What characteristics should "sporting" weapons have in common with "tactical" ones?

[krispos42]

And what characteristics between them should be distinctly different?

[rrneck]

1. None. Or all.

The bullets go in the bottom and out the front. Anything past that is aesthetics or ergonomics.

[petronius]

2. The tactical ones should be black. That's how you know they're tactical

Honestly, I've never understood the need to call anything "tactical" - the adjective doesn't seem to add any meaning, and has nothing to do with the definition of 'tactics', as far as I can tell. Why "tactical gear" when we can just say "gear"? :shrug:

[gejohnston]

4. what happened to OD green?

[petronius]

5. That's Classic Tactical

Kind of like new Coke versus old Coke...

[Hoyt]

33. "Tactical" -- marketing studies indicate it gets potential gun purchasers all excited.

[oneshooter]

37. Since you are quoting the studies, let us see them. If you can. n/t

[krispos42]

36. I think there is broad overlap between "tactical" and "sporting" characteristics...

...but not full overlap.


"Tactical" to me means optimized for combat, "sporting" means recreation.


Of course, there are subsets of each... the sniper rifle and the close-quarters combat rifle are both subsets of "tactical", yet have different emphasis on features. Likewise, the boar-hunting sporting rifle is different from a varmint rifle despite them both being "sporting guns".

The similarities also mean that a rifle designed for close-quarters combat would also make a pretty decent boar-hunting gun, and vice-versa. A short-barreled, adjustable-stock AR-15 with a red-dot scope and a flashlight, finished in matte black, would do pretty well for boar hunting, and a lever-action wood-stocked Marlin with iron sights would do nicely for keeping an intruder from harming your family.

[AtheistCrusader]

43. For hogs, I recommend the biggest multi-barreled death ray you can get.

Only because nukes are too big.

[Glassunion]

45. I'm black... Does that make me "tactical"? Actually, I'm only 1/2 black.

Does that make me "California Legal"?

[gejohnston]

3. how about this

This I can work with



This, just is

[Big_Mike]

6. I just LOVE Kalashnakitty! NT

[friendly_iconoclast]

7. Me, too, but putting her on an AR is just....wrong.

Spongebob would be cool, though-

"Who lives on a gun range under the sea?......"

[krispos42]

14. Okay, now that's funny

:rofl:

[saras]

8. The obvious difference is whether they're intended to kill people or not - nothing complicated there

Tactical weapons should do what's necessary, and be under the control of responsible organizations (militias, militarys) with the power to enforce compliance in practice, not merely in law, to their regulations.

Sporting weapons have no need of features focused on human targets, and shouldn't risk crossing that line for the sake of sport.

An already existing example is the sawed-off shotgun versus the ordinary shotgun. Both kill people quite effectively, but the shotgun kills people as a byproduct of being useful for certain kinds of hunting. The sawed-off shotgun has little or no purpose but to kill people (though I suppose it could be used by an extraordinarily suicidal bear hunter), and is, therefore, quite reasonably banned.

Just keep extending the problem until cheap disposable kill-people-at-close-range-only guns, and other guns primarily associated with crime, are largely illegal, and most sporting weapons are clearly identified with a particular form of sport shooting.

Basically, if responsible gun owners would develop a zero-tolerance attitude towards flaming dipshits with guns, instead of defending them nearly all the time, the rest of us could keep out of it. But I think that ordinary people have a right to go through an ordinary life without encountering the threat of a gun, period. This is why many find it offensive to have armed soldiers and guards parading around in society, and why many law-abiding citizens are uncomfortable with police, even though recognizing their necessity. I'd just as soon encounter dead bodies on a regular basis as encounter people packing guns.

[Travis_0004]

9. So civillains should not have tactical guns?

Short Shotguns are used by military's, because they excel at close quarters combat. Why shouldn't a civilian be allowed to own one if they need it to defend the house from a robber?

I also own an AR-15. I have a red dot sight on it. I have entered competitions with it, and most people there always have AR-15's, because it excels at that shooting sport. So I would argue that the AR-15 is a sport gun. Show up at a 3 gun match, and count how many people have AR-15's. I bet its more than 50%.

Also, why do you have a problem with cheap guns. Are you saying that the right to defend yourself should only belong to those who have money? I own a 500.00 handgun, and have put a 100.00 light on it. I am well armed if somebody broke into my house. I am fortanute enough to have enough disposable income to afford nice things. Shouldn't somebody who makes much less money be able to defend themselves as well, since they probably can not afford a 500.00 gun. Maybe a 150.00 gun is all they can afford. Plus, they are more likely to live in an area with higher crime, so they may need to defend themselves more than me.

The problem we have is criminals will be criminals, honest people will be honest. If criminals always break the millions of laws we have, what makes people think one more will stop them? The only thing more gun laws do is give criminals the upper hand, as civilians are disarmed.

[oneshooter]

12. ???

"I'd just as soon encounter dead bodies on a regular basis as encounter people packing guns."

Does that include the bodies of family and friends? Those who would be denied a longer life due to your preferences? You would deny them the choice of a efficient means of their own defense?

No thank you.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[rrneck]

13. What is the difference

between killing a two hundred pound man and a two hundred pound deer?

Shotgun barrel length is already regulated.

What specific differences between "sporting arms" and "tactical arms" make them better suited for each task?

What makes stalking and killing an animal not "tactical"?

What makes defending oneself in one's home any less "tactical" than engaging an aggressor on the battlefield?

It's not illegal to be a "flaming dipshit". When you establish causation between flaming dipshitness and crime, you might have something more than opinion to work with. As it stands, environmental aesthetics and personal preference aren't enough to restrict the civil rights of others.

[slackmaster]

16. All of the obsolete, curio and relic firearms in my collection were intended to kill people

As were the "sporting" firearms that were derived from their designs.

The sawed-off shotgun has little or no purpose but to kill people (though I suppose it could be used by an extraordinarily suicidal bear hunter), and is, therefore, quite reasonably banned.

Short-barrelled shotguns are not banned. You should read up on the subject.

I'd just as soon encounter dead bodies on a regular basis as encounter people packing guns.

I think your priorities are messed up.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

17. What is needed...

...is a zero-tolerance attitude towards those who enable citizens among us to slip through what are systematically reasonable safeguards. We have (or should have) laws that stop those like Cho (Va Tech) to buy firearms and ammo.

This country was initially established by the Declaration of Independence. Acknowledgments therein publish to humanity the most fundamental of rights, the right to life. In equal and accompanying words is found the right to liberty. Nothing in our Constitution does nor should compromise of these fundamentals. A careful read through the words of wise leaders going back thousands of years only serves to reinforce these ideals.

...I think that ordinary people have a right to go through an ordinary life without encountering the threat of a gun...I'd just as soon encounter dead bodies on a regular basis as encounter people packing guns.

"...nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance." - Franklin D. Roosevelt
"Now, we must all fear evil men. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men." - The Monsignor.
"Look not back in anger, nor forward in fear, but around you in awareness." - Ross Hersey

We have today on the public dole judges, legislators and officials who, deliberately or through negligence, have allowed instances of violence from Cho and those like him to continue. How can anyone be okay with this lack of accountability?

A new law is not the answer. The law and those charged with its adjudication and enforcement are the problem.

Grow up.

[spin]

21. Should I be allowed to own a 12 gauge coach gun? ...

It could be used for hunting but it is primarily designed as a defensive weapon. The short barrels mean that the weapon is far easier to handle in a house than a full sized shotgun.

Stoeger Coach Gun
This shotgun is just as effective and as good a choice for today’s homeowner as it was as a protector of 19th century stagecoaches.
1/12/2011

In today’s firearms market the buzz word is “tactical.” Everything is tactical, from guns to optics, to underwear. There are even tactical pens—writing instruments that double as weapons. Chalk it up to modern marketing: If it “ain’t” tactical, you won’t survive! Well, maybe… Developments within the tactical arena can be mind boggling and complex. To a certain extent I have succumbed to some of the complex gear solutions. But let’s face it, a home invasion by a dozen bad guys remains relatively rare. Equally true is that many families have members who are not gunnies and have little or no formal training. They do not need or know how to use a sophisticated semi-auto shotgun equipped with ghost-ring sights, lights, lasers and a door-breaching tube. These folks are better off with a simple, short-barreled side-by-side shotgun—like the Stoeger Coach Gun.

At 6 1/2 pounds with a pair of 20-inch barrels, the Stoeger Coach Gun is a simple, effective tool for home defense. The barrels are short enough for quick handling and its basic break-open design allows it to be used by virtually anyone. The twin muzzles are an imposing statement to any would-be home invader. Available with 3-inch chambers in 12 and 20 gauge, as well as .410 bore, any unfortunate soul that chooses to challenge this shotgun’s owner will pay a hefty price.

***snip***

Coach guns derive their name from use by guards on stagecoaches during the latter part of the 19th century. They served a need at the time for an effective arm that was fast handling and easy to load from a bumpy, rolling stagecoach. Those same characteristics make it an excellent choice as a home-defense shotgun in the 21st century. The Stoeger Coach Gun may not have the “mule ears” and ambiance of the old Wells Fargo shotguns, but it’s a lot faster to manipulate and handle—something critically important for a home-defense shot gun.
http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/stoeger-coach-gun/

[PavePusher]

22. You really haven't defined any of your terms.

"Sporting weapons have no need of features focused on human targets, and shouldn't risk crossing that line for the sake of sport."

What features are those, and what makes them unique to "human targets" and not to sporting purposes"


"cheap disposable kill-people-at-close-range-only guns, and other guns primarily associated with crime"

What guns are those, what features do they have that make them distinct from guns not "primarily associated with crime"?


"flaming dipshits with guns"

Who are you talking about, and who is defending them?



"a right to go through an ordinary life without encountering the threat of a gun, period."

Hmmm, cite to that, please?



"I'd just as soon encounter dead bodies on a regular basis as encounter people packing guns."

Wow. I sure hope I'm interpreting that wrong, because it comes across as you would happily rather let people be murdered in public than for them to have tools that could enable them to defend themselves succesfully. If that's not what you meant, you really need to clarify it for us. Thanks.





Please tell us which of the following models is or is not "tactical" or suitable for hunting, or for self-defense and why:

http://www.remington.com/product-families/firearms/centerfire-families/bolt-action-model-seven.aspx

http://www.remington.com/product-families/firearms/centerfire-families/bolt-action-model-700.aspx

http://www.remington.com/product-families/firearms/centerfire-families/bolt-action-model-770.aspx

http://www.remington.com/product-families/firearms/centerfire-families/pump-action-model-7600.aspx

http://www.remington.com/product-families/firearms/centerfire-families/autoloading-model-750.aspx

http://www.remington.com/product-families/firearms/centerfire-families/autoloading-model-r-25.aspx


Next, please explain what part of the Second Amendment restricts personal arms to "hunting" weapons, and why.

I have asked these questions here many times and never had an answer.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

23. I inferred...

...this same meaning:

...because it comes across as you would happily rather let people be murdered in public than for them to have tools that could enable them to defend themselves successfully.

...that you did.

What a lame, gutless and distasteful attitude.

[PavePusher]

24. I'm hoping for a better translation before I render a verdict.

I've once or twice typed something that read exactly at odds to what I was trying to say... and had to post corrections/remediations/apologies for it.

Only once or twice, mind you.... :evilfrown:

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

28. Many times we learn best and most when we teach.

But it's always vital to realize that yesterday's teaching doesn't always agree with what I will learn today. I'll stop learning once I grow too proud to admit a mistake and apologize.

You are very wise. :)

I thinking Hoyt meant "...aren't..." http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=433053&mesg_id=433349
;)

[gejohnston]

26. If you take US v Miller to its logical extension,

tactical is constitutionally protected more than sporting. The court ruled that being convicted of having an unregistered sawed off shotgun did not violate the 2A because it is a gangster weapon with no military use.

[AtheistCrusader]

44. Would have been good if Miller had shown up and argued his case.

Such short barreled weapons were in use by various militaries around the world at the time.

But he didn't appear, and didn't present a defense, so the SC didn't receive any evidence of such.
The SC won't do original research of it's own. Both sides of the case need to present all relevant evidence for them.

[one-eyed fat man]

27. When were guns not tactical?"

The first illustration of a piece of ordnance occurs in a treatise by one Walter de Millemete entitled De Officiis Regum (On the Duties of Kings). Dated 1326, it is preserved in the library of Christ Church, Oxford. The gun was called a vaso from the Italian for a vase which it closely resembled. The Gunner is pictured in the act of firing the piece by inserting a red-hot iron into the vent. The projectile leaving the muzzle was a species of arrow known as a dart, carreau or quarrel. The gun has no carriage; it simply lies on a trestle table.

The earliest known reliable reference to guns occurs in a decree of 11 Feb 1326 by the Council of Florence ordering the casting of a quantity of brass pieces and iron shot. Guns were probably in use before 1326 but claims to that effect as yet lack supporting evidence.

That makes it pretty certain that people have been using guns to kill each other for something over SIX HUNDRED AND EIGHTY-FIVE YEARS!

Every technical advance in firearms was either the result of improvements made to military arms and subsequently adopted by civilian users, or in other cases, refinements made in civilian arms were adopted to military use.

Rifling was used to impart greater accuracy in civilian hunting arms over two centuries before it's use became widespread in military arms. Because smooth-bore muskets could be loaded more quickly than rifles, muskets remained the primary arm of the world's armies until the advent of the Minie ball on the eve of the American Civil War. The 1898 Mauser is considered by many to be the pinnacle of military bolt action rifles. The Winchester Model 70 is virtually a direct knock-off of Paul Mauser's design in every important aspect. It and it's copies are still in production.

Anyone with the technical acumen of a turnip and can readily trace the evolution of small arms through the past seven centuries and see that civilians and military shooters alike exchanged ideas and technologies as it suited their purposes.

Now, the weapons stored in a military unit's arms room might, by definition, be intended primarily to kill people. That is only because the role of the infantryman is to close with the enemy and destroy him by means of fire and maneuver in close combat.

Of course, in Genesis 4:8, Cain used a mere rock to do the same to Abel. No doubt rocks were not intended to be tactical, but murderer's are not likely inclined to make such asinine distinctions. They do fit your other arbitrary artifice, they are "cheap and throw away."

Historically, criminals have actually favored the same arms the police use. A generation ago it was a Smith & Wesson or Colt .38 revolver. Now it the Glock .40.

You need to look no further than "gangta rap" for corroboration. Wu-tang Clan's The Glock lyrics make it pretty plain. You do not find any paeans to Lorin's, Jennings, RG's or any of the mythical "Saturday Night Specials."

Saturday Night Special

A slang term for an inexpensive, small-caliber revolver. Dave Kopel, Research Director at the Independence Institute, explains:

The “Saturday night special” is in part a linguistic descendant of the racist phrase "Niggertown Saturday Night." The obvious implication of the phrase "Saturday night special" is that it is a gun used by "niggers" to shoot each other with during their wild Saturday nights. No one denies that the people disarmed by a "Saturday night special" ban would be predominantly poor and non-white.

You plainly state that so-called "Saturday Night Specials" are preferred by the lower classes, therefore they must be dangerous. You intimate that the working poor are not deserving of self-defense they can afford. Obviously you believe if someone has a life worth defending they would a security detail assigned to them at taxpayer's expense! Alternatively, they would be wealthy enough to hire bodyguards. Certainly a person of your vast moral superiority occupies your lofty station because you can afford to hire your killing done.

[krispos42]

30. Can you be more specific?

I mean, obviously, bolt-action .308 rifle isn't ideal to defend against an intruder in your home, regardless of whether it's a walnut-stocked hunting rifle with a $200 telescopic sight, or a flat-black police sniper rifle with a pistol grip, bipod, and $1,200 mil-dot night-vision scope with built-in laser rangefinder.

So something more defined is needed.

[Howzit]

32. So inaccurate guns should be banned because they can only be used at short ranges, but

sniper rifles are OK? If sniper rifles are not OK, then you should compare them to the common hunting rifle and then update your opinion.

It is intent and motivation that kill - gun type has no bearing on these.

[PavePusher]

41. So, any clarification yet? n/t

[PavePusher]

42. Hello? HELLO? ....... n/t

[Katya Mullethov]

10. Does not fit anything . Apparently you've handed me a Whitworth spanner

I cannot not validate the sporting clause construct . Heads they win , tails you lose . I'd rather skin my own dick than go hat in hand and "present my case" for the "Working Group" to recognize my sport . See it done here . Pleading , not dick skinning http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65aR1Vj18GY



It would be important to note that like many of the records that WERE* at some point part of the NFA registry , many of the comments sent to the working group in regards to their tireless effort to revisit the SCC were summarily discarded , or as is the custom with Treasury spinoffs..... "lost" . I know of at least a half dozen myself , and they were neither the pleadings of Fudds nor offers of fellatio .


* Vince Cefalu recently brought this very old "anomaly" to the forefront .
http://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en#sclient=psy&hl=en&site=webhp&source=hp&q=%22institutional+perjury%22&aq=&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=16cccdb0d536ba00&biw=1667&bih=847

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bold Lib]

15. The 2A says nothing about "sporting purpose". In fact, in the Heller

decision the M-16 (a real full auto assault rifle) was specifically cited as being particularly suited to militia duty.

[DissedByBush]

18. Man is an animal

Thus the two are the same.

[slackmaster]

19. That's an interesting take on the issue

Thank you for articulating it.

[DissedByBush]

38. You do have to change your equipment

One set of equipment is good for rabbits, one for bear, one for ducks, and another for humans.

There is a lot of overlap though.

Hitting a mule deer or a human at 1,000 yards takes exactly the same equipment.

Only when it's sold for hunting humans it'll be called "tactical."

[spin]

20. Firearms are often used for self defense ...

and legitimate self defense is a valid use.

For example, I legally carry a S&W Model 642 .38 special snub nosed revolver. It's not a target or hunting weapon. It is designed as a defensive weapon.



When I decide to do some informal target shooting at 25 yards I may decide to bring my S&W Model 686PP .38/.357 mag which is an excellent target weapon but loaded with the right ammunition is also a very effective weapon for hunting or for home defense.



For home defense I also have a Stoeger 12 gauge coach gun. This firearm is often used during Cowboy Action Shooting events, a rapidly growing sport.



One firearm those who love draconian gun control hate is the AR15. It is an excellent self defense rifle especially for those in rural areas yet it is a very popular rifle for varmit hunting.

AR-15 Rifle For Varmints
Today, one of the most popular firearms in the marketplace is the AR-15 type rifle, or variations that have been built directly from this basic rifle design. The AR-15 rifle has more added features than any other firearm built today, or for that matter any time in shooting sports history. This rifle is the toy shop of big boy toys all rolled up into a very tight package. Hunters who want special optics such as lasers or night light systems need only open one of many different catalogs to find just the thing they have been searching for.


This AR-15 is good to go with an A.C.O.G. sight and a heads up display over the top. Also battle sights for backup use. This rifle is a good example of a complete varmint rig for closer range calling work. However, glass sights are required for open country, long-range coyote hunting, in the author’s opinion.
http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/varmint-hunting-ar-15-1.php

And of course AR style rifles are becoming a favorite of deer hunters.

There was a time when AR-15-style rifles were a rare sight in a hunting camp, but that’s all in the past. Today they represent the best-selling rifle category in the commercial firearm business. They are the darling of many shooters, and they have made huge strides with hunters, too. That a company as prominent as Remington supports those trends with two new rifles, the R-15 and the R-25, demonstrates that hunting with AR-style rifles is becoming more and more popular. In fact, just about every manufacturer of AR-style rifles currently catalogs a hunting model or two.

The guns are accepted in hunting camps around the country. Recently, I have encountered quite a bit of genuine interest in the firearms, and several fellow hunters told me they planned on buying an AR-type rifle in the near future. My guess is they will be quite happy with that decision. These rifles are reliable; after all, we equip our troops with the selective-fire, military versions. They also can be extremely accurate, as they prove again and again in various shooting competitions throughout the world. Once hunters get past the cosmetics and mistruths surrounding the guns, they discover that AR-style rifles are wonderful firearms for hunting.

There are two basic rifle sizes here. One is the “AR-15,” a name trademarked by Colt long ago and now generally used to describe rifles designed around the .223 Remington/5.56x45 mm NATO cartridges and limited to cartridges of similar length. The larger rifles are often called the “AR-10 type.” That name, owned by ArmaLite, is used generically here to describe a larger rifle that accepts .308 Win.-length cartridges.
http://www.nraila.org/Issues/Articles/Read.aspx?id=402&issue=019

Model R-25™ Rifle

Overview:

Remington brought the hunting-rifle prowess, and a leading manufacturer of modular repeating rifles introduced us to the 308 Win platform. What emerged is a masterwork of game-dropping performance and hunt-specific features that will load any camp’s meat pole with unrivaled efficiency – the new Model R-25. An advanced, highly lethal blend of accuracy, fast followups and light recoil chambered for three of today’s most popular short-action hunting cartridges – 243 Win, 7mm-08 Remington and 308 Win. This rifle is everything varmint and predator hunters love about our R-15 in a beefed-up design that easily handles cartridges suitable for big-game hunting.
http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/centerfire/model-r-25/model-r-25-rifle.aspx

Remington R-25

[east texas lib]

25. I'd say the only difference that really matters is select fire capability...

Everything else is cosmetic. Just my two cents.

[beevul]

29. The word "sporting" when applied to firearms, is ENTIRELY subjective.

The word "sporting" when applied to firearms, is ENTIRELY subjective.


As is the word TACTICAL.



Thats why the antis have so much fun with it.

[krispos42]

35. Surely you don't mean that arbitrary definitions would be abused...

...do you?

*gasp*


;-)

[Howzit]

31. Same: Bullets should come out of the front end

Different: There is no difference unless the shooter is motivated to aim at a different type of target.

[Taitertots]

34. Should be Highly regulated: Fully automatic, select fire, silencers, SBRs, SBSs, exploding rounds

Shouldn't be highly regulated: Everything else

Good thing the laws are already set up that way. And it has the support of the vast majority gun owners and the NRA.

[PavePusher]

39. Why should safety devices (suppressors, -NOT- silencers), be "highly regulated"?

Seeing as how the double the length of hand-guns, and add 6-18 inches to the length of long-guns, and merely reduce, not eliminate, noise, by what pratical measure are they a problem in crime?

[gejohnston]

40. good point, I know they are unregulated in some countries

like France, Norway, Finland, and New Zealand. I was reading an article some time ago that mentioned that suppressors are common on French target ranges and that some hunting areas in Finland and Norway require their use because of noise pollution.