After today, Illinois will be only state with concealed-carry ban

[n2doc]

Associated Press
6:13 a.m. CDT, July 8, 2011

Wisconsin is about to join 48 other states in legalizing the carrying of concealed weapons when Gov. Scott Walker signs a bill removing the state's ban.

With the legalization in Wisconsin, Illinois will be the only state with a ban.

Walker plans to sign the bill Friday afternoon in Wausau. Concealed weapons will be legal starting in November.

Gun supporters argue legalizing concealed carry in Wisconsin is long overdue. Opponents say it will not curb crime and will put more guns on the street.

Under Wisconsin's law, people who obtain a permit and go through training will be allowed to carry concealed weapons in most public buildings, including the state Capitol and city halls, unless there is a sign posted saying they are not permitted.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-after-today-illinois-will-be-only-state-with-concealedcarry-ban-20110708,0,1516963.story

[ileus]

1. Wonder why opponents never say legal guns on the street?

why do they have such a problem reporting the facts?

[armueller2001]

2. Somehow

They always forget to mention that CCW permit holders are several times more law abiding than the public in general...

[billh58]

3. Let's see, because

I don't have a CCW permit I am "several times" less law-abiding than you? Is that what you're trying to say?

Wow...

[slackmaster]

4. Statistics. How do they work?

http://www.fgse.nova.edu/edl/secure/stats/index.htm

[armueller2001]

5. Nope.

The crime rate for those who hold permits is several times less than the overall crime rate. Do you understand statistics?

[PavePusher]

6. Yeah, 'cause it's all about YOU....

well, except that it isn't, ya know....

[billh58]

7. Yes, I understand

statistics, but the obvious hyperbole was just too hard to ignore. And yes, I know it's not all about me, or you, or any individual. Having a CCW does not automatically make anyone more "law abiding" than anyone else. It only means that you have most likely had a background check, and some firearms training. See the difference? Statistically, holding a CCW (or an orange) in the USA makes it unlikely that one will be trampled by a wild elephant herd.

The poster is attempting to imply that carrying a gun makes someone more socially responsible than someone who doesn't. That is neither statistically supported, nor is it logical. The real message should be that CCW holders who have passed background checks are generally more law-abiding than criminals (the part of the "general public" being compared) who have not passed a background check and/or carry guns illegally with criminal intent (big "duh" moment here).

Those who contribute regularly to the gungeon are fond of pointing out that guns by themselves are neither evil nor good -- they are just "tools". Why then would a citizen carrying a gun be any more evil or good than a citizen not carrying a gun? The conclusion can only be that law-abiding citizens are not prone to crime, while citizens with anti-social tendencies are inclined to be law-breakers. Which category a citizen falls into has absolutely nothing to do with carrying a gun.

Gunners should at least try and develop a sense of humor. If you can't laugh at yourselves from time-to-time, the rest of us will do it for you...;-)

Peace...

[PavePusher]

10. "The poster is attempting to imply that carrying a gun makes someone more socially responsible..."

Ummm, no, that's not at all what he was implying.

The act of carrying a gun doesn't accomplish that. The fact that they are carrying legally implies that they are non-lawbreakers to begin with. And the results of the statistics support that.

As for the humor/hyperbole, sometimes that doesn't come over well in plain text. There are icons/smilies available to help with that.

[friendly_iconoclast]

11. The poster implied nothing of the sort. They specified "CCW permit holders" for a reason-

It's true, like it or not.

And I also see the strawman argument here:

The poster is attempting to imply that carrying a gun makes someone more socially responsible than someone who doesn't. That is neither statistically supported, nor is it logical.

Note how "CCW permit holders" has become "carrying a gun"? Nuance: It doesn't mean "the women your uncles just married".

The real message should be that CCW holders who have passed background checks are generally more law-abiding than criminals (the part of the "general public" being compared) who have not passed a background check and/or carry guns illegally with criminal intent (big "duh" moment here).

Why should that be "the real message"? The fact remains that CCW holders are far more law abiding than the public as a whole,

much less criminals, and there's a couple of decades' worth of statistics freely available from the states of Florida and Texas

to back it up.


It might be inconvenient for some, but it's the truth.

[billh58]

13. Wow, it appears that

I have tried to pick a fight in a biker bar, and gotten my ass kicked -- again. Actually, I was not trying to pick a fight, and if the poster was not trying to imply that those who hold CCW permits are "more law-abiding" than those who don't, then I apologize to all gunners everywhere. That, however, is how I read the post, and it made me laugh.

FWIW, I am not an "anti" in the sense that you guys use the term and bristle at. I just have no need to own or use a firearm of any kind, but I am definitely law-abiding and according to my wife, somewhat loveable...;-)

[spin]

14. Owning a firearm is your choice ...

and if you ever decide that you do have a need to own one, you should be able to legally buy the revolver, semi auto pistol, rifle or shotgun of your choice if you are as honest as you claim.

[billh58]

15. Oh, I could buy

a firearm today if I wanted, as I work for a Federal Government contractor and have been through several levels of security and background checks over the years. If I did decide to buy a gun, I would need to register it with the local cop shop in order to be "legal." I couldn't get a carry permit, however, unless I was hired for a $17.50/hour rent-a-cop gig, and then I could only carry in specific places while on-duty.

You see, I live on Maui in Hawaii, and while hunting is a popular pastime here, carrying guns in public for self-defense just never caught on for some reason.

[slackmaster]

12. Are you familiar with the Straw Man logical fallacy?

That's when one party in a debate argues against a position not held by the opposing party. The bogus position, or Straw Man, is often a distorted and weaker argument than the opposing party has presented.

Having a CCW does not automatically make anyone more "law abiding" than anyone else.

Nobody has said that it would.

[DonP]

8. At least you;re not a "Mayor Against Illegal Guns"

Those guys have more criminal members than a street gang!

[guardian]

9. It's a good thing that those tough anti-gun laws

have practically eradicated crime in Illinois!

:sarcasm:

[Hoopla Phil]

16. The real "backlash" started with the so called assault weapon ban.

We've been gaining ground ever sense then.