United Nations Push for Gun Control Treaty Continues

[Hoopla Phil]

Up till now all has just been speculation on what evil may be lurking in this proposed treaty. Now some details are coming out of the preliminary meetings and 2A proponent's fears were well founded it appears.

"The ATT will, at the very least, require gun owner registration and microstamping of ammunition. And it will define manufacturing so broadly that any gun owner who adds so much as a scope or changes a stock on a firearm would be required to obtain a manufacturing license."
http://www.ammoland.com/


Many speculated that the devil in the details would be in licensing requirements (and the fees for those licenses). It looks like that is going to be the rout they take.

[Ragnarok]

1. It's a shame...

...I lost all of mine in that freak boating accident. New worst job in the USA: wearing a Blue Helmet in rural America if this ever comes to pass.

[slackmaster]

2. Treaties have to be ratified by 2/3 of the United States Senate

"The ATT will, at the very least, require gun owner registration and microstamping of ammunition...."

That is sufficient to make ratification a non-starter.

[Hoopla Phil]

4. Yep (or is that yup?). I don't see the ATT being ratified. What I found

most interesting is that they did exactly as "some" predicted they would. Hit you for a license for anything and everything and then make that license very expensive to boot. I'm very glad that it being a treaty we wont see any 2:00am amendments.

[SteveM]

68. Yeah, shades of the Ol' South.

[Katya Mullethov]

3. Ahahaaaa....... and a rout it might be !

Canada wants a "sporting arms" exemption and the knobs drafting the treaty got all wrapped around the axle that they would introduce such a "poison pill" and accused them of goin' all parochial on their ass .

lol

[Hoopla Phil]

5. LOL, Yeah, don't you know that there is no difference between a "hunting rifle"

and a "sniper rifle"? It really does show what the true motive here is doesn't it?

[SteveM]

69. "Sporting Arms" exemption? Like a "make my day" .44 magnum revolver?

[spin]

71. A .44 magnum revolver is an excellent handgun for hunting game ...

such as deer and wild hog.

Suitable game

The .44 Magnum is well-suited for game up to elk size. With precise shot placement and deep penetrating cartridges it has even been used to take the largest of game, including Cape Buffalo. Publisher Robert E. Petersen took a record setting polar bear with a .44 Magnum.<8><20> It has even been used against elephants with success.<21>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.44_Magnum

[SteveM]

73. I'm a little old for it, but folks who do use them seem quite serious...

about it. One guy at the range was shooting a Ruger .44 mag with full loads and a scope, and blowing away the bull's eye at the longest range provided. Boy, he had a way of "letting," if that's the word for it, the gun recoil up 2-3 feet, twisting his wrist about 90 degrees. But he calmly re-acquired the target and put another round in.

[PavePusher]

6. Seems to be a bunch of unrec'ers out there who actually want the Civil War this would kick off. n/t

[Euromutt]

7. I'd have like it if the articles had external links

In this day and age, I've become more than a little leery of some website saying "so-and-so says X" without linking to it.

However, assuming the info from both the GOA and SAF is correct, I'm more than a little dismayed by the fact that a Programme of Action, now a prospective treaty, that was intended to hamper the supplying of small arms and light weapons to organized crime, terrorists, and rogue regimes appears to have been thoroughly hijacked into a scheme to obstruct legal private firearms ownership.

This kind of garbage will be the undoing of the UN at some point.

[Hoopla Phil]

8. Some more information. Gun manufacturer's would be taxed to fund "Victim Assistance"

Another egregious proposal is the Victim Assistance proposal. (VI, F) This provision is one that has been presented repeatedly at Programme of Action and Conference of Parties meetings. Many African, Southern American, Central American and Caribbean countries have proposed that manufacturers contribute to a fund based on their sales. Alternately they would assess fees on countries based on the value of its arms exports.

http://www.ammoland.com/2011/07/14/un-small-arms-treaty-calling-for-micro-stamping-style-marking-of-all-firearms-ammo/

[Euromutt]

10. I have a counter-proposal

To quote Nikola Koljević paraphrasing Douglas Hurd talking to the Bosnian Serb government in June 1994:

You cannot say "no." And please do not say "yes, but." But you can say "yes, and."

This is my "yes, and," namely that all such proposed levies on arms manufacturers be paid for by a special surcharge on arms sales to any and all national governments supporting the Victim Assistance proposal. Let's see how they like it then.

[PavePusher]

23. How about making criminals pay for the damage they do?

Shocking concept for some here, I know....

[Philippine expat]

9. I doubt it would be ratifyed by the Senate

and I see it leading to loud calls for the US to leave the UN.
I'd even start the local chapter

[Hoyt]

14. Right wingers have opposed the UN for years - Can't stand the thought of the US having to cooperate.

[eqfan592]

27. Cooperate? Not a problem.

Give up our national sovereignty? Not a chance.

[oneshooter]

30. Sounds to me like he is willing to give up our national sovereignty

in the name of gun control.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[SteveM]

70. Precisely.

[struggle4progress]

11. I suppose it's unsurprising international arms merchants would oppose the Arms Trade Treaty

The noise from the NRA gang is entirely shameless: the ATT is about international arms transfers, and it's about controlling the completely uncontrolled trade that fuels many civil wars, for example

[Hoopla Phil]

13. Who are the international arms merchants you refer to?

The NRA is dead on in their opposition to any ATT provision that dictates governance over firearms that are in this country legally.

[struggle4progress]

15. Gallery of international arms dealers

Since the end of the Second World War, tens of millions of people have been killed by conventional weapons, mostly small arms such as rifles, machine guns and rocket-propelled grenade launchers ... Low-tech, handheld weapons and explosives do the vast majority of the killing today. There are more than 550 million small arms currently in circulation, many of them fueling bloody civil strife ... In most cases, the countries involved in these conflicts have been the subject of international embargoes imposed by the United Nations and other organizations. In some cases, major powers want to supply the side they favor in the conflict but do not want their "fingerprints" to be discovered ... Against this backdrop of embargoes and clandestine international politics, a specialized group of arms dealers emerged during the Cold War. Their role was to ensure that responsibility for the death and destruction could not be traced directly to the supplier ...
http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/stories/sierraleone/breakingnews.html

[struggle4progress]

16. Global transfers of major conventional weapons sorted by supplier (exporter), 2010

<pdf:> http://www.sipri.org/databases/armstransfers/recent_trends/Exporter-2010.pdf

[struggle4progress]

17. Arms Transfers: States Love Secrets, But We Want the Facts

July 12, 2011 at 5:05 PM
By Alaphia Zoyab, an Online Communications Officer from Amnesty’s International Secretariat.

All governments say they want to stop the flow of illicit arms, but listening to many of them at the UN today, it became clear that not many are willing to do anything about it.

This is because it will involve much greater transparency on how they report on arms transfers and this immediately makes governments uncomfortable.

Amnesty International’s findings show that the biggest source of illegal arms is through diversions from legal stockpiles and authorised trade. However, because current reporting by governments on imports, exports and arms transfers is so poor, it is near impossible to establish where and how deadly weapons are getting diverted.

So if States want to be able to find out how this is happening and put a stop to it, then they have to commit to greater overall transparency by reporting publicly. States can’t claim “confidentiality” due to security needs on the one hand and miraculously expect illegal arms transfers to stop on the other. It’s not a one way street ...

http://blog.amnestyusa.org/united-nations/arms-transfers-states-love-secrets-but-we-want-the-facts/

[struggle4progress]

18. Why we need a global Arms Trade Treaty

Every day, millions of people suffer from the direct and indirect consequences of the irresponsible arms trade: thousands are killed, others are injured, many are raped, and/or forced to flee from their homes, while many others have to live under constant threat of weapons.

The poorly regulated global trade in conventional arms and ammunition fuels conflict, poverty and human rights abuses. The problems are compounded by the increasing globalization of the arms trade – components being sourced from across the world, and production and assembly in different countries, sometimes with little controls. Domestic regulation of the arms trade has failed to adapt to these changes.

While existing national and regional controls are important, these are not enough to stop irresponsible transfers of arms and ammunition between countries ...

The Treaty must be an international, legally binding instrument based on States’ existing obligations under international law. It must be properly implemented to reduce the human cost associated with the uncontrolled trade in conventional weapons and ammunition. It must establish binding criteria for analyzing international arms transfers on a case-by-case basis, and clearly determine when an arms transfer is prohibited ...

http://www.oxfam.org/en/campaigns/conflict/controlarms/why-we-need-global-arms-trade-treaty

[one-eyed fat man]

22. Wait a second??

Are all these illicit military grade weapons being traded all over the world going everywhere but Mexico? The drug cartels are reduced to paying retail for civilian knock-offs in Arizona?

[struggle4progress]

24. You will limit your understanding, if you demand the world be reducible to such soundbites

[gejohnston]

74. you know the cliche about pots and kettles?

It applies here.

[struggle4progress]

19. UN initiates arms trade agreement (BBC 2006)

Friday, 27 October 2006, 08:36 GMT 09:36 UK

A United Nations committee has voted overwhelmingly to begin work on drawing up an international arms trade treaty.

The measure would close loopholes in existing laws which mean guns still end up in conflict zones despite arms embargoes and export controls.

It could also stop the supply of weapons to countries whose development is being hampered by arms spending.

Only the US - a major arms manufacturer - voted against the treaty, saying it wanted to rely on existing agreements ...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6088200.stm

[struggle4progress]

20. The decades-long battle to catch an international arms broker (New Yorker 2010)

The Trafficker
The decades-long battle to catch an international arms broker.
by Patrick Radden Keefe February 8, 2010
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/02/08/100208fa_fact_keefe#ixzz1SJqspjaT

[struggle4progress]

21. The Stoner Arms Dealers: How Two American Kids Became Big-Time Weapons Traders

And how the Pentagon later turned on them
By Guy Lawson
March 16, 2011 9:00 AM ET

The e-mail confirmed it: everything was finally back on schedule after weeks of maddening, inexplicable delay. A 747 cargo plane had just lifted off from an airport in Hungary and was banking over the Black Sea toward Kyrgyzstan, some 3,000 miles to the east. After stopping to refuel there, the flight would carry on to Kabul, the capital of Afghanistan. Aboard the plane were 80 pallets loaded with nearly 5 million rounds of ammunition for AK-47s, the Soviet-era assault rifle favored by the Afghan National Army.

Reading the e-mail back in Miami Beach, David Packouz breathed a sigh of relief. The shipment was part of a $300 million contract that Packouz and his partner, Efraim Diveroli, had won from the Pentagon to arm America's allies in Afghanistan. It was May 2007, and the war was going badly. After six years of fighting, Al Qaeda remained a menace, the Taliban were resurgent, and NATO casualties were rising sharply. For the Bush administration, the ammunition was part of a desperate, last-ditch push to turn the war around before the U.S. presidential election the following year. To Packouz and Diveroli, the shipment was part of a major arms deal that promised to make them seriously rich ...

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-stoner-arms-dealers-20110316

[eqfan592]

25. spam much? nt

[struggle4progress]

28. #13 asked "Who are the international arms merchants?" #21 provides an example, as do

several other of my posts above

If you think I'm spamming, you should feel free to alert the mods

[eqfan592]

29. You could have easily compiled all of this into a single post.

And saved the thread a great deal of clutter.

I don't use the alert button except in situations where somebody is being egregiously offensive, but that won't stop me for calling somebody out, either.

[Hoopla Phil]

32. You for some reason seem to have been under the mistaken belief that the NRA

represents international arms dealers. I hope you now understand that the NRA represents American citizens.

[struggle4progress]

35. NRA Gets Millions From Gun Industry

WASHINGTON - April 13 - The National Rifle Association (NRA) receives millions of dollars directly from domestic and foreign gun manufacturers and other members of the firearms industry ...

... since 2005 contributions from gun industry "corporate partners" to the NRA total between $14.7 million and $38.9 million. Total donations to the NRA from all "corporate partners"--both gun industry and non-gun industry--for the same time period total between $19.8 million and $52.6 million. The vast majority of funds--74 percent--contributed to the NRA from “corporate partners” come from members of the firearms industry: companies involved in the manufacture or sale of firearms or shooting-related products.

Despite the NRA's historical claims that it is not financially allied with the gun industry, including the current disclaimer on its website that it “is not affiliated with any firearm or ammunition manufacturers or with any businesses that deal in guns and ammunition,” NRA "corporate partners" include many of the world's best known gunmakers as well as such companies as Xe, the new name of the now infamous Blackwater Worldwide--known for its abuses in the Iraq war--which alone contributed between $500,000 and $999,999 to the NRA since 2005 ...

http://www.commondreams.org/newswire/2011/04/13-2

[gejohnston]

36. Wait, you are equating a

press release from an advocacy group with journalism and using it as a primary source? Do they still teach critical thinking in school? You know what my ninth grade composition teacher back in 1975 would have done to me for that? He would give me big red F and demand I bring it back signed by my parents.
Seriously, a press release from the intellectually honesty challenged VPC and Josh Sugarmann? The same Josh Sugarmann, coined "assault weapon" because:

Assault weapons’ menacing looks, coupled with the public’s confusion over fully-automatic machine guns versus semi-automatic assault weapons –anything that looks like a machine gun is assumed to be a machine gun– can only increase the chance of public support for restrictions on these weapons.

How about I bring some GOA press releases?

[struggle4progress]

57. LOL. The OP is from the hysterical blog "ammoland." And from the link I gave, you can access

a careful and relevant report

[gejohnston]

59. a report cranked out by the very hysterical and intellectually dishonest VPC.

I could not help but notice the "report" dropped in an irrelevant (if accurate)shot at Harlon Carter being convicted of murder at 16. One question, how does one go from being convicted of murder to joining the Border Patrol? How does one ultimately become director of a law enforcement agency after being convicted of any crime at any age?
Did the Canadian National Firearms Association pay the Canadian diplomat to demand a sporting weapons exemption?

[struggle4progress]

63. In discussing an NRA award, an accurate footnote about the man for whom the award is named, does not

seem to be proof of intellectual dishonesty

Perhaps if you had read the entire footnote, and knew something about Texas in that era, your question might have been answered

As far as I can tell, the facts are these:

Carter, in 1931 Laredo, came home and found his mother upset because some Mexican-American kids had been outside earlier. He picked up a shotgun, walked around until he found them at a swimming hole, and demanded they come with him. They refused, so Carter shot fifteen year-old Ramon Casiano in the chest. Carter was charged, convicted, and served two years in prison before his conviction was overturned on the grounds that the trial judge's jury instructions had been incomplete. The prosecutor chose not to refile charges

So as the footnote accurately indicated: "His conviction was .. overturned on a technicality."

This story is a textbook case of period racism in Texas: the white woman upset by brown-skinned people and the immediate violent reaction to "protect" her. The murder conviction occurred in a local court: the Hispanic community had not been completely disenfranchised in the border regions. But like many racist killers in that time, Carter finally walked: on appeal, in a court further from the border, racist politics dominated

Carter got into the Border Patrol in part because his father Horace B. Carter was one of the original federal agents tasked with border enforcement in 1924. Beginning in the late 1920s, there was a racial purge of Mexican-Americans from the ranks of the border enforcement agents; they were replaced by whites with more "mainstream" racial views. So Carter "qualified" doubly: he was "family," and he didn't mind killing Mexican-Americans

[gejohnston]

75. Since virtually everything else the VPC is intellectually dishonest

about, I have reason to question the accuracy of the claim. Like the carved art boutique and decoy store being linked to Hamas and the IRA, which is crap, that may be too. May be true or it may not be. I would like to see primary source documents. Court transcripts would be nice. Until then, I have to look at it the same as I would anything else VPC and Brady does.

Others pointed out the various problems with the "report" that I noticed that you did not even try to question. I was simply skimming the pages and the one about Carter jumped out at me.

[struggle4progress]

77. From his NYT obit:

Harlon B. Carter, Longtime Head Of Rifle Association, Dies at 78
By BRUCE LAMBERT
Published: November 22, 1991

... Mr. Carter was born in Granbury, Tex., and joined the rifle association as a junior member at the age of 16. In a quarrel the next year, he fatally shot a 15-year-old boy. Mr. Carter was convicted of murder, but the verdict was overturned by a higher court, which ruled that the trial judge's jury instructions had been incomplete.

The case was buried in the past until 1981, when a reporter asked Mr. Carter about it. At first he denied knowledge, then refused to comment ...

... Following in the footsteps of his father, he joined the United States Border Patrol ...

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/11/22/us/harlon-b-carter-longtime-head-of-rifle-association-dies-at-78.html

It's really not too hard to get the story

[gejohnston]

79. Difference version of the story.

VPC said murdered in cold blood out of racism and implied that he walked. In VPC's world view, an obvious case of self defense is vigilantism. In VPC's would view, the National Firearms Act of 1934 has a gun show loophole, and you can buy a machine gun with no questions asked because Al Qaida said so. In other words, I question the source.
Other places say he spent two years in prison before his conviction was over turned. If the higher court ruled that the jury instructions were not complete, what were they and what was needed to complete them? VPC version implied he walked out the door because he was white. Before I make claims about someone that I have never met, or of a case that took place before I was born, I prefer primary source documents. In history lingo, that does not include newspaper accounts. The trial transcripts would be nice.
Your would view seems to be attacking individuals instead of discussing questions about a treaty counts as rational discourse.

There is a difference between the story and the truth.

[struggle4progress]

80. Here's the footnote from the report: "... as a teenager, Carter was convicted of a shotgun murder.

as a teenager, Carter was convicted of a shotgun murder. The 17-year-old Carter shot and killed a 15-year-old
Latino youth in his hometown of Laredo, Texas. His conviction was later overturned on a technicality."

That pretty much matches what's in the NYT obit

[gejohnston]

81. Kind of

Maybe it is my combination ADD and INTP showing through, but details matter. There are the facts, and there is the truth. Sometimes they are not the same. Kind of like lie by omission. Whenever propagandists use general terms like "technicality" without explaining what it was, I become suspicious. Partly because those "technicalities" are also called the Bill of Rights. Partly, as in this case, a claim about a person committing one of the worst crimes possible.
But Carter's past is not the issue, the rest of the "report" is. So what does Gander Mountain have to do with the IRA or Hamas again?

[Hoopla Phil]

65. Again, are you actually going to claim that the information provided in the OP is incorrect

or are lies? Seriously? They were at the meeting. The information being reported is in the treaty. I'm glad that the NRA is speaking out about this. I guess you wish everyone would just shut up and accept "what is good for them" right?

[spin]

72. The ATF "Fast and Furious" scandal has hurt what chances that this treaty ...

had of being ratified by the Senate. The scandal keeps growing day by day and is beginning to get media attention.

[Euromutt]

38. Do the NRA's "corporate partners" include Norinco, Izhmash and Zastava

Let's not kid ourselves, those conflicts in Africa aren't being fought with semi-auto-only AR-15 rifles and pump-action Mossberg 590 shotguns and 1911 pistols: insofar as they're being fought with recently manufactured weapons, they're being fought with selective-fire Kalashnikov variants, which nobody in the United States manufactures or imports. Those guns are made in China, Russia, the former Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, probably North Korea.

[friendly_iconoclast]

49. *That's* the glaring problem with s4p's thesis- lack of evidence

The NRA and its political arm, the NRA-ILA, are subject to disclosure laws, as the first is a non-profit and the second governed

by the Federal Election Commission. Where's the records of the alleged donations.


Of course, there might have been a coverup, but absent any evidence of same, I'm calling BS...

[struggle4progress]

50. So you couldn't be bothered to look at the pdf report from the link

http://www.vpc.org/studies/bloodmoney.pdf

:shrug:

[gejohnston]

52. See post 36, not repeating myself except to say

If we had a pdf link from the NRA should we expect you to believe it?

[Euromutt]

54. I read it, and I see nothing that contradicts an essential point

The corporate contributors to the NRA (among which the VPC includes the NRA's own museum and firing range, see pages 18 and 28) are all outfits that have an interest in the American private and law enforcement markets for firearms and shooting and hunting supplies. Somehow, I strongly doubt that Big Sky Carvers, Kamps Propane and the Loon Lake Decoy Company are involved in supplying automatic weapons and ammunition to African warlords, Jemaah Islamiya, FARC or Hezbollah. Neither are domestic gun distribution companies like Davidson's and Lipsey's.

When you're in the market for assault rifles (real assault rifles, the kind that can fire automatic, not so-called "assault weapons"), GPMGs, hand grenades, rocket launchers and medium (81 or 82mm) mortars, even Glock, Smith & Wesson, SIG Sauer and Ruger won't be able to help you. Pretty much the only NRA "corporate partner" who could supply those needs is FNH USA, but why would you go through them and have to deal with the scrutiny of the US Departments of State and Commerce, when you can deal directly with the Belgian parent company and get an export license from the regional government of Wallonia, like Ghaddafi did in 2009? The Walloons are desperate for business to the only part of their economy that isn't completely in the crapper. Oh, except RTBF reported rumors last year that FNH lost out on another contract with Libya, worth €100 million, to Russia.

So, do you want to point where in that tendentious VPC piece of crap the contributors to the NRA include Rosoboron Export (the Russian state arms export company)? Or Zastava Arms? Hell, the one American importer who sells Russian- and Serbian-www.norinco.com.cn/c1024/english/productsandservices/index.html|Norinco]? Oh, right, they can't even sell weapons in the United States any more, so who would they contribute to the NRA?

What we're asking is for some evidence that the "international arms dealers" who are funnelling small arms and light weapons to unsavory elements in Africa, Asia and Latin America also donate money to the NRA. So far, you haven't provided any.

[Hoopla Phil]

47. The O.P. is how the NRA and GOA is fighting against, and bringing to light

how this supposed international arms treaty about "international arms" is going to affect the INTERNAL gun laws of the U.S. You for some reason want to deflect from this and try to change the topic to something that it is not. NRA is fighting for the US citizen's right to keep and bear arms. If you have evidence to the other then start your own thread.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

48. one minor point...

[struggle4progress]

51. Hooie. The OP reflects fear-mongering nonsense, pushed by the gun industry, in an effort

to protect corporate profits, by rousing anti-UN Americans against international protocols for weapons transfers

[Hoopla Phil]

55. Are you actually going to claim that the information provided in the OP is incorrect

or are lies? Seriously? They were at the meeting. The information being reported is in the treaty. I'm glad that the NRA is speaking out about this. I guess you wish everyone would just shut up and accept "what is good for them" right?

[struggle4progress]

66. The article follows the wacko views of John Bolton, who is quoted. Bolton opposes

arms controls in general: one of his major "accomplishments" in the Bush era was derailing the NPT

Wacko views, like Bolton's, survive because they serve specific economic interests

The NRA tracks this stuff simply because it represents those economic interests: that's why groups like Xe (formerly Blackwater) give the NRA cash; and it's why the founder of Soldier of Fortune magazine was on the NRA board

[Hoopla Phil]

67. The article, had you read it, is from people that were ATTENDING the preliminary

meetings. It really is in the treaty. So again. . .

Are you actually going to claim that the information provided in the OP is incorrect or are lies (please site to evidence)? Seriously? They were at the meeting. The information being reported is in the treaty. I'm glad that the NRA is speaking out about this. I guess you wish everyone would just shut up and accept "what is good for them" right?

I don't know why you refuse to get your head around this point. This is from people that were AT THE MEETING. It really is in there. Weather Bolton had predicted this previously has nothing to do with it.

[struggle4progress]

76. Bolton is quoted in the article. He's been a real hit with the NRA gang in recent years,

since he sees conspiracies everywhere, from the Mexican border to the halls of international diplomacy and beyond

As you might remember, he's always been a rightwing anti-UN wacko: that's the reason the Bush warmongers wanted him as ambassador to the UN

I don't care whether Bolton ATTENDED or not: he's not a credible source on anything

[gejohnston]

78. I could say the same for anyone who claims that corporate profits are the motive

all of the time. Yes they are often, but not always. A war anywhere does nothing for Marlin Firearms' bottom line, which is what you are claiming. Bolton is a neo con and off his rocker, but wacko is not limited to the right.

[Hoopla Phil]

83. Bolton is NOT quoted in the article. Bolton has previously said

all semi auto's would be banned by the ATT. The WITNESSES to the meeting said that some semi autos would be banned.

For some reason you cannot accept that the ATT is going to try and meddle with the 2A rights of U.S. citizens. I cannot help you believe, I can only show you what the WITNESSES have reported. If you choose not to believe them that is your problem not mine.

[Euromutt]

84. Well, let's be precise

Apparently, some parties to the negotiations want to meddle with private firearm ownership. Whether it's a sufficiently large number to get the stuff into the final text is an entirely different matter.

[Euromutt]

56. Yep, gotta protect that lucrative international market for semi-auto-only AR-15s!

Take these guys, fighting in Ivory coast last March and April...





Oh, dear... every single weapon in those photos appears to be Russian design: we've got AK variants all round in both photos, a 14.5mm KPV in the top photo and a 12.7mm DShK in the bottom photo, plus an RPG round in the lower right corner of the top photo. The KPV specifically has only been manufactured by the Soviet Union and People's Republic of China, and there aren't too many other countries which have manufactured the DShK either. The only American thing about their equipment is the Woodland camouflage pattern of their fatigues, though the fatigues aren't actually USGI either.

[Glassunion]

64. And... What does the NRA exactly do with that money?

Let's see...
The Eddie Eagle program.
Law Enforcement/Military Training Programs.
Direct legal assistance programs.
The Whittington Center. 100% donation driven.
The National Firearms Museum.
Their Women's Programs(participation and program size is up over 40% since 2008)
The Competitive Shooting Programs.
Disabled shooting services
Hunting, Wildlife and Conservation programs
Over 70% of ALL NRA donations go to their youth training and safety programs.

You tell me, as the VPC report failed to mention. After they fund all of the above programs how much money is left over?

[Euromutt]

41. And what do *any* of those people and organizations have to do with the NRA?

Or indeed the Gun Owners of America or the Second Amendment Foundation? Almost all of the stuff you've listed describes inter-governmental sales, and insofar as private dealers are concerned, they seem to function primarily as cutouts for those same national governments to allow the latter to provide deniability and circumvent their own regulations. The NRA, SAF and GOA aren't objecting to the ATT because it'll make it harder for Norinco, Rosoboron Export and Zastava Arms to sell small arms and light weapons to the Charles Taylors and Robert Mugabes of this world.

[PavePusher]

26. It seems, from your cites, that the majority of the "arms deals" being made...

are directly by national governments, or persons sacntioned/contracted by national governments.

So, when are we going to cut off the rebels in Libya? The Eritreans? The people of Darfur? Etc., etc......

How do you link the NRA to any of that?

[Hoopla Phil]

33. "How do you link the NRA to any of that?" And that was the intent of my question.

I think someone was being intentionally obtuse.

[PavePusher]

34. How unusual for him... n/t

[Hoopla Phil]

31. Oh I get it now. You think the NRA represents these organizations and not individuals in the U.S.

They do not. I hope you now understand that the NRA has nothing to do with international gun dealing, they represent millions of American citizens. I'll say again that the NRA is dead on in their opposition to any ATT provision that dictates governance over firearms that are in this country legally. Do you oppose this? If so why?

[Euromutt]

39. That's what the treaty is *supposed* to be about, yes

But if the cited press releases from the GOA and the SAF are accurate, and certain parties to the negotiations are agitating that "national control lists<s> of those items subject to this Treaty" (see Chairman's Draft Paper - Implementation, item A. Exports 2.) should comprise registration of privately owned firearms and microstamping of ammunition not intended for export, and other measures that would affect legal private gun ownership not related to international trade in small arms, then we could be looking at the international equivalent of the Congressional practice of masking ugly legislation under names like the "Puppies and Orphans Protection Act of 2013."

[Cool Logic]

12. Too bad for them that UN Treaties to not usurp State laws.

[happyslug]

37. Treaties can USURP state law.

See the Supremacy Clause Article VI, Second paragraph:

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html#Article6

In the early 20th, the US Government passed a law regulating hunting of birds, the US Supreme Court ruled such a law was unconstitutional for the regulation of wild game and birds was reserved to the states. A couple of years later the same Supreme Court with the same members ruled a TREATY with Canada and Britain that covered the same bird species with the same restrictions was ruled to be constitutional on the sole grounds it was a product of treaty.

Today the first decision would NOT be followed by today's Supreme Court, for the court will defer to Congress on the issue of what is Federal and what is a State Area of law. On the other hand, the Second decision, that a treaty entered into by the Federal Government can overcome what even is a reserved state power is still the law of the land.

I also do NOT expect the President to sign or the Senate to ratify the proposed treaty, but that is a separate concept then the concept that treaties CAN usurp state law.

[Euromutt]

40. I think Cool Logic meant "state" in the sense of "national government"

As in "states party to the treaty." And it is true that, as long as the UN continues to defer to national sovereignty in all matters not covered under Chapter VII of the Charter, no treaty can be made to be binding upon countries that haven't ratified it.

[Cool Logic]

43. Logical deduction:

Article 6 - Debts, Supremacy, Oaths

Clause 2 - This Constitution and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof, and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the constitution or laws of any state to the contrary notwithstanding.

Clause 3 - The senators and representatives before mentioned, and the members of the several state legislatures, and all executives and judicial officers, both of the United States and the several states, shall be bound by oath of affirmation to support this Constitution.

In Clause 2, it must be noted that laws made in pursuance of "This Constitution" are laws which are made within the strict and limited confines of the Constitution itself. No federal, state, or international law; or rule or bureaucratic regulation; or state constitution, can supersede, or be repugnant to, "This Constitution."

The fedgov obtains its authority solely from the Constitution. Thus, it is not logical to conclude that it has the power to circumvent, via treaties, that which grants its authority.

In Clause 3, it is made clear that every elected official is bound by oath to support "this Constitution." Thus, it is logical to conclude that no elected official has the power to destroy that which they are elected and sworn to uphold.

Correspondingly, the powers granted by the Constitution cannot be construed to provide the authority to usurp, pre-empt or eradicate it.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

46. It appears...

...the ATT by virtue of measures contained therein conflicts with the Bill of Rights. Legislation derive in support of or devolving from such a treaty would be unconstitutional.

Yes, the anti-rights crowd will jockey for headlines. Yes, their patriotic American, freedom minded opponents will do the same.


I pity any political fools who mire themselves on the treaty side in this issue as it has *ALL* the earmarks of political suicide.


:popcorn:

[pipoman]

42. I believe the US citizens

have very little tolerance left for international treaties AND agreements which effect, in any way, our sovereignty. The GATT and NAFTA, along with several other relatively recent agreements are largely responsible for the "giant sucking sound" actually described by Perot, regarding our manufacturing base. Our representatives can be bought, our people can't. Heads on poles comes to mind.

[DWC]

44. The NRA pushes back.

Wayne LaPierre's statement to the UN at:

http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Read.aspx?ID=6993

Thanks in part to the NRA, this is one that will not get passed so we can find out what is in it.

Semper Fi,

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

45. Here in the US...

...we have the Bill of Rights. Nothing supersedes the Bill of Rights. The world needs to get over it.

[gejohnston]

53. I seriously don't picture many countries signing this other than

maybe Jamaica and the UK.

[gejohnston]

60. correction

UK is a major arms exporter along with us, France, China, and Russia. OK, so maybe just Jamaica and Palau, maybe.

[Euromutt]

61. You're on the right track

Just look for any country with no domestic arms manufacturing industry and a major internal violence problem, and you have a national government just itching to shift the blame for the fact that the country is a crime- and corruption-ridden shithole onto some external scapegoat. Jamaica, Trinidad & Tobago, Venezuela... Burundi, perhaps.

[friendly_iconoclast]

62. I doubt Venezuela- they produce fully-automatic AKs under license

But we all know that a Bolivarian socialist assault rifle is nowhere near as dangerous as one of those capitalist semi-automatic

ARs...

[Euromutt]

82. You're right; let me re-think that one

It would, after all, be awfully embarrassing for the Venezuelan government if the Colombian army captured a bunch of AK variants with markings traceable to Venezuela, wouldn't it? So in all likelihood, Venezuela would only support the treaty if they had no intention of actually complying with it.

[Remmah2]

58. Guns don't kill people

Governments kill people.