Is Obama Ready To Take On The Gun Lobby?

[jpak]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dennis-a-henigan/is-obama-ready-to-take-on_b_899868.html

The Obama Administration has taken a modest, though useful, step toward curbing the torrent of assault rifles flowing from U.S. gun shops into the hands of the Mexican drug cartels. Hopefully, it reflects a new willingness by the President to take on the gun lobby.

The Justice Department announced it will go forward to implement its proposed requirement that gun dealers in four states bordering Mexico notify federal law enforcement authorities whenever there is a multiple purchase of certain semi-automatic rifles. It is now clear that the sickening Mexican drug violence is fed primarily by guns trafficked from U.S. gun shops. It is equally clear that semi-automatic assault rifles are the cartels' weapon of choice. The new reporting requirement will give the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) timely notice when someone buys 5, 10, 20 or even more assault rifles from a dealer. This information allows ATF to identify the individuals who are likely functioning as straw buyers for the cartels, giving law enforcement a chance to arrest the traffickers, and interdict the guns, before they get to the border.

Of course, the National Rifle Association (edit - morans) is in full lather about the new rule, promising a lawsuit and sending its lobbyists on a beeline to Capitol Hill to get Congress to block the rule from ever taking effect. Apparently the NRA wants to ensure that when a straw buyer walks away from a border state gun shop with 10 AR-15 assault rifles, that transaction will remain a dirty little secret between the buyer and the dealer. That is, until one of the guns is used against a Mexican police chief and the gun eventually is traced back to the U.S. gun shop.

In the recent hearings convened by Rep. Daryl Issa (R- edit-moran CA) on an ATF anti-trafficking operation dubbed "Fast and Furious," Issa and the NRA were stung by the testimony of one of Issa's own witnesses, an ATF agent from Phoenix who told Issa's committee that the proposed rifle multiple sale reporting rule would be a valuable new tool against trafficking. Given that the "Fast and Furious" operation has come under fire because ATF may have allowed guns to "walk" into Mexico, instead of stopping them before they got there, it seems odd that the NRA and other ATF critics also would object to a reporting requirement that would give ATF a better chance to stop trafficked guns before they cross the border.

<more>

Sic 'em Mister President - make them eat their peas.

:patriot:

[ileus]

1. Mexico needs to stop illegally importing our guns...

Mexico needs to get a handle on their drug gangs and stop taking our firearms across the boarder.

Every firearm that sneaks across the boarder is one less gun we have here....it's time to reverse this trend if it's actually happening.

[RaleighNCDUer]

4. Huh?

US guns going across the border is causing them horrendous crime problems, so those guns should stay here where they decrease crime?

I love NRA logic.

[TheWraith]

10. Arguing that their crime is our fault is just as stupid as saying they're stealing our guns.

The reality is that US guns are utterly irrelevant to the real problem of the Mexican cartels, since they use military-grade gear not available to the public.

[RaleighNCDUer]

11. Strawman. 10% of their weapons are military grade. It is the other 90% that

we have some control over.

And no, I'm NOT saying that 90% of their weapons come from the US - it has been clearly demonstrated that only about 20% does. That 20%, as part of the 90% non-military grade weapons, we can stop, or at least slow down by doing what we can to stop straw purchases.

And if you think 20% is irrelevant, how would you like a 20% cut in your paycheck?

[TheWraith]

12. Do you have a citation for that? Because I'm fairly certain it's completely untrue.

Why, exactly, would cartels that can import cocaine by the shipping container full have to go and purchase civilian guns at retail in other countries?

And where besides the US do you imagine that they would procure such guns? There aren't a lot of booming civilian firearms industries in Latin America, but you CAN buy illegal arms shipments there, or from China. Military grade weapons, of course.

[RaleighNCDUer]

15. Just because you can imagine it, that doesn't make it true.

The most popular, and most common weapons the cartels have are semi-auto "assault weapons" - mostly AK knockoffs - and .380 handguns.

You do understand that a basic component of criminality is laziness. What is more effective if seldom as attractive as what is cheapest and easiest. Arranging a shipment of military weapons from Kazakstan is FAR more expensive, complex and time consuming than giving a guy 15K and saying "run up to Laredo and pick up some guns".

BTW, remember that Border Patrol officer who was shot? That was with a US bought semi-auto rifle.

[Hoopla Phil]

17. That border patrol officer that was shot. The rifle used was

smuggled by the ATF. Or rather, the ATF ORDERED the FFL to complete a straw transaction that he did NOT want to do.

I note that you have yet to site your assertion. Why is that?

[RaleighNCDUer]

18. OK, here's one - you should like it. It debunks the 90% myth.

http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20110209-mexicos-gun-supply-and-90-percent-myth

(and that's 'cite' not 'site')

And here's another - this one does perpetuate the 'assault rifle/assault weapon' conflation, but it does specifically list these semi-auto military styled knockoffs as being favored by the cartels. Why would the 'favor' semi-auto if full auto military weapons were so easily come by?

http://politicalcorrection.org/blog/201107060006

[RaleighNCDUer]

20. how about this one?

http://gawker.com/5531361/the-milenio-cartels-diamond+studded-gun-cache/

Of the 38 weapons found, 3 - the MP-5 and the two AKs - MIGHT be full auto.

BTW - if the AFT ORDERED you to complete a straw purchase, wouldn't you protest emphatically - particularly if you were in the habit of allowing them? Of COURSE he "did NOT want to". When the ATF makes that request NO honest OR dishonest dealer would 'want' to.

[Hoopla Phil]

27. You're really not up on this issue are you.

The FFL suspected the straw purchase, called the ATF to inform on the transaction and THEN was ordered to make the sale. The ATF is complacent if not culpable in the border patrolman's death. I find your anecdotal citations amusing but not very telling of anything. (anecdotes are not data) Mexico has not, and will not give a complete listing of all weapons seized much less break that list down into type of firearm and/or explosive. (yup, they have seized lots of explosives too - I'm sure purchased at US gun shows with no questions asked.

The reality is, most of the weapons cartels are getting are coming from south of their country and from the Mexican military itself.

[TheWraith]

19. Again, you're simply asserting something, not offering any proof at all.

Whereas there is ample proof of the cartels using fully automatic weapons and explosives that you cannot get in the US or anywhere else legally. Your own link that you posted two messages down shows this, referring to their use of machine guns, grenades, and rocket launchers.

And who the hell said anything about Kazakhstan? Again, your own link refers to Guatemala, which is a lot closer than Kazakhstan. Not to mention, you could make the same distance argument to suggest that it would be laughable for Americans to buy something from China instead of from down the street.

[RaleighNCDUer]

21. Strawman. Just because they are using them, that doesn't mean they

are using ONLY them, or even MOSTLY them.

No, you didn't say Kazakhstan. You said China, which is next door to Kazakhstan. I admit, that is an unsurmountable difference.

The point is, the link CLEARLY says that the preferred weapons are semi-autos - not military weapons - and a significant number come from the US. In debunking the 90% nonsense, they confirm that there IS a problem.

Your level of 'proof' is the same as that which says because a few Saudi terrorists hijacked some planes using box cutters, ALL Saudis carry box cutters and have ill designs on our aircraft.

[TheWraith]

24. Keep moving the goal posts.

"No, you didn't say Kazakhstan. You said China, which is next door to Kazakhstan."

If by "next door," you mean "on the opposite border, several thousand miles away, and with no significant trade with the Americas."

"The point is, the link CLEARLY says that the preferred weapons are semi-autos - not military weapons - and a significant number come from the US. In debunking the 90% nonsense, they confirm that there IS a problem."

I very seriously doubt that. Even if your link is correct, and more semi-autos are used than autos, the semi-auto category includes almost all pistols. And you're quibbling over what the "preferred" weapon is, let alone taking the word of one source in one place to define the entire Mexican drug war? And all to try and claim that because they use some semi-auto weapons, most of which are not from the US, then therefore semi-auto weapons in the US are a threat? How does that make sense?

"Your level of 'proof' is the same as that which says because a few Saudi terrorists hijacked some planes using box cutters, ALL Saudis carry box cutters and have ill designs on our aircraft."

Uh, no, that's YOUR point, to wit that because some guns are smuggled from the US, that means it's common and there's a real threat.

[RaleighNCDUer]

26. Did youo miss my post, #11, which started this tangent?

I SAID 20%. 1/5th of ANYTHING is significant. 20% of anything is common enough to not be uncommon.

WHO is moving the goalposts?

[S_B_Jackson]

31. If the US is the souce for only 20% of the weapons, how is it you believe...

that we have control over 90% of their problem?

That's some mighty interesting calculating you're doing.

How many of that 20% that IS sourced from the US originated as direct sales to the Mexican government under the auspices of US State Department and Dept of Justice protocols?

Gunmen steal weapons from police complex in Mexico
By The Associated Press
Monday, September 27, 2010 at 1:01 p.m.

CIUDAD JUAREZ, Mexico — Gunmen broke into a police complex in northern Mexico on Monday and stole at least 40 automatic rifles and 23 handguns, authorities said.

Chihuahua state police spokesman Fidel Banuelos said the assailants subdued several officers guarding the state police offices in Chihuahua city and forced them to show the way to the armory.

Banuelos said 10 officers who were in the building at the time are being questioned. He said it's not clear whether the assailants are members of a drug cartel.
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/sep/27/gunmen-steal-weapons-from-police-complex-in-mexico/

Of course this single raid is but a drop in the bucket compared to the approximately 2000 weapons that the were sold during the whole Operation Fast and Furious fiasco....in which the Justice Department, ATF, FBI, DEA, and other agencies all deliberately allowed - often ORDERING FFLs to go through with sales, that they told agents they didn't want to complete - strawbuyers to purchase weapons, which they then failed to track, and allowed to walk across the border! Not only to Mexico, but now we're finding out that they were doing the exact same thing out of the Tampa office, with those weapons largely headed to Honduras.

Heads need to role in upper ranks of both the ATF and the Department of Justice....and while we're cleaning out house of incompetent officials, it would be nice if the Mexican government were to do the same house cleaning in their own thorougly corrupt officials in their military and law enforcement.

[krispos42]

2. If A, then B

If not A, then not B.


"It is now clear that the sickening Mexican drug violence is fed primarily by guns trafficked from U.S. gun shops" ≠ "The Obama Administration has taken a modest, though useful, step toward curbing the torrent of assault rifles flowing from U.S. gun shops into the hands of the Mexican drug cartels"



Try again. I know you will.

[PavePusher]

3. "dirty little secret"?!

What a fucking bigot.

[PurgedVoter]

5. K&R

The NRA and pretty much all the other political organizations that hang out at gun shows, have been attacking Obama full out since his nomination. A surge in their attacks would be rather hard to notice.

There is no reason that the NRA should have any influence on the President at all, considering that the have never paused in their rhetoric or shown any respect for the person or office.

[PavePusher]

7. "all the other political organizations that hang out at gun shows"?

WTF does that even mean?:shrug:

[PavePusher]

6. Where in the fuck....

"allow the continued importation of shotguns with military features like mounts for grenade-launchers"

...did he pull that from?

[TheWraith]

13. His ass. Same place they pull stuff like "armor piercing bullets," "heat seeking bullets,"

"shoulder things that go up," etcetera.

[ileus]

14. They make shist up because they know their supporters bite on hyperbole.

[Hoopla Phil]

8. First thing the president should do. Halt the gun smuggling by the ATF.

Then put them on trial for their alleged illegal activities.

[spin]

22. That's what I would do if I were President ...

and that is exactly what I would have expected Obama to do when I voted for him.

He did disappoint me on the healthcare issue by not showing more leadership and unfortunately it looks like I will be disappointed by the way he handles this ATF scandal.

Supporting a fair investigation to find out all the details and firing those who were responsible, if indeed they did insist that gun dealers sell weapons to known straw purchasers, is the most logical and sensible approach. Ignoring the scandal or attempting to cover it up is the worst path to follow.

The lesson of Watergate is that a relatively small event can grow and grow until it becomes a major problem that can destroy a President. At this point this screw up isn't attracting all that much media attention, but it seems to grow in importance day by day. Already people have died or been injured by the firearms that the ATF allowed to "walk." These firearms will leave a long bloody trail both in Mexico and the Untied States in the next few years.

I don't believe that Obama was involved or approved of this operation. As I have said, he should support a fair and unbiased investigation to find out all the details even if the trail leads to Eric Holder. People have been murdered because someone in our government allowed these weapons to be sold knowing that they would end up in criminal hands. This is absolutely unforgivable. The end does not justify the means.

[MrDiaz]

9. Really want to know why?

Google "ATF Fast and Furious", and newly discovered "Operation Castaway." If you really want to see how they are getting all the guns. Our government is supplying their gangs with firearms, not only in Mexico, but also the Hondurans as well. How about a logical response from the gun haters on this issue?

[Katya Mullethov]

16. By any means necessary

I would much rather they use the ballot box instead of the cartridge box , but never expected anything less .

[friendly_iconoclast]

23. It's a shame to see DUers endorse security theater....

...because any straw buyer with an IQ above room temperture has already figured out that this proposal can be evaded by a nice

in-state road trip to purchase one gun per gun shop, repeated at suitable intervals.


But since TPTB claim to be Doing Something, and that 'Something' accords with the prejudices of certain people, it is

not looked at with a critical eye by those same people.


Security Theater- Promulgated by the cynical, and taken at face value by the gullible....

[DonP]

25. Yeah, right after he closes GITMO and pulls all the troops out of Iraq and Afghanistan

It's nice that somebody actually thinks he's going to follow through on campaign promises.

You may want to go up to the GD forum and get in line behind the GITMO, Iraq, Afghanistan, Civil Trials et. al. people and wait for your big gun control push.

In the meantime ... we'll settle for one spanking after another at the state and local levels and watch the BATFE and Holder tap dance around testifying in F&F.

[spin]

28. He may in order to divert attention from the ATF scandal...

which might prove to be a big mistake in the long run.

[east texas lib]

29. So you're saying ATF should be given better tools to stop itself from acting illegally?

ATF walks the guns across the border thereby facilitating a gun crisis and then asks for new regulations because there's a "GUN CRISIS". So you are all in favor of the increased regulation yet you completely ignore the illegal activity by OUR OWN GOVERNMENT that led to the regulatory proposal in the first place. Congratulations, there's a place for you at BATF or The Dept. of "Justice"! President Obama taking on the gun lobby?!! If the President doesn't can every asshole that had anything to do with authorizing this idiotic affair from Holder on down then he has effectively BECOME the "gun lobby"! Do you like crow with your peas?

[SSDA]

30. Obama needs to clean u his own admn first.

ATF, doj, FBI, DEA have a lot of explaining to do.

[Ragnarok]

32. All this is going to accomplish...

...is to push certain States to hold the Fedgov in yet greater contempt. Eventually, the States are going to just start selectively ignoring the hackneyed "Commerce Clause" as the Fedgov blanket excuse for regulating whatever it wants. Many States are already working on blueprints for State-centric Firearms Licenses for dealers and manufacturers, to supplant and obsolete the FFL system for intrastate firearms sales. People are realizing through the many new and successful (but fragmented) CCW laws, that States are more than capable of enacting firearms related legislation that is both appropriate and acceptable to their specific area, while making provisions for out of State residents to move between States in a comfortable manner with little hassle over guns.

Look to see (if the country doesn't collapse) a call for the end of the ATF and FFL system within the next 5 to 9 years (depending on how 2012 goes). It's success can't be predicted, but I'd wager a movement will begin to materialize. A national background check system such as a civilian NCIS option really makes FFL's obsolete, and thus their regulators obsolete as well. The States, and not the Fedgov, are already the apparatus which determine whether specific Class III items (full auto, suppressors, short barreled rifle/shotgun/etc) are legal in State anyhow. The ATF is redundant, and so will FFLs be soon as well.