19 mass shooting committed by CWP holders

[MyrnaLoy]

Diana Barker, a Kingwood grandmother recalling the night this past January when she was shot (by a concealed weapon permit holder) while eating in an upscale restaurant in northeast Houston.

On March 5 after a car wreck, 24 year-old Richard Calderon (a concealed weapon permit holder) allegedly shot at another car, killing 13-year-old Alexis Wiley, a passenger in her mother’s vehicle which had been involved in the mishap.

In 2009, the Violence Policy Center began an ongoing research project to identify killings from May 2007 to the present involving citizens legally allowed to carry concealed handguns. Because detailed information on such killings is not readily available, the VPC is forced to rely primarily on news accounts for reports of such killings and subsequent legal proceedings.

Keep it private NRA, we'll never know the truth. The numbers, in all probability, are actually higher.

Concealed Handgun Permit Holder: Michael McLendon
People Killed: 11 (including shooter)

Concealed Handgun Permit Holder: Carey H. Dyess
People Killed: 6 (including shooter)

Legal Concealed Handgun Carrier: Jared Lee Loughner
People Killed: 6

Concealed Handgun Permit Holder: Omar Thornton
People Killed: 9

Concealed Handgun Permit Holder: Gerardo Regalado
People Killed: 5 (including shooter)

Concealed Handgun Permit Holder: Paul Michael Merhige
People Killed: 4

Concealed Handgun Permit Holder: Guillermo Zarabozo
People Killed: 4

Concealed Handgun Permit Holder: Charles Johnston
People Killed: 3

Concealed Handgun Permit Holder: Jason Kenneth Hamilton
Total Killed: 4 (including shooter)

Concealed Handgun Permit Holder: Troy Brake
People Killed: 4

Concealed Handgun Permit Holder: Frank Garcia
People Killed: 4

Concealed Handgun Permit Holder: William Maxwell
People Killed: 4 (including shooter)

Concealed Handgun Permit Holder: Terrance Hough Jr
People Killed: 3
People Wounded: 2

Concealed Handgun Permit Holder: George Sodini
People Killed: 4 (including shooter)

Concealed Handgun Permit Holder: Richard Poplawski
Total Killed: 3
Total Wounded: 1
Law Enforcement Officers Killed: 3 Law Enforcement Officers Wounded: 1

Concealed Handgun Permit Holder: Michael Joe Hood
People Killed: 3

Concealed Handgun Permit Holder: Justin Matern
People Killed: 4 (including shooter)

Concealed Handgun Permit Holder: Christopher Speight
People Killed: 8

Concealed Handgun Permit Holder: Aaron Poseidon Jackson
People Killed: 4 (including shooter)

92 dead, killed by permit holders. The numbers are much higher but you will never know the truth because the NRA fights to keep records sealed.

http://www.vpc.org/ccwkillers.htm

[GKirk]

1. Your headline seems to be inaccurate...

...what were the 'mass' shootings?

[billh58]

4. Click on the

link, and then click on the number 019 below the category ""Mass Shootings."

[MyrnaLoy]

5. I edited

and listed them

[cliffordu]

2. I hit rec by accident. Sorry.

I wonder how many people were killed by people who have driver's licenses on purpose.

I mean with their cars.

Let's do some math:

How many CWP holders are there, nationwide....

And how many HOMICIDES are committed each year by them?


That's a much better question.

( I don't think sucide is an issue cause my daddy had a gun but used a knife to kill hisself, not wanting to mess up the walls, I expect.)

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MyrnaLoy]

7. do you

normally unreq and hide from the truth?

[cliffordu]

30. Nope. I unrec and speak my piece. Just like I did.

Except I hit rec instead of unrec....

[RSillsbee]

37. No worries I unrecc'd it for you

I would have anyway though

[cliffordu]

54. I thank you. If you ever need the favor returned, let me know.

[Hoyt]

38. How many CWP holders need a friggin gun in public? Very few.

[TheWraith]

47. How many people need a seatbelt in a car? Very few. How many need a fire extinguisher at home?

Very few. Doesn't change the fact that when you DO need one, if you don't have it, you're in trouble.

Fortunately, "need" and particularly your definition of need isn't allowed to define public policy, any more than the Women's Christian Temperance Union is able to define whether I "need" to drink alcohol.

[Hoyt]

52. Seatbelts, fire ex, etc., don't shoot people -- by intention or mistake.

[TheWraith]

56. Do guns leap out of drawers and fire themselves?

Or is that either negligence or malice on the part of their possessors, the way it is with virtually anything from cars to alcohol?

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hoyt]

61. Sorry, man, we aren't talking about exterminating roaches here. Besides gun pollute society.

[GreenStormCloud]

65. They also save lives. My wife is alive because she carried her gun.

I am disgusted that you would be politically happier if she had been murdered.

[eqfan592]

59. No, but they can kill in other ways.

http://www.floridatoday.com/article/20110613/BREAKINGNEWS/306130002/1-killed-by-out-control-fire-extinguisher-Melbourne

http://www.defrance.org/artman/publish/article_1308.shtml

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=5487781&page=1

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[eqfan592]

66. lol, nice, hoyt.

I point out a flaw in your reasoning so of course I clearly must not have "all the marbles" as you put it.

[RSillsbee]

78. You are correct but, until you can pick WHICH few

I'll reserve my right to carry a gun thanks.

[TheWraith]

6. So, the case of a woman being hit by a negligent discharge is now a "mass shooting"?

Pathetic.

"Because detailed information on such killings is not readily available"

Actually, it IS readily available from the FBI. Problem is, the actual statistics make it clear that you're at more risk for being killed by lightning strikes. So the Republican-owned and operated VPC has to claim that there's a big conspiracy to keep them from having full numbers, and then toss out a few anecdotes like they matter. Sort of the way that the fundies toss out a few cases of men molesting boys as "proof" that gay people are pedophiles.

[MyrnaLoy]

9. you may

want to reread the post.

[TheWraith]

45. Maybe you should re-read your own post. Very first line?

"Diana Barker, a Kingwood grandmother recalling the night this past January when she was shot (by a concealed weapon permit holder) while eating in an upscale restaurant in northeast Houston."

You may remember the story, your fellow windmill tilters tried to make hay out of it for weeks. A guy drops his gun, a design which was an antique a hundred years ago and is completely unsuitable for concealed carry, and it went off, striking the woman in the leg.

Care to explain how that's a mass murder?

[Hoyt]

39. "Negligent Discharge" -- now that's quaint. It's some jerk with a gun and lead for brains. Result

Result, someone's mother is dead, and those who can't leave home without a gun are making excuses to keep their pipeline open.

[TheWraith]

44. Bonus points for literally getting all your statements wrong.

If you'd cared to actually read the very first line of the post, which I was referring to, you would notice that the woman was alive and well.

But keep going, please. You don't get that the more you insult and broad-brush gun owners, the more you turn away people who might otherwise listen to some of what you have to say.

[Hoyt]

50. OK, she could have been killed. Should have said Mother scared shitless. Doesn't change anythingelse

[TheWraith]

57. Okay, so what's your solution?

Once in a long while a bad thing happen, so we should curtail the rights of hundreds of millions of people? By that logic, people shouldn't be allowed to drink, smoke, or drive, all of which kill tens of thousands of times more people than firearms accidents.

[AnOhioan]

8. But..CCW holders are law abiding citizens....at least that is what they tell us

[GreenStormCloud]

13. We are more law abiding that the general public.

There are about 10 million of us. Out of that many there will be some bad apples. Those bad apples would have committed their crimes anyway. Denying them a license would not have stopped them, just like denying a criminal a driver's license won't stop him from driving a car. We do not claim perfection.

Texas publishes detail statistics every year. There is no reason to believe that other states with similar laws would have a different experience. Texas stats at: http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/convrates.htm

[provis99]

20. felons can't get concealed weapons permits.

so your statement is silly on it's face. It's like arguing people not convicted of any crimes are less likely to be convicts in prison.

[friendly_iconoclast]

27. Still, you would agree that CWP holders present no especial danger to the public...

...bloody shirt waving by the VPC notwithstanding?

[GreenStormCloud]

34. So then why should you deny CCWs to the non-felon public? N/T

[Hoyt]

40. But no more law abiding than 225 million who could get a permit, but choose not to do so.

[GreenStormCloud]

89. Proof please. N/T

[applegrove]

10. OP speaks for itself.

[GreenStormCloud]

11. Jared Lee Loughner did NOT have an Arizona CCW.

I don't feel like looking up the details on the others. It is obvious that you are interested only in anti-gun propaganda and not in the truth.

[provis99]

22. that's disingenous. He didn't need a CCW to carry a gun.

[GreenStormCloud]

33. If he wanted reciprocity he needed a permit.

VPC counts him as a CCW killer just as they count all the citizens, who can legally have a gun, of VT, WY, & AK as having CCWs. VPC is being disengenous by including him.

VPC also includes dozens of CCW suicides in which the only person killed (Often by means other than gunshot.)was the CCWer himself. If you don't believe me take a look at the VPC website, vignettes section, page 62 and the next few pages.

[ileus]

35. Ok that means there's 6,595,777 non-offenders in Arizona. 6,595,77 : 1 Not a bad ratio

[PavePusher]

121. News flash: Criminals don't do the paperwork to carry guns!!

This may be a shock to you....

[DissedByBush]

132. It's about the lies; the Brady Bunch types can't keep from lying

Fact: They listed Loughner as a CCW license holder
Fact: He wasn't

They lied.

They always do.

I wonder how many more lies are in this list.

[rrneck]

12. Almost two million ccw's in Florida alone.

What changes in the law nationwide would you suggest to reduce nineteen to zero while avoiding the possibility that someone would be killed or injured because they couldn't carry as a result of that law?

[spin]

14. One of the instances deals with Jared Lee Loughner and the Arizona shooting ...

Arizona
# Legal Concealed Handgun Carrier: Jared Lee Loughner
INCOMPETENT TO STAND TRIAL
Date: January 8, 2011
People Killed: 6

Circumstances: On January 8, 2011, Jared Lee Loughner, 22, armed with a Glock 19
pistol outfitted with a 33-round ammunition magazine opened fire at a “Congress on
Your Corner” constituent event held by Arizona U.S. Representative Gabrielle Giffords
outside a Tucson Safeway supermarket. Loughner killed six people, including a federal
judge and a nine-year-old girl, and injured 13, including Giffords, who was shot once in
the face. In 2010, Arizona become only the third state that does not require a permit of
any type to carry a concealed handgun outside of the home. As a result, Loughner was
able to legally carry his pistol to the Giffords event in his assassination attempt.emphasis added
http://www.vpc.org/fact_sht/ccwmassshootings.pdf

He didn't have a permit to carry. He may have been carrying concealed firearms legally in Arizona, but that has little to do with those who have passed the background check and received training in order to get a real carry permit

This means that to the VPC any person who carries a firearm in public in the three states that allow concealed carry without a permit will be called a person with a CWP. The VPC will be able to inflate their figures dramatically by using this approach. Every criminal in those states who uses a concealed firearm on the street qualifies.

None of the pro concealed carry posters in this forum has ever said that those with carry permits are angels. An extremely small percentage of those with permits do run amok and cause tragedies. It is necessary to realize that more than 10 million people have carry permits.

The VPC also ignores the many stories where people legitimately use their legally concealed weapons to prevent injury or death to themselves or others from criminal attacks.

[Euromutt]

15. It should be noted the VPC defines "mass shooting" as 3 dead, including the perp

More commonly, "mass shooting" is defined as 4 or more dead victims, not counting the perpetrator. By lowering the number to 3, and counting the shooter as a victim if he capped himself, the VPC has been able to roughly double the number of incidents of "mass shootings" than if they used the common definition.

Then there's the point that for a shooting to be "mass," the victims have to all be shot in roughly the same location and around the same time. However, if you look at the examples of Frank Garcia (New York state), it says he shot three people in Brockport, and then two more in Canadaigua. By road, those towns are 590 miles apart, an hour's drive at minimum, making it more a case of two non-"mass" shootings than of one "mass" shooting.

So the number of incidents that would normally be classed as "mass shootings" is actually nine, not nineteen.

In addition, Loughner didn't have a concealed carry permit. True, at the time of the Tucson shooting, Arizona no longer required a permit to carry concealed, but that still doesn't make Loughner a permit holder.

The numbers are much higher but you will never know the truth because the NRA fights to keep records sealed.

What evidence do you have for your claim that "the numbers are much higher"? That's right, you don't, "because the NRA fights to keep records sealed"; that's called an argument from ignorance. Moreover, the very fact that the VPC is able to compile these incidents is evidence that your claim is untrue: it is evidently perfectly possible to find out that a shooter had a CCW permit even if records are not accessible to the public.

[Euromutt]

53. Correction: the criterium is 3 dead, *not* including the perp (my mistake)

However, the VPC does count the perp as a "victim" in the number of dead.

[DonP]

16. And legislators are so impressed by these VPC reports that they are doing nothing about it

As a result of the VPC twisted reports and statistics, stretching the truth over 7 or more years to come up with a handful of incidents, 49 states have absolutely no plans to change any of their current firearm laws, passed by a bipartisan vote in every state, with the exception of making the CCW laws more liberal.

And yes, the records will remain sealed, but not from the people that matter, like the police and sheriff's office, just from nosy busybodies and the press.

I might add that all of you gun control people are also doing absolutely nothing about it either, other than an occasional whiny post using old HCI, VPC, and Brady (all the same shit anyway) reports. So you'll excuse us if we don't really give much of a shit about anything that Brady/VPC claims or reports. They have no voice and they have no political clout anymore.

Hell, they've lied so often that even the suck up news media doesn't listen to them anymore, unless they need to trot out someone for a 15 second sound byte, when another state goes CCW or loosens restrictions on permit carriers.

Whatever happened to that poster who claimed he had personally donated, "More than $2,500 to Brady"? The crop of gun control fans we have today don't even pretend to support any group anymore, they just keep posting the same old recycled press releases but shriek every time anyone mentions the NRA or uses DoJ or FBI reports.

[gejohnston]

17. Here is a question or two

Why don't they pick up the phone and ask each state the statistics on the percentage of murders were committed by CCW holders? Sounds easier.

The threat of a minor felony or a misdemeanor (Wyoming until recently) would prevent them from committing murder? Sounds absurd doesn't it? That is what it seems to be saying.

the Private Citizens Killed by Concealed Handgun Permit Holders list includes a large number of "pending" with a few acquitted and "no charges filed" on the side. One claimed that a mass murder was committed by not only a CCW holder but with a registered automatic weapon. After following their cite, the Kalashnikov turned out to be neither automatic or registered.
Then there is a famous one:
Jared Lee Loughner. This is a guy that violated drug laws on a regular basis until he committed murder. Arizona's carry law (or lack of) would have made a difference?

Makes a nice Appeal to Fear project though.

[LAGC]

18. The plural of "anecdote" is not "data." (n/t)

[provis99]

21. as the OP mentioned, that data is unavailable, because it is being hidden.

[petronius]

29. The OP may frequently mention it, but it doesn't mean the claim is true

That's just the dead horse Myrna likes to abuse, when she gets the urge to try and kick up a ruckus in the forum...

[just55650]

84. ^this

[aikoaiko]

19. What makes you think that police are not checking on this when they arrest people for gun crimes or

why the news wouldn't report it if the info was in publicly available in court documents?

[oneshooter]

23. What type of "detailed information" would be required by you? n/t

[one-eyed fat man]

24. Still calling bullshit

You claim to hold a concealed weapons permit in Washington state.

You claim all concealed carry permit holder information should be made public.

Put your money where your mouth is, post your information publicly. Put up or shut up.

If you won't post your information publicly, explain why you think every other CCW holder's info should be public.

[AzWorker]

25. hehe

"Put up or shut up"


I suspect it will be the latter....

[one-eyed fat man]

28. Bet you are wrong.

It will be neither. We'll have another post on the same subject inside of 48 hours.

Shameless self-serving hypocrisy is no hindrance.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=435991&mesg_id=435991

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=422366&mesg_id=422366

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php/www/://duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=420740&mesg_id=420989

When previously asked about holding a CCW here was the response:

"I am and the Washington list is available"

In response to that claim:

"Washington list is only available to law enforcement.

See item (4).

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=42.56.240

None of the information on the application can be released. Maybe raw data can, but that's not the issue with "secret" lists, and it never was. Has anyone objected to raw data being released?

Nevertheless, if you believe all the information should be public, here's your chance."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=422366&mesg_id=422417

It's also not the fist time the challenge to make public what the OP insists should be freely accessible public information has been declined.

[friendly_iconoclast]

26. Myrna, this may be *your* first "CCW Killers" rodeo- but *we've* been here before

You will note that despite the multiple lurid anecdotes, CCW holders are still far more law abiding than average.

Next time you are trying desperately to divert us from the latest ATF fuckup, you might wanna do some research,

lest you embarrass yourself yet again:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=282461

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=281654&mesg_id=281654

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=294892

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=304374

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=321300

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=315588&mesg_id=315588

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=406077

[Hoyt]

41. And you guys are still posting the same lame excuses.

[GreenStormCloud]

88. Not excuses. We show how the VPC number are cooked until they are burned.

Then we show how even those burned numbers prove that we are remarkably safe carrying guns. All you do is post insulting one-liners.

[Euromutt]

31. There's an element here that reminds me strongly of the so-called "gun show loophole" discussion

It's this: I see the ginning up of a supposed problem, the proposal of a solution to said supposed problem, and then the refusal to even consider any other proposed solution.

We've seen this with the so-called "gun show loophole": over the past couple of years, I've seen posters on this forum come up with a number of alternative suggestions as to how background checks could be applied to private-party sales in some form, either at gun shows specifically or in general, only to have these waved away as not good enough without adequate explanation why. The only action the gun control advocates are willing to countenance is requiring sales between private parties to go through the intermediary of an FFL (in effect outlawing private-party sales).

Now I'm seeing this hobby horse of how violent firearm crimes by CCW permit holders are supposedly under-reported, and the only solution to this purported problem is to make records of CCW permits publicly accessible to all comers.

See, here's where I get suspicious. Why is only one particular solution acceptable to address the supposed problem? Could it be that the control advocates' objective is not to solve the purported problem, but to get that particular measure imposed, and the supposed need to solve the problem is merely a pretext to get that measure imposed?

[ileus]

32. I have a CHP and I haven't killed anyone.

[Hoyt]

42. Probably haven't need the dang thing, yet you can't leave home without it.

[TheWraith]

48. I haven't needed a fire extinguisher yet. Clearly, that means they're useless and no one need them.

:eyes:

[Common Sense Party]

81. I have homeowners and auto insurance, too. Haven't had to use the

policies--that is, submit a claim--but I'd be a big moron not to have them.

Sometimes I even carry an umbrella and it doesn't even rain on me.

[ileus]

71. Be kind of dumb not to use them for the reason I bought them for.

[GreenStormCloud]

76. Haven't needed it yet, but it hurts no one for me to have it.

And my wife did need hers a few years ago.

[ileus]

36. So which is it.......Guns or People that kill people?

[Hoyt]

43. Guns enable folks to do bad things that most wouldn't do.

[ileus]

46. Sounds like we need to ban guns so no more bad will be done.

[Hoyt]

51. You are starting to get it. Now, leave your guns at home tomorrow.

[ileus]

72. Tell you what I'll leave 96.43% of mine at home tomorrow.

[Glassunion]

79. One of two things...

I'm speculating here...

Either A. You own 28 firearms... Or B. Your being a smart ass and finally bought a Rossi Model:R97104.

Either way... Cool!

[Euromutt]

55. That must be why there was no murder in the Middle Ages

Oh, except homicide rates in 14th century Europe made Baltimore or Oakland look like Singapore, even though there were no man-portable firearms yet.

[Common Sense Party]

82. So does alcohol.

Are you up for Prohibition 2.0?

[krispos42]

49. And they remain exceedingly rare

This also does not change the fact that homicides are creeping steadily downward despite the anecdotal evidence above.


Which would you rather have... fewer murders, but more mass murders, or the inverse?

[krispos42]

60. Michael McLendon

From Wikipedia. My notes are in bold.

The attacks began at McLendon's residence in Kinston, Alabama, where he killed his mother and set the house on fire. Had nothing to do with his ability to legally carry in public. He went to a relative's home in Samson where he shot several members of his family as well as a neighbor and her daughter. Had nothing to do with his ability to legally carry in public. McLendon left the family member's home, killed a pedestrian alongside the road, Had nothing to do with his ability to legally carry in public then stopped at a local gas station, killing a customer inside Had nothing to do with his ability to legally carry in public. McLendon left the gas station heading along Alabama Highway 52 towards Geneva, Alabama. He killed another man who was attempting to subdue him Had nothing to do with his ability to legally carry in public. The suspect is also said to have fired at cars on the highway Had nothing to do with his ability to legally carry in public. Law enforcement officers at one point used the PIT maneuver on the suspect's car which failed to stop him. He died in a shoot-out in a Geneva metal products plant in which he is said to have previously worked Had nothing to do with his ability to legally carry in public. During the shoot-out, Geneva police chief Frankie Lindsey was shot in the arm. Several people were also injured.

He used two rifles and a pistol. Even if we let you state that the deaths from pistol bullets are somehow valid in terms of blaming CCW permits, you can't carry an SKS or an AR-15 concealed.

So, best case for your argument is a number significantly less than the claim of 11. Worst case, zero.



Carey H. Dyess

I searched Wikipedia and Google News. I can find no mention of the kind of gun used, nor if the person had a CCW permit. So no comment from me, except to note that, like McLendon's shootings, the man left his house with a gun in hand and murder on his mind, so whether he was legally carrying probably isn't relevant.



Omar Thornton

He had the pistols in his lunch box, and pulled them out when the staff moved to escort him from the premises. I doubt this can be credited to legal-concealed carry in that the workplace almost certainly has rules restricting bringing weapons to work. Even if he had a CCW permit, it would not have been legal for him to be carrying the guns.

To be attributable to legal concealed carry, the murder must be carrying legally where he could not be carrying legally otherwise.

It is not clear whether Mr. Thornton had a pistol permit or a concealed pistol permit. In Connecticut, you need a pistol permit to remove your handgun from the 4 walls of your house. As a Connecticut resident and pistol owner, I cannot bring my pistol outside of the house unless I am in the process of moving. Period. So I can't even go to the shooting range unless I get a pistol permit.

It's fucking ridiculous, frankly. And all the ranges check for a permit before they'll let you shoot a pistol, unless you rent one of theirs.

Anyway, doing a Google search for "Omar Thornton Concealed Pistol Permit" shows the VPC calling it a "concealed" pistol permit, while news sources state he has a "pistol permit". They are quoting his girlfriend. He would need one or the other to take her shooting.

In the absence of further data, this point remains unproven.



I have to stop now; I have to get up at o-god-o'clock in the morning for a trip to Jersey. Bleah.


Perhaps others could continue my work.

[MyrnaLoy]

64. what work?

proving people with concealed weapon permits killed people? Thanks for reinforcing that for me.

[eqfan592]

67. lol, nobody ever claimed that permit holders never did anything wrong...

...up to and including murder. What you fail to understand is the difference between the total number of crimes and the rate of such crimes. Sorry, but your entire thought process on this issue is laughably flawed, pure and simple.

[krispos42]

70. I bet they all had driver's licenses, too. Oh, if only they didn't have a driver's license...

...there would have been NO WAY they could have driven around killing all those people, right?

Right?

[SteveM]

74. Pretty punk reasoning, but not surprised. This stuff has been up before...

...and been repudiated before.

[ManiacJoe]

63. Unrec for the VPC.

[tortoise1956]

68. Once again shading the truth

Let's take these one at a time:

Concealed Handgun Permit Holder: Michael McLendon
People Killed: 11 (including shooter)
The original stories make no mention of McLenden having a CCW. There is a statement that he was licensed to carry certain pistols. According to Alabama state law a permit is required to carry a pistol, either open or concealed, anywhere else than your house, your land, or your fixed place of business. Not a CCW. FAIL

Concealed Handgun Permit Holder: Carey H. Dyess
People Killed: 6 (including shooter)
Arizona does not require a CCW. FAIL

Legal Concealed Handgun Carrier: Jared Lee Loughner
People Killed: 6
Arizona does not require a CCW. FAIL

Concealed Handgun Permit Holder: Omar Thornton
People Killed:
Connecticut requires a permit to carry a pistol anywhere other than our own property. Without this permit, you can't legally take a pistol anywhere, including a shooting range. FAIL

Concealed Handgun Permit Holder: Gerardo Regalado
People Killed: 5 (including shooter)
One of the VPC sources mentions a CCW (WSVMN). One makes no mention of a CCW {Herald 6-7-2010). I can't locate the last source at all (Miami Herald 6-8-2010), including the Herald's website. In addition, there is no mention of a CCW anywhere but the WSVN story. UNKNOWN

Concealed Handgun Permit Holder: Paul Michael Merhige
People Killed: 4
The only mention of a CCW is attributed to a gun store owner where he purchased handguns. No official corroboration. Also, he wasn't charged with that offense. UNKNOWN

Concealed Handgun Permit Holder: Guillermo Zarabozo
People Killed: 4
Of 5 sources quoted by VPC, one mentioned that he had a "state permit" to carry 3 handguns. Two others don't mention it. The Miami Herald stories aren't available. UNKNOWN

Concealed Handgun Permit Holder: Charles Johnston
People Killed: 3
He had a carry permit, required under Georgia law to carry either open or concealed. Not a CCW. FAIL

Concealed Handgun Permit Holder: Jason Kenneth Hamilton
Total Killed: 4 (including shooter)He had a long history of mental illness, yet was able to obtain a federal license to purchase and automatic weapon and a locally issued CCW. PASS - but he should never have been issued either, the system failed.


Concealed Handgun Permit Holder: Troy Brake
People Killed: 4
No argument. PASS

Concealed Handgun Permit Holder: Frank Garcia
People Killed: 4
Are you kidding me? This guy had a major record and was denied twice. He should never have had a weapon of any kind. PASS - but the system failed once again.

Concealed Handgun Permit Holder: William Maxwell
People Killed: 4 (including shooter)
No argument. PASS

Right now my score is 5 FAIL, 3 UNKNOWN, and 4 PASS. However, two of the PASS should have NEVER been given a gun permit. They were poster children for a rational system to check out potential handgun buyers.

I gotta go to sleep, 6AM comes soon. will try to remember to continue this tomorrow.

[MyrnaLoy]

69. hahahahaaa

your words, "He had a carry permit, required under Georgia law to carry either open or concealed. Not a CCW. FAIL"

"There is a statement that he was licensed to carry certain pistols. According to Alabama state law a permit is required to carry a pistol, either open or concealed, anywhere else than your house, your land, or your fixed place of business. Not a CCW. FAIL"

"Connecticut requires a permit to carry a pistol anywhere other than our own property. Without this permit, you can't legally take a pistol anywhere, including a shooting range. FAIL"



Oh yeah you sure did fail. LOL! The truth is eating at your ass isn't it.

[eqfan592]

73. LOL, Myrna, you're a laugh a minute.

The truth is what is eating at YOUR ass Mryna, which is why you keep posting the same bull over and over again, no matter how many times it gets debunked. You just never seem to understand that the plural of anecdote is NOT data. You also don't appear to understand the difference between the total number of things happening and the RATE of those things happening. These are things you should try working on in the not too distant future. ;)

[SteveM]

75. Poor dear, you just like to F... with people. Gun-control is secondary to you. nt

[MicaelS]

77. I think you're completely full of shit when you claim

You have a carry permit in any state. Why on earth would you want to be associated with such evil people as you apparently portray other CCW holders?

[one-eyed fat man]

80. Working on an advanced degree

from the Carl Rowan School of Hypocrisy.

The reason given for having the permit is to evade the waiting period for a handgun purchase in Washington state. Totally self-serving. Rules are for other people. They are not worthy.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=423465&mesg_id=423668

"I enjoy shooting, I don't like waiting...I can buy a hand gun without the waiting period..."

[tortoise1956]

83. Finishing it off...

Concealed Handgun Permit Holder: Terrance Hough Jr
People Killed: 3
People Wounded: 2
An extensive search came up with stories with claims from other sources that he had a CCW. No one with direct knowledge ever stated that fact in a story. However, I'll accept it. PASS

Concealed Handgun Permit Holder: George Sodini
People Killed: 4 (including shooter)
Pennsylvania requires a carry permit to transport a weapon in a car. Without that, you can't take your weapon to the range without running the risk of being charged with a "Felony of the third degree" - quote from the applicable state law. You can carry either way with this permit. It's called a License to Carry Firearms, according to state law. NOT a CCW. FAIL

Concealed Handgun Permit Holder: Richard Poplawski
Total Killed: 3
Total Wounded: 1
Law Enforcement Officers Killed: 3 Law Enforcement Officers Wounded: 1
The source for him having a CCW appears to be a "friend", and it only appears in one story I could find. However, I'll accept it. PASS - but once again the system failed. He had a restraining order against him, which should have triggered a call for him to surrender all weapons.

Concealed Handgun Permit Holder: Michael Joe Hood
People Killed: 3
He had a history of mental illness, shouldn't have ever been issued a permit. Also, this is once again a Handgun Carry Permit, required by law to carry the weapon in the state of Tennessee - period. NOT a CCW. FAIL on both counts

Concealed Handgun Permit Holder: Justin Matern
People Killed: 4 (including shooter)
His daughter said he had a permit. No argument. PASS

Concealed Handgun Permit Holder: Christopher Speight
People Killed: 8
No argument. PASS

Concealed Handgun Permit Holder: Aaron Poseidon Jackson
People Killed: 4 (including shooter)
Pretty solid story. PASS

So the final count is 7 FAIL, 3 UNKNOWN, 9 PASS - but 3 of those PASSES should have been prevented by law from even owning a weapon, period.

So, 6 of the 19 persons highlighted by VPC had true CCW permits (specifically for carrying concealed weapons) that they were legally qualified to possess. Not quite the same numbers, eh? Of course, I wouldn't expect VPC to present unbiased stories concerning any weapon...

And once again, I have frittered away the evening fighting the anti-gun media spinners. I gotta stop taking the forum rabble-rousers seriously...

[MyrnaLoy]

85. hey

before you go, thanks for proving all those guys had permits for me. You did all the work and I really appreciate it. It's not everyday a gun forum guy helps you like that. Those dead guys would thank you also if they could.

[friendly_iconoclast]

87. That might be relevant if somebody had claimed permit holders were saints.

And thank you for once again demonstrating the use of faith-promoting rumor, and eliding the difference between

'number' and 'rate'...

[oneshooter]

90. You never have answered one question.............

What type of data are you needing/searching for?

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[krispos42]

91. Neither he nor I proved they had "CWP" permits, per your OP

In fact, we proved that only about a third of them had concealed-carry permits.




And since nobody has proven that being able to carry concealed was a direct contributing factor to any of the murders, this does not in any way make the case for the VPC.


VPC failed on this one.



If they want to succeed, I'll be happy to tell them how to succeed: list the mass shootings of which ALL of the following are true:

• There were 4 or more victims
  
• The murderer had a valid concealed-carry permit at the time of the shooting
  
• The murders were not premeditated or otherwise planned
  
• The murderer was in public and lawfully carrying when the shooting started
  
• The murderer used a handgun to kill

Pistol-ownership permits don't count if they don't allow concealed-carry. Killing with a long arm doesn't count. Killing inside the shooter's house doesn't count. And arming yourself and driving several miles to kill somebody doesn't count, either.

[tortoise1956]

111. Did you really mis the point that badly?

If you tried to claim that CCW permit holders are not all law-abiding citizens, then I helped make your point. However, that's not what you did. You took the VPC talking points as gospel and used them to bolster your position. I demonstrated that their blanket statement was incorrect. Only 9 of the licenses were actually CCWs. Of those, 3 should never have been issued.

I would submit that my research showed the need for a rational background checks. That would have prevented the 3 I highlighted, as well as Jared Loughner, from legally possessing a weapon, which MIGHT have kept them from going on a killing spree. I would agree with that. However, I will not stand by and let half-truths and outright lies be used to try to advance the extreme gun-control organizations' wish list.

[Glassunion]

86. So what?

Just the city of Chicago had 57 such incidents in 1 year alone.

[Kennah]

92. Richard Poplawski: FAIL

The shooting took place inside the home of Poplawski's mother. CCW wasn't a factor, with or without a license.

[MyrnaLoy]

96. WOW LOL

so if he kills his family in his house his permit didn't matter? HAHAHAHAHAAA You're funny!

[Kennah]

101. Since he could have a gun in the house legally with or without the permit, yep. Non issue.

[MyrnaLoy]

105. let me make this easy cuz

well, you know. Did he have a permit?

[Euromutt]

102. It doesn't matter for the purpose of the VPC's claims

If the VPC had limited itself to pointing out that CCW permit holders are not, to a man, law-abiding and exemplary citizens, this incident would count. But if that were the VPC's thesis, the response would be "so what?" After all, there are all sorts of people who abuse the trust the people (via the state) place in them, including drivers, MDs, pharmacists, police officers and elected officials.

So the VPC had to go one further and claim that "shall issue" CCW laws enable homicides to occur that, absent those laws, would not have occurred. But to support that thesis, it's not merely enough that the killer had a CCW permit. As krispos42 rightly noted in post #91, for an incident to count, the following criteria would have to be met:

• The murderer had a valid concealed-carry permit at the time of the shooting;
• The murders were not premeditated or otherwise planned;
• The murderer was in <a location where he would have needed a permit to carry>, and lawfully carrying when the shooting started; and
• The murderer used a handgun to kill.

To cite a particularly egregious example, take the murder of Melissa Britt, allegedly by Tony Villegas. You can't reasonably claim that Britt's murder was facilitated by Villegas' holding a CCW permit, since he strangled Britt to death.

[MyrnaLoy]

106. wow

hahahahahahaa did he have a permit or not. It's a yes or no answer, can you even answer that without 8 pounds of spin?

[oneshooter]

107. Why haven't you answered the question on post #24? Afraid? n/t

[eqfan592]

108. Wow indeed.

[MyrnaLoy]

109. so no

you can't answer with a truthful yes or no. got it.

[eqfan592]

110. lol, you just can't go a day without making shit up, can you?

Yeah, pretty typical MyrnaLoy.

Good evening. :hi:

[MyrnaLoy]

112. did

the guy have a permit or not? It's so simple, yes or no. Answer it.

[eqfan592]

113. Yes, he did.

Did the permit in any way enable his crime? It's so simple, yes or no. Answer it.

[MyrnaLoy]

116. see how easy that was

admitting a permit holder killed people. Yes the permit did. What a stupid question btw, does a drivers license kill anyone? It shows bad people are getting permits. You,knew that though, you just don't want to see it. The permit actually makes his purchase of firearms easier. Easy access equaled dead people. You know that also.

Let me go back to your stupid-ass question. Can any permit kill anyone? Seriously you guys can't be that dense.

[eqfan592]

120. Wow, just wow.

You are a fine one to call anybody "dense". I mean, you do realize that people can just scroll up and see what I asked, right? And explain how the permit enabled him to do something he couldn't have done otherwise. Also, please show where anybody here ever claimed bad people don't sometimes get permits.

Edit: and the permit allowing them to skip a background check they would have passed anyway is hardly "enabling".

[Euromutt]

114. Could the guy have committed the crime despite not having a CCW permit?

That is the germane question to the point the VPC is trying to make with its report. The semi-implicit claim is that, were it not for "shall issue" CCW laws, the victims of these shootings homicides would not have been killed. That, to cite the most extreme example, Tony Villegas would not have been able to strangle Melissa Britt if he hadn't been issued a CCW permit.

I repeat, that is the point the VPC is trying--and failing--to make. I don't want to falsely ascribe their point to you, but then I have to ask again: what is the point you're trying to make?

Is it that some people who have been entrusted with certain privileges by the people, via the state, abuse the trust placed in them? Yes, we knew that. Aside from CCW permit holders, this also applies to licensed drivers, pharmacists, MDs, police officers and elected officials, to name a few. It applies to every California sheriff who's issued a CCW permit to a campaign contributor, to every cop in the NYPD Licensing Division who's accepted certain under-the-table benefits in exchange for "streamlining" an application, to every Chicago city official who possessed a handgun within the city limits and the colleagues who turned a blind eye to it.

[Name removed]

117. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Euromutt]

118. I refer you to the incomparable XKCD...

"Words that end in GRY"

Specifically the line: "Communicating badly and then acting smug when you're misunderstood is not cleverness."

Pretty much up to this point, you haven't actually bothered to state what the point, if any, is that you're trying to make. I can't get the point if you can't or won't say what it is.

[PavePusher]

129. Mirror, mirror, on the wall... n/t

[Kennah]

93. Jason Kenneth Hamilton: FAIL

Hamilton used two rifles so a CCW wasn't relevant. I'm also inclined to call Bullshit on the claim that Hamilton used a fully automatic AK-47. Read the FBI's summary from the LEOKA. They use the term "AK-47 style weapon".
http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/killed/2007/summaries.html#id

[MyrnaLoy]

97. are you

inclined cuz you want to believe differently? LOL

[Kennah]

99. I'm inclined because the FBI tends to be rather precise in their use of language.

[Kennah]

94. Guillermo Zarabozo: FAIL

According to the Federal Bureau of Prisons, Guillermo Zarabozo is age 23.
http://www.bop.gov/iloc2/LocateInmate.jsp

The murders happened in September 2007, almost 4 years ago. Zarabozo was either 19 or 20 at the time of the murders. A google search of news articles from that time cites Zarabozo as either 19 or 20 at the time of the incident.

Florida only issues a CCW (Type W license) to someone who is age 21.

However, Florida will issue security guard licenses to someone who is 18, and those are the licenses Zarabozo held.

One can actually search Florida's records online. Personally identifying information for Type W licensees isn't available, but the rest is.
http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/access/individual.html

Guillermo Zarabozo was issued a Private Investigator Intern License (Type CC), Security Officer License (Type D), and a Statewide Firearms License (Type G). These are covered under a totally different section of the law, FS Chapter 493. CCW is in FS Chapter 790.06

Licensing fees with various Types
http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/license/fees.html

This myth is busted, but don't expect VPC to update their website.

[MyrnaLoy]

95. Thanks!

Guillermo Zarabozo was issued a Statewide Firearms License. All I had to do was copy and paste from your post. Thanks for all your hard work that shows these guys had permits for firearms. This was a great thread!!! You guys proved all these guys had permits and I didn't have to do a thing, THANKS!

[Kennah]

100. And you should cower in fear every time you see an armored car guard ...

... because that's effectively what Zarabozo was.

[Euromutt]

103. I have to ask at this point: was there a coherent point you were trying to make?

See, the VPC had one, namely this (from their press release when "CCW Killers" was launched):

Kristen Rand, legislative director for the Violence Policy Center, states, "This new web site makes clear that contrary to the false promises of the gun lobby the simple and deadly fact is that state concealed handgun systems are arming cop-killers, mass shooters, and other murderers."

If you want to support the thesis that certain homicides, which would otherwise have been averted, could only occur because the killer had a CCW permit, you have to picky about which examples you include. You can't include instances of homicides committed by means other than a concealable handgun (e.g. by strangulation, see Tony Villegas), because the killer having a CCW permit didn't facilitate those. And you can't include instances in which the permit in question wasn't a CCW permit (e.g. permits issued to uniformed private security guards like Richard Tauch).

Now, I'm not saying the point you're trying to make is the same as the one the VPC is failing to make, but then the question becomes: what is your point?

[PavePusher]

130. Please demonstrate how the "permit" enabled them to do something....

they could not have done without it.

[Kennah]

98. Frank Garcia: UNKNOWN

OK, I smell sulphur. Maybe it's bullshit. Maybe it's not.

Another reference letter, dated Jan. 20, 2007, came from Bill Robinson, an official with the New York Guard. Robinson wrote that Garcia, "believes in God, respects people and takes life very seriously." And, he said, Garcia was a "level-headed, calm, easygoing guy." According to the letter, Garcia enlisted in the Guard for three years in 2001, assigned to a military police unit at the Culver Road Armory, and while serving qualified as an expert with the AR-15, AK-47, Glock 23 and M9 handgun.

Since when does the New York Guard qualify their people as expert with an AR-15 (hmmm, maybe), an AK-47, or Glock 23? This raises my suspicions that Garcia was issued a PURCHASE LICENSE, not a carry license.

[Euromutt]

104. New York state, having pioneered firearm licensing, has a somewhat unusual system

There is a single license that allows you to possess a handgun, and may also permit you to carry it concealed if the issuing authority grants permission on the document. As a result, when someone is described as having a New York state handgun permit, that permit may or may not permit the bearer to carry concealed. There's no reliable way to tell without seeing the actual permit.

[Kennah]

115. MyrnaLoy says "the NRA fights to keep records sealed"

... without a shred of evidence.

Gunowners would gleefully have the light of day shined on the records of CCW revocations to look at the crimes committed. Just makes it that much easier to prove the point that CCW licensees as a group are über law abiding.

[MyrnaLoy]

119. uber?

[friendly_iconoclast]

123. ...but as the # of permit holders increases, the rate remains the same

Was there some other point you wished to make?

At least the Savonarola of Upper Canada changes up her arguments when she deigns to visit us stroppy Gungeoneers.

Mind you, her arguments are just as unsuccessful as yours- but at least she provides some small bit of intellectual challenge...

[PavePusher]

131. Shrilly pointless repetition proves nothing.

You really don't understand how statistics work, do you?

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

122. More evidence that...

...the true problems with the firearms issue is that many of the legislators involved are ignorant of the implications of and conflicts deriving from the bills they author. The more laws that appear on the books, the more conflicts and confusion will be generated for the courts to deal with.

Why is it that fed/state/local legislators who write contrary ignorant dribble into law are not prosecuted for malpractice and/or treason?

[Euromutt]

124. Because there's a different sanction on bad performance as a legislator

Namely that you risk not being re-elected. Unfortunately, even if you manage to vote an incumbent legislator out of office, that doesn't erase the crappy legislation he voted for.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

125. a failed reelection does not equal...

...Punishment for malpractice or treason in my book.

[Euromutt]

126. Fair enough, but I'm not sure that...

...merely drafting or voting in favor of crappy legislation constitutes malpractice, let alone treason, in the books of anyone involved in drafting and ratifying the constitution.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

128. true enough!

Crappy laws should result in no reelection; contradictory laws should result in malpractice; laws in conflict with the BoR is treason. (IMHO)

[friendly_iconoclast]

127. Ric Romero reports: "Sometimes licensees abuse their privleges. Report at 11."