Women help fuel demand for concealed gun permits (Michigan)

[shadowrider]

Companies are making holsters designed for bras and skirts, and pistols small enough to go unnoticed. And where you live has a lot to do with how many might be in use.

About one in six concealed weapon holders in Michigan is a woman, according to state police records kept since a new law 10 years ago made it easier to carry concealed guns.

But just as a Booth Michigan analysis found there are wide differences among counties in the number of license holders per capita, so too are there disparities among the sexes.

In Wayne County, 22 percent of licensing actions involved women, the vast majority of those approvals. Barry County came in second at 19 percent

Ottawa and Presque Isle counties were at the opposite extreme, where just 11 percent of permit holders were likely to be women. The state average is 17 percent.

Wherever they are, the women’s reasons for wanting concealed weapons are similar.

http://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/2011/06/women_help_fuel_demand_for_con.html

[east texas lib]

1. I say more power to them...

Some comments from the article:

“I think we all need a gun for personal and home protection, just because of the way the world is today,” said Sherri Zandbergen, of Ottawa County’s Robinson Township. The legal receptionist owns a Glock 9 mm and received her concealed license permit in May.
“If I needed to, I could use it to shoot an intruder or someone attacking me. I just hope I don’t have to,” she said.

Pam Kittredge got her license from the same gun board that day. She owns a Ruger LCP, a small, light handgun that weighs about 10 ounces.
“This economy is going to get a lot worse before it gets better. I can see bread selling for $10 a loaf and people out of work breaking into houses for food,” said Kittredge, of Nunica, who works as a satellite system salesperson.
“I’ll tell you, I’m not going to let anybody come in my house and take everything that I’ve worked so hard for.”

Most women would not have thought to carry a gun even five years ago, said Andrea Durhal. When she became a National Rifle Association certified instructor eight years ago, her classes were mostly men. Recently, women have started to fill her classes.
It took a few years for women to get over a fear of guns and take responsibility for their protection, she said.
“We’re being victimized; we’re being raped. The crimes are getting higher and the police departments are less and less,” she said. “People are realizing now that they need to be their own security.”


Sounds like they've taken the initiative in protecting themselves. As it should be. K&R!

[friendly_iconoclast]

2. K&R, indeed n/t

[spin]

3. I fully support women getting carry permits ...

My daughter has one.

A little over a year ago she attracted the attention of a stalker. A restraining order did no good initially as this cockroach who loves to terrify women repeatedly violated the order. She had her carry permit and would have shot the stalker if he had ever physically attempted to attack her. Fortunately for all involved, he didn't.

Eventually, about a year later, the stalker pushed a little too far and there were plenty of witnesses, including me, that witnessed the violation. He spend several weekends in jail and was warned that he might spend a year in prison if he persisted in stalking my daughter again. He has stopped his activity so apparently he learned a valuable lesson.

My daughter had done absolutely nothing to attract the attentions of this fool. He was also stalking one of my daughter's friends who was often out of the country running a business. Perhaps that is why he started bothering my daughter.

The fact that she already had her concealed weapons permit when the stalking started was important as obtaining a carry permit can take as long as three months in Florida after you have your training and have submitted the forms. The stalker was much larger than my daughter who is 5' 2" and weighs slightly over 100 pounds on a good day. He supposedly had a long record of arrests for being intoxicated and had resisted arrest with violence.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

4. k&r

[rhett o rick]

5. Guns, guns, and more guns. We wont be safe until everyone has guns. nm

[eqfan592]

6. You can always tell which side of an argument is not based in reality..

...by the amount of BS hyperbole they spew....

[rhett o rick]

8. I totally agree. nm

[spin]

23. True, when your argument is lacking, you can always try emotion and hyperbole ...

That's why encountering a valid argument for passing draconian gun control or bans on firearms is so rarely seen in this forum.

The truly unique and interesting fact is that it wouldn't be unusual to rarely see a good argument for strong gun control on a very conservative forum, but you should see some on a very liberal and progressive forum such as DU which is populated by some very intelligent posters.

Of course, I believe that the Second Amendment is extremely liberal and progressive as is the First Amendment.

The Founding Fathers were not conservatives but were very liberal and progressive. Had they been conservatives we would still be paying allegiance to the King.

[WatsonT]

9. You beat that strawman sure, but I think it's important to realize that no one

has every claimed everyone should have a gun.

But if you really think not having guns makes us safe I suggest you look back on human history and tell me if the period prior to the advent of gunpowder was a safe time for H. sapiens.

[GreenStormCloud]

7. My wife has hers. Carries a Kel-Tec P3AT. N/T

[oneshooter]

10. Loving Wife prefers her Colt LW Commander in 45cal. n/t

[Hoyt]

11. Most likely to defend themselves against macho men who carry guns, have closet full, love them, etc,

[eqfan592]

12. lol, not likely.

Unless you have some stat you can point to that shows most criminals (or even a significant percentage) have a "closet full" of guns, then you're pretty much full of it. But then again, that's the norm with you.

[rl6214]

21. LOL, I posted nearly the exact same thing then read your post

[gejohnston]

13. no, most likely some misogynistic asshole that

likes violence towards women, but I would not describe that as manly or macho.

[rl6214]

20. Cite to proof or

are you just spewing the BS you are well known for?

[X_Digger]

14. A couple of months ago, I gave an impromptu class over the weekend..

There was only one student- a friend of my wife's who is going through a nasty divorce.

They each had/have restraining orders out on the other, and she was sporting a bruised collarbone from a shoving match.

She'd never been around guns, had never shot one. By Sunday, she was shooting her new glock with confidence.

[HockeyMom]

15. So how would a gun have helped this wife?

http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2011/jul/07/man-accused-killing-wife-hospital-had-talked-about/

Remember, she was not in her home, but in a hospital visiting someone. She would have had to not only been carrying, but would have had to have been a very quick draw when she was surprised to see her husband in that hospital room point a gun at her. Fortunately, he didn't try to shoot anybody else. My husband is at that hospital today on the same floor. The hospital staff were talking about this. NONE of them (near all women) had guns in that hospital at their work stations. There are also no security measures in place. No, my husband didn't take HIS gun to the hospital with him.

REAL life situations just don't fit into nice neat NRA scenarios. Of course, you won't be hearing the NRA talk about these shootings.

[X_Digger]

16. How does being unarmed help this woman?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/17/AR2006081701483.html

When police arrived, Deborah Martin told them she didn't know if she'd been punched two or three times -- or two or three hundred. From the looks of the photos taken a few hours later, it was probably closer to the latter.

The situation with my wife's friend is real enough for her. Nothing is 'neat' when it comes to life. Smarmy holier-than-thou-ism doesn't cut it.

Oh hey, did you go buy that gun from wal-mart 'with no questions asked' yet?


eta: on the other hand..

http://jacksonville.com/news/georgia/2009-02-05/story/woman_who_shot_husband_acquitted


Woman who shot husband acquitted

"He beat her to pieces, just black and blue," Thigpen told the Times-Union after the verdict. "He beat her like she was a borrowed mule. She acted in self-defense, and it was justifiable homicide."

McKinney, a retired school bus driver, testified she shot her husband after he repeatedly hit her in the head with a broomstick in an attack that began when he started cursing and verbally abusing her. After beating her, he left the house and she locked him out. Mc-Kinney told jurors she warned him that if he returned, she would kill him.

She said he came back and smashed in a window with a bicycle in an effort to force his way into the home.

Or this one..

LaCenter, Washington -- A LaCenter-area man was shot to death Sunday night by his wife after he broke down a bedroom door in an attempt to continue beating her, Clark County sheriff's detectives said.

Craig R. Swenson, 59, died at the scene from a gunshot to his chest, Detective Pat St. John said Monday.

He said Swenson had physically assaulted his wife, Cheryl, 55, and she had run into the master bedroom of their home in the 1400 block of Northeast 389th Street and locked the door.

Swenson broke down the door and was advancing on his wife, threatening to continue the beating, when she fired a shot from a .357-caliber Magnum handgun, St. John said.

or..

http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/news-good-bad-ugly/53255-neutral-woman-shoots-husband-self-defense-el-dorado-ar.html

EL DORADO, Ark. (AP) - A woman shot and killed her husband at their home outside of El Dorado, and the Union County sheriff says the slaying was in self-defense.

Sheriff Ken Jones said the incident happened around 10:30 p.m. Saturday, when deputies found 47 year-old Roger Gates dead inside the home. Jones says 37 year-old Kimberly Gates told him that her husband had attacked her and that she was afraid for her life and her baby's. Officials say she was able to get away from her husband, get a gun from the bathroom, and shoot him.

[friendly_iconoclast]

17. A tragedy, to be sure. I note that you claim that her carrying a gun wouldn't have helped.

You are also the person that claimed someone could buy a gun at WalMart, "no questions asked".

There have been several cases posted here recently about persons firing back at armed assailants.

I will be charitable and assume that have not read them.

No one here, and certainly not the NRA, claims that guns are magic talismans, proof against all evil.

I'd also note that 'anecdote' != 'statistics'.

[petronius]

18. If/when someone posts a situation where a legally carried firearm did save a life,

would you take that as proof that a gun will always help? The story you cite is horribly sad, but it's merely one real-life situation - it doesn't obviate the utility of a gun in other circumstances.

Firearms are simply one tool for self-defense: in some cases, having a gun won't help at all; in other cases, it can save a life. Those who choose to exercise their right to carry wish to be prepared to have that chance in the latter case. Those who choose not to carry are likewise free to make that choice...

[HockeyMom]

26. Their in the NRA literature all the time

but the NRA never publishes things like this because it doesn't suit their agenda.

[gejohnston]

28. grammar police: They're not Their n/t

[eqfan592]

29. And how many defensive gun uses does the Brady Campaign talk about?

I doubt you'll see them giving equal time either.

[petronius]

30. Ive never heard anyone argue that firearms are infallible solutions to all problems, or that there

aren't situations where guns are useless, or that firearms can fail as defensive tools even when perfectly deployed. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if self-defense experts - including NRA instructors - spent a fair amount of time discussing situations such as the tragedy you mention, to illustrate the importance of considering the totality of self-protection strategies (including awareness, and attempting to avoid of such situations in the first place)...

[HockeyMom]

31. So called Crimes of Passion

very, very difficult to defend against that one, other than putting as much physical space between the perp and potential victim. Unfortuntely, guns are not the answer to this one. There really was not much this woman could do to protect herself against her husband, other than moving far away.

I say this because I worked at a place where an ex-husband came after his wife at the place of her employment. Yes, she had a gun, but he hid in the parking lot and shot at her as she was coming out of work. No way she could know that. Again, crimes of passion by a family member are very, very difficult to defend. I personally feel people are more in danger of this than some unknown attacker. So what is the point of guns then?

[petronius]

32. Every time I drive my car I wear a seatbelt and drive as carefully as possible,

because I know that there are situations where these precautions may prevent injury or death. However, I also know that there are circumstances where all the precautions in the world won't help, and despite my best efforts I may still die a grisly flaming highway death. Despite the reality of scenarios where the precautions won't help, I still take them in preparation for the scenarios where they will be beneficial.

It's the exact same thing with firearms: in some situations they will help. In others, despite all the training, practice, and care in the world, a gun may still prove useless. The latter fact has no bearing on the reality of the former point, and those who choose to exercise the right to keep and/or carry arms do so knowing that they are not a panacea, but can be exceedingly useful in preserving life in certain circumstances.

I honestly don't understand why you refuse to recognize this; you post repeatedly about situations where a gun didn't or wouldn't have helped, but such situations say nothing at all about the validity of carrying a firearm as one form of self-protection in case of situations where it will be of use... :shrug:

[HockeyMom]

33. I think they are pointless,

give a false sense of security, and only add to the violence problem in society. I do have a "horse" in this race since I have a husband who owns, and has guns, in my house. When he just owned rifles for sport, that was one thing, but I really object to the handguns. Even he is terrified that somebody will break into the house when we aren't home, and STEAL THEM. Again, so what is the point? He was a carry permit and doesn't. Again, what is the point? Just because you CAN? I don't buy that.

[petronius]

34. Those are fine foundations for your personal opinion, but they carry zero weight in a

policy discussion. A false sense of security is certainly something to guard against, but as I alluded to upthread I'm confident that instructors, self-defense experts, and most gun-owners are keenly aware of that fact. Guns aren't infallible or universally applicable, and no one here has suggested otherwise.

As far as your familial disagreements, I sense that you're pissed but it has no relevance to anyone here. That your husband chooses to do something against your wishes, that you view as pointless, provides no insight into the reasonableness of anyone else owning or carrying a firearm...

[HockeyMom]

35. It does when I am lumped into the gun ownership society

"How many HOUSEHOLDS own guns." By default, that includes me. It is sort of a guilt by association. Just because someone in the household owns guns, doesn't necessarily mean all those in that household agree with that. NRA thinks that is so. When our adult daughters still lived with us, they would have been included in that too. I suppose that is how the NRA pumps up their numbers.

[petronius]

36. I don't see what that has to do with anything at all

If your household contains guns it's a household with guns - that doesn't mean that anyone thinks you're a gun-owning individual. The NRA isn't counting you as a member or anything else. And unless you've responded to a poll or survey, neither your household nor you has been counted at all.

But what's the relevance? You have reasons for not thinking guns are useful, but the personal basis of those reasons isn't transferable or applicable to anyone else. You don't want to own guns and you choose not to - that's your right and everyone respects it. Others find guns useful in a variety of ways, and choose to own/carry them to be prepared for situations when they're needed. That right and choice is equally deserving of respect...

[X_Digger]

37. Oh the horrah! Oh teh shame!

It's the shame of being a good liberal with a misguided husband..

Moral panic in a bottle.

[Glassunion]

19. It is a sad series of events that led up to that shooting.

1. According to his son during an interview with police two years ago, the father had "talked about killing everybody".
However, the police did not act on that threat.

2. He had admitted to the police that he had fired a gun several times during an argument with his son.
This is a felony that if convicted prohibits you from ever possessing a firearm again. However it was not prosecuted because the wife and son stopped cooperating with the prosecutor. So no one acted on this threat either.

3. According to an interview with the police 2 years ago the shooter said that he considered killing himself, telling investigators he was scared by the prospect of jail and frustrated with his son.
This is solid grounds to an involuntary commitment in the state. According to the FL Backer Act under criteria for an involuntary examination: "(2) There is a substantial likelihood that without care or treatment the person will cause serious bodily harm to himself or herself or others in the near future, as evidenced by recent behavior" However the police failed to act on this threat as well.

4. In 2009 sheriff’s deputies found Jeffery Moretz had taken six Xanax pills. They transported him to Physicians Regional-Pine Ridge. During an interview Jeffery Moretz told his wife that he was going to shoot himself or overdose on pills, the report said.
Neither the hospital or police acted on his attempted suicide.

It is truly sad.

[rl6214]

22. Your NRA BS is just that, BS

You can talk all you want about the NRA but they have nothing to do with this or the situation you described. Every hospital I have been in has had no gun signs at the doors so the only ones carrying a gun will be the ones willing to break the law and take one in. Until they post guards at every door and have metal detectors there is no way you are going to stop that, concealed carry or not.

[PavePusher]

24. Succesful self-defense in such situations happens quite frequently.

If, unlike Diane Sawyer, you actually look for the stories:

http://www.keepandbeararms.com/

http://www.thearmedcitizen.com/

Have fun! :hi:

Edit: When I'm in a hospital, I'm always armed. Just like almost everywhere else I go.

[oneshooter]

25. All happened in "gun free"zones? Most medical centers are. n/t

[HockeyMom]

27. No signs say gun frree

No smoking, yes. No guns, no. Actually, I don't think hospitals are gun free zones in Florida.

[Hoopla Phil]

38. I'm thinking my sister is ready to finally take the class.

I'll be seeing her in two weeks and we're going to discuss it.