so that the parents are not able to kill their children."

"I oppose this legislation!"

"Ahh, so you support parents killing their children?" :shrug:

[jpak]

9. Well - how do you propose to stop the MASSIVE flow of illegal guns from the US to Mexico?

:shrug:

[Hangingon]

11. Your knowledge of this subject is really only Google deep.

The flow of guns from US gun stores is NOT massive and we have sufficient gun laws to stop gun running. Any "straw purchasers" should be apprehended and prosecuted.

[jpak]

12. LOL!!!1 tens of thousands of US guns have been recovered at crime scense by Mexican law enforcement

and the fact that thousands of F&F guns from US gun dealers ended up at Mexican crime scenes proves that it's a **hugh** problem.

The NRA/GOP cannot deny this

yup

[Hangingon]

14. Show us something that has not been totally discredited that

will prove your point.

[spin]

19. Can you present data to support your allegation? ...

It should show what percentage of the firearms recovered in Mexico came from American gun stores as opposed to the number that our nation supplied to the Mexican government that ended up in the drug cartels hands due to the corruption of government officials and the desertion of members of the Mexican army who took their weapons with them? Of course you should also show what percentage of the firearms were smuggled into Mexico from South American and other nations by the drug cartels.

It's easy for you to always present your views without any support. Take a little effort and post some facts and data and we can have a more productive and interesting discussion.

[jpak]

31. President Obama released it

yup

[spin]

32. What exactly did President Obama release? (n/t)

[jpak]

33. Mexican Guns Tied to U.S. - American-Sourced Weapons Account for 70% of Seized Firearms in Mexico

yup

[gejohnston]

34. That is not what the ATF said.

Most likely he is being lied to by Holder and the Mexican oligarchs that use us for a scapegoat.

[spin]

35. That statement has holes large enough to drive a 18 wheeler through ...

American-Sourced Weapons Account for 70% of Seized Firearms in Mexico
Evan Perez - WSJ.com June 10, 2011

***snip***

The ATF figures show that 21,313 firearms recovered in Mexico in 2009 were submitted for tracing by the agency. Of these, 10,945 were manufactured in the U.S. and 3,268 were imported into the U.S. from third countries before ending up in Mexico. The origin of 7,100 firearms couldn't be determined.

Of 7,971 firearms recovered in Mexico in 2010 and traced by ATF, 4,186 were manufactured in the U.S. and 2,105 were imported into the U.S. The origin of 1,680 firearms couldn't be determined.

Collectively, the data show that of the 29,284 firearms recovered in Mexico in 2009 and 2010 and submitted to the ATF for tracing, 20,504 or 70% passed through the U.S. at some point. The period is the most recent for which data are available.
http://pvnn.com/issues/10jun2011/american-sourced-weapons.htm

1) Mexico does not submit all the firearms they seize to the U.S., only the ones that they suspect come from the states.

2) The United States delivers firearms to the Mexican army and often these weapons end up in cartel hands due to corrupt officials and the fact that soldiers that desert the Mexican army to hire on with the cartels take their weapons with them. Through the years we have also supplied weapons to other South American countries and some of those weapons have been smuggled into Mexico.

Notice that the article DOES NOT state that the 70% came from U.S. gun stores. It says "Collectively, the data show that of the 29,284 firearms recovered in Mexico in 2009 and 2010 and submitted to the ATF for tracing, 20,504 or 70% passed through the U.S. at some point."

[one-eyed fat man]

24. What you keep denying is that the gun shops involved

Called the ATF over the suspicious buyers and were told TO MAKE THE SALE.

Again, so you will understand, the shops did not want to make the sales, they called the ATF because they felt the buyers were bogus, and the ATF told them to make the sale.

If you do not understand the gun shop would not have sold the guns if the ATF had not told them to. The Fast and Furious guns got there because the gun shops were ordered to make the sale, and the agents were ordered not to stop them

The gun shops cooperated with the ATF and as a result YOU are vilely and callously accusing them of selling to the cartels, while ignoring they did thinking they were cooperating with a legitimate law enforcement operation

[gejohnston]

29. But you said you support F and F.

You can not deny that. Brady/VPC/GOP also support it because they are opposed to the investigation. You can not deny that. Holder is no liberal, he is a corporate defense lawyer from one of the most conservative law firms that specialize in defending corporate criminals. You can not deny that.
Where do you get the tens of thousands of guns BS? Certainly not from any Latin American media, stratfor.com, BBC, or any other news source besides the Fox and free republic of the left.

[oneshooter]

36. He had to reach waaaaaay up his ass, but he found it! n/t

[Bold Lib]

45. Self delete - it's just not worth it with this one.

[SteveW]

21. Perhaps by stopping all firearms purchases by the Mexican military...

of course the Mexican government would probably go to other nations, leaving the dynamic of cartel gun acquisition essentially unchanged: "knocking over" Mexican military armories, corruption within said military, and direct armed attacks on said military. Further, the smuggling in of full-auto weapons, bombs, grenades, etc., will continue unabated over Mexico's southern border, and along its coast.

But we in the U.S. can at least say we have washed our hands of U.S.-made military-grade quipment going south. As for other over-the-border smuggling of guns, this will continue as long as their is a W.O.D. (supported by both domestic political parties), and an unregulated outlaw business of mammoth proportions and economic clout struggles for monopoly and dominance of the Mexican olitical system. BTW, when arms come from the U.S. over the border to Mexico, one cannot make the assumption they will all go to the "cartels." Some may very well be going to average citizens trying to defend themselves, but hamstrung by Mexico's "gun-control laws."

I find it ironic that we fight one prohibtion by trying to impose another.

[gejohnston]

28. They are not flowing from the US

The few that are going with your support. The vast majority are going through the southern border, China, Israel, Vietnam. Even factcheck.org blew that bullshit out of the water.

http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20110209-mexicos-gun-supply-and-90-percent-myth

[gejohnston]

30. here is how

First, hire and send the minutemen to hang out on Mexico's southern border to look at Guatemala. Second, send US war ships to patrol off of Mexico to keep illegal shipments from China, Israel, Korea, and Vietnam out. Third, tell Mexico's military to buy their stuff off the French.
Fourth, end the drug war or get all pot smokers to grow their own or buy from Canada. The RCMP gave up on British Colombia's pot fields. Can't buy guns from anywhere without money.
Since it does not involve hassling people like me, who contribute nothing to the problem but belong to your other, you will be against it.
Next question?

[Tejas]

43. umm, maybe take the "F" out of ATF?

If that had been done long ago, countless lives on both sides of the border could have been saved.

[Hangingon]

10. No I don't support gun running.

The current gun laws worked. Watch the hearings. ATF was skewered. That is the reason for the trip to Mexico and the proposed new law. To take the stink off the administration for this horrible ATF action which has caused lives. We do not need a new law. We need Federal agencies that enforce the current laws.

[jpak]

13. The ATF was "skewered" by GOP morans to stir up their moran "base"

yup

[Hangingon]

15. The ATF was skewered because they ran a faulty sting and

let a bunch of guns get away from them. The ATF action has resulted in several deaths. We need new legislation on ATF and faulty Federal gun enforcement - not new restrictions on law abiding citizens.

[spin]

20. The ATF was "skewered" because a border agent lost his life because of ATF incompetence ...

and many Mexicans were probably also shot and seriously injured or killed by the firearms that the ATF allowed to "walk."

What is sad about your position is that you are unable to admit that an agency of the government can seriously screw up.

Honestly, do you support the actions of the ATF in operation Fast and Furious?

Why is it that those who oppose gun ownership want to blame the fact that the fiasco came to light on the NRA and the GOP. CBS News broke the story not the NRA or the GOP. I don't believe CBS News is either an arm of the GOP or the NRA.

Agent: I was ordered to let U.S. guns into Mexico
March 3, 2011 6:10 PM

CBS News)

WASHINGTON - Federal agent John Dodson says what he was asked to do was beyond belief.

He was intentionally letting guns go to Mexico?

"Yes ma'am," Dodson told CBS News. "The agency was."

An Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms senior agent assigned to the Phoenix office in 2010, Dodson's job is to stop gun trafficking across the border. Instead, he says he was ordered to sit by and watch it happen.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/03/03/eveningnews/main20039031.shtml

Let me ask you another question, if this fiasco had happened under a Republican administration would you have the same viewpoint or would you have been outraged?

[ileus]

16. Can't wait for this to get shot down also.

[Blown330]

17. Yup...

...another piece of pearl-clutching legislation that will die in the face of facts and not lies and drummed up rhetoric.

[aikoaiko]

18. 80% ?? -- even you know that they are repeating a lie.

I feel so bad for you jpak. You have my sympathies.

[rrneck]

22. Democrats seek easy votes from oblivious voters. nt

[DWC]

23. This must be a joke

Just a weak smoke screen for the investigations into Fast and Furious / Gun Walker which has been described as "Watergate With Mass Murder". Hired, appointed, and elected heads will roll on this one as it should be.

Semper Fi,

[Tejas]

42. Well put! nt

[krispos42]

25. What, exactly, is "a new law on federal firearms trafficking"?

We can't be either for or against without some specifics. And neither can you.

[gejohnston]

26. along with anyone with an IQ over 50 or half way intellectually honest

So, you are saying that the ends justify the means, including dishonesty and having police violate the law? Yes that is what you are saying.

[Tejas]

37. Democrats seek crackdown on gun trafficking by ATF.

fixed.

[Abq_Sarah]

39. Oh, but it's okay if the ATF is in charge

Even though they had no way of tracking those weapons, they could jump up and down and scream about new gun laws once the firearms they allowed to be taken into Mexico are found at crime scenes.

[X_Digger]

40. The best 'connecting the dots' about that theory? The timing..

When did the ATF start this? Feb 2009, at the same time Holder was ratcheting up the wharrgarble re a new AWB, and SoS Clinton was babbling about MX to the same end.

[friendly_iconoclast]

38. Would you like us to pretend that we've never heard the term "direct commercial sales"?

Or that the Mexican government has a problem with firearms inventory control?

[ileus]

41. Why don't they enforce the laws we have with the people we have?

[Tejas]

46. "agents appear to have lost track of a significant number of the weapons"

A "significant number".



Like maybe a FEW THOUSAND there Sherlock?


I'm puzzled as to why Cummings has not questioned the 5th floor as to how in blue blazes the ATF planned on tracking the weapons after they crossed the border? The only answer I can come up with is 'they' never planned to track them, 'they' just wanted them in the cartl's hands at all costs.





Seriously, I do not view Cummings as a fool, what is he up to?????????

[friendly_iconoclast]

47. I suspect he wants to make sure that awkward questions like yours are not asked.

I may, of course, be wrong- I've grown more than a little cynical about politicians over the years....

[gejohnston]

48. I saw that explanation on Jon Stewart

they went to Radio Shack and bought tracking stuff and put them in the grips (that was the testimony) including using Radio Shack brand batteries, which Stewart noted, are not designed to last.

http://vodpod.com/watch/11524043-daily-show-fast-and-furious-atf-plan

[AzWorker]

49. Regarding electronic tracking...

"they went to Radio Shack and bought tracking stuff and put them in the grips (that was the testimony) including using Radio Shack brand batteries, which Stewart noted, are not designed to last"

That was one Agent experimenting on his own with one gun.....

There was no official policy of tracking the firearms in that manner.